Hearthpwn

Quote from Platy >>

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

I would love to see a card like black vise from MTG that punishes large hand sizes. 

 Well, mindrender is one of them. It is nice to swap with someone with a big hand, so you have a bigger variety of options. Plus, if opponent is mage, most cards are discounted and you can throw cheap fireballs in their face. 

Cards like mukka which flood their hand with bananas or draw cards for opponents like the new Southsea Scoundred can also make them mill cards when timed well. I used Zephyr before to get Mukka sometimes. 

 Mindrender cost literally too much to actually punish hyper hands. You want to take key cards, disrupt your oponent strategy but work with only 7 mana most of the times (And your oponent with 10) is pretty...inefficientt. It works and is great against some combos but in general is too fair.

Quote from Bengalaas >>

Quote from HeilKise >>.

blablabla

 The problem however is not the concept of these cards, but their current iteration. Priest needs a little push to become competitive against aggro decks and then we can have games with a lot of back and forth and plenty of meaningful decisions.

You can already see that happen in tournaments where players have to bring more than two classes, so we get to see more evenly matched decks fight.

I prefer that to the times of mech mage, or the original Secret Paladin, when every game was just 6-7 turns of immense pressure and then "gg, go next".

 That is not the point. Warrior is as hopeless as priest in control terms. Where was the last time where you see a read midrange or control deck on ladder? No slow combo decks, not tempo decks with low curve, not decks that try to go all-in or go into the next match as the new rush warrior. A real get value on curve deck or a real control deck. Sinse...ah galakrond decks? they the were pretty lackluster. So its not a problem that can be solve just "pushing a little" some archtypes its about REALLY fix a lot of stuff that is being overpushed in this last 2 expansion (ignoring madness that really do nothing except tickatus).

Quote from Lanko >>

Quote from Bengalaas >>

The concept of aggro going all in and running out of resources and control being on the back foot all game until finally stabilizing is outdated and boring. Even MtG has moved away from it.

The more cards players draw, the more choices they will have to make, making the game potentially much more dynamic.

As a tradeoff, most control decks now have access to either early counterplay, absurd amounts of healing or both.

The biggest downside of taking the game into overdrive like that is that balancing cards is now harder than ever and any slight imbalance can snowball out of control.

 This pretty much.

Most removals come attached with a tempo swing as well, like Prize Plunderer, Xyrella, Samuro, even previously with Skipper + Brute, Altruis turns or Brooms. Or super cheap like Cascading or Death that are cheap enough to allow development.

Probably the Zoolock of the previous exp had legit too much card draw (and Rogue now), and Zoo now it's a deck with so little it loses to the first board clear that is used. A never ending torrent of vomit is not fun, but auto losing to te first board clear played it's not fun or compelling gameplay either.

 of this 3 only Samuro retains varely 50% winrate. Which means that they are not great anymore and is not a suprise. Xyrella was honestly pretty good the first weeks when people was not playing the M deck (i am not going to talk about the M class in this topic) or Paladin that much. Paladin was kind of weak to Xyrella and still is but lets see...at this point Desperate Prayers, the card that makes Xyrella work really well against aggro and high roll decks, is cut from most Priest decks (because it does nothing anymore). Xyrella is a very hard to set-up card and very obvius too. If on turn 3 you are hitting priest in the face pretty hand and he dont uses his hero power is obviusly because he is holding Xyrella and he needs to heal for more than 3 (cause Xyrella dont count over healing). Samuro is too slow in Warrior and Priest now, is mostly use in Paladin to counter Hunter because paladin has 0 cost buff without any set-up.

They can throw samuro in any turn and Prize Plunderer is not that good on the rogue decks even when penflinger is "ultra nerf" you can do the same damage with pen most of the times but you can hold the card in your hand so you can use it for multiple problems without wasting yours Shadowsteps. Funny enough removal cards attached to great offensive stats are doing pretty well because you know offensive stats win games when you never runout of cards in your hand.

Quote from Bengalaas >>

The concept of aggro going all in and running out of resources and control being on the back foot all game until finally stabilizing is outdated and boring. Even MtG has moved away from it.

The more cards players draw, the more choices they will have to make, making the game potentially much more dynamic.

As a tradeoff, most control decks now have access to either early counterplay, absurd amounts of healing or both.

