I don't watch GoT much. I only really like the Hound. I was satisfied with the Hound's end. It felt right. After all his suffering caused by his Brother, I can say with relative certainty that this was the best way for the Hound and the Mountain's story to end. Neither survives. The Mountain should thank his Brother for ending his imprisonment in that ghoulish shell. The Hound gets to press his Brother's face to the fire with this last clash, and I couldn't be happier with his this wrapped up.
I don't know what all is wrong with this current season, but a lot of people are complaining, so there must be something the matter. Sorry if you all are disappointed, but I got what I wanted, which is good enough for me. I'm not in a position to claim anything about the show in its current condition, aside from the Hound's end and how I feel about it. It just feels right to me.
Whether you like it or not - Dany's 'targaryen madness' was foreshadowed heavily in both hte books and show from almost the word go. If you were fangirling her all the way to the ironthrone...well I'm not surprised you feel slightly angry - anger is a common emotion among prize puddings. Maybe go back to complaining about how there is too much boob in show or something? (deal with it)
Just like much of the last two seasons, the episode was a bit truncated - but it was still the best ep of the season so far.
We at least i, are not angry because it happended.We angry because of the terrible writting that brought her there.Most of us book readers expecting this to happen, however the way it went down was absolutely appauling.This was the icing of the cake.This season has been a disgrace. Fans have made more coherend and interesting endings.
What happened is obvious, GRRM told them the basic events and how the story's general plot will conclude but not how it will go there.Mostly because himself did not know at the time.Then these overpaid noobs massacred the show as they are untallented and lazy and how no idea how to connect the dots.They could copy the best and most well written fan theories (which lead to the same conclusion btw),but nope!They had to smell thier own farts and subvert expectations...
They even have the audacity to make statements like this
After considering for a bit, I think I will write a bit of a dissertation here. If you make it to the end of this, I commend and thank you. This is important to me.
You guys remember the story of Icharus? Greek dude, wax wings, flew too close to the sun? Icharus is invoked, in most walks of life, as a cautionary tale. Be careful not to fly too close to the sun, or you'll fall a long way. But in the realm of art, Icharus's name carries a very different connotation.
Icharus was a fucking hero.
We don't remember safe 100 years later. We don't venerate safe. You guys know the movie Fight Club? Sure, it has flaws. There's no one on this planet who finds everything about that movie compelling. But tell me you don't remember the exact moment you first heard those fateful words: "Please return your tray tables to their full upright and locked position" as realization dawned on Edward Norton's face.
"But Shadow," you say, "are you really suggesting Fight Club is some work of art worthy of memory?" I'm saying, a crazy author wrote a crazy book, and some crazy investors turned said book into a crazy movie, and I'm fucking saying that all of you will hear your grandchildren calling someone all singing, all dancing crap of the world.
I'm saying sometimes the wax wings hold up.
Now, why does this post belong in a GoT thread? Because all of this criticism is not about GoT being bad or unwatchable. It's about knowing, not wondering, absolutely knowing, that the show could have reached for greatness and stayed away from the sun instead. Let's talk about a few examples where greatness was one wing-flap away (am I milking this metaphor enough for you?).
Let's talk about Cersei and Jamie Lannister's end.
I went back and researched the whole prophecy thing. The prophecy states that a younger, more beautiful woman (presumably Dany, though I don't go for teenagers) would come to replace her and Cersei would die "with her brother's hands around her neck". If you look at how Jamie held her as the ceiling collapsed, you see that the writers paid service to this prophecy. Now in general, I say bravo! 100% good way to subvert the assumptions of the audience. I was wrong earlier when I said they threw out the prophecy (I thought it said the brother killed her).
The problem is, can't we do this better? Cersei thinks Tyrion is going to strangle her. The first level of subversion would be for Jaime to do it instead. That's what I assumed was going to happen until ep. 4, when it became clear that they were not going to have Jaime change at all. He started the show doing horrible things for his sister, and ends the show giving up everything for the sister without any indication he cared about the terrors she brought on the world. Can't we do this better? Can't we make a valid show of him going to the Red Keep to kill her in order to protect his city. The same city he killed a king over before the story began. And maybe, with his hands at her throat, he realizes that she is what she is, but she is also a sister and a mother, and he stops. And then whatever happens happens, whether it's a crushing ceiling or dragon's fire or whatever.
Let's talk about Arya and the Hound.
I'm not going to rehash the issues with Arya killing the Night King a la One Punch Man. As with most plot lines they actually execute, the end result isn't the problem. The lack of build up is. But specifically with regards to Arya and the Hound heading to the Red Keep, and skipping the obvious issues with why the hell the Hound didn't have this conversation before they entered the city, let's talk. The conversation itself, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, Arya's softening toward the Hound and the use of his actual name "Sandor", was absolutely perfect. It might have been the single most gripping and true-to-form scene in the entire show, and I've been thinking about that statement for a while now.
But can't we pay this setup off a bit? Sandor says, "don't be like me. Do you wanna be like me?". And she actually listens. She leaves a name on her list unfinished in order to honor her friend's wishes. Sandor goes and gives us the Clegane bowl we always wanted . . . minus any stakes, but it still was awesome. But what happens to Arya? She's been told by her friend, "don't throw your life away. Survive." and she goes out into the streets and unwittingly leads a large amount of people to their deaths. Imagine with me, for a moment, if they didn't show