The biggest downside of taking the game into overdrive like that is that balancing cards is now harder than ever and any slight imbalance can snowball out of control.

 The concept of making cards whic effects are literally: dealt direct damage and draw 1 card. Its also boring and a lot of games are moving on from that kind of aggro and divide Direct damage aggresive decks from wide-board aggro decks but not here for now. Which is a problem beacause that simple design reward straighfoward and very linear gameplan. In other hand healing and gain armor cards in this game do pretty little and are very inconsistent. Lets take Renew for example. Right now Priest dont have consistent AoE to dealt with the kind of boardstates that the game propose (right Defense stat minions with 3 to 4 attack for the most part of the game and only one of two minions with more than 5 attack. Condemn is a great card in a universe where your oponnent cant play 2 buffing spells before turn 5 in the same turn and push all the minions on board to 3 or 5 defense and 3 or 4 attack. But in this universe there is atleast 2 classes (hunter and Druid, specialy druid) that can do that which also plays around Hysteria cause playing Hysteria to kill 1 or 2 minions max, against aggro for 3 mana is kinda lose the game.

But you know what classes cant play around Hysteria and Condemn pretty well? Warrior and Priest. Which is hilarius and is one of the reasons why beat Warlock with this 2 is almost impossible even if you buff minions in the midgame (talking abot hysteria). Buut lets go back to the main topic.

So if aggro decks have efficient card draw and efficient straigfoward "push damage" cards. Control classes become useless. Cause Gaining HP is ALWAYS worse that push damage unless the oponent empty his hand. That is the main reason of the low cost of most healing spells in any card game. Healing is just delaying damage, dealt damage is winning the game. I could have an spell with the same effect than reno jackson without the body and it wont be broken, it would be bad in most cases unless the meta is really lacking of card draw, because 6 mana do nothing and restore all your HP is useless if my oponent still have 6 minions on board with 3 or 4 attack.  So either you make super broken defensive cards or you keep on check the power of proactive cards. You cant have both: weak defensive tools and strong proactive tools; and said that "is good because it feels bad go into top decks"

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@PetiteMouche

The problem is that what you said is good but dont work like that in reality. Let me explain: if all the classes have very good card draw them defensive clases or the less proactive clases (like shaman) will be weak forever. Why? Well i explain this in the first half of the post. Defensive tools are by default weaker even when they can feel busted in some scenarios, than proactive tools. In any game where aggro dont run out of cards and neither control does, aggro will win more than 60% of the time. Always. Unless is really, really hopeless in the lategame which is not the case becas right now late game for aggro is not bad at all neither. Like for example i never run out of cards with my main decks (Warrior control and Priest control) but that is not the problem when i lose a game. The problem is that my gameplan of healing, create one or two big units, kill the enemy units and end the game when i get to that point wont work when Demon hunter (just for put a very obvius example in this meta) has a weapon that let him buff his attack to infinite, then play a minion with great stats and rush, clear my taunt, clear my big unit and then attack my face with his ultra buffed hero attack and them with his 8/8 minion all that on the same turn. What i do to keep that in control? I kill the unit, recover as much HP i can and them he plays skull of guldamn and process to do the same in one or two turns and...i lose. With big taunts, with 25 points of healing, with my wincondition on board. I just lose, because he never will run out of face damage or cards in hand.

Quote from PetiteMouche >>

Card draw on its own is fine in my opinion, I don't mind if there is "too much" of it. It's always the worst feeling when you are in topdeck mode and the opponent isn't, and if one class that isn't warlock can draw their entire deck with ease, then all classes should be able to.

 

 Yeah but you need to look at this from a balance perspective. Its not funny when Hunter or Demon Hunter or Paladin go into top deck mode and they pretty much lose because of that (pretty rare situation btw). But...that is supposed to be the weakness of decks that go into hard aggresive mode. If you can hold infinite resources in your hand (like paladin) or just draw 2 cards into 1 card into 3 cards (like Demon Hunter) them...what is the point of playing to outlast them? cofcoformagebutidontwanttotalkaboutmageinthistopiccofcof . Like...that is how you beat those decks if your finishers are not comming or they are not fast enough? Its kinda hard for other classes like Warrior or Shaman to beat Demon hunter for example, when that class can get 10 Hero Attack damage with a 2 card hand and also draw cards in the process. Sometimes play big taunts seems like really pointless in this cases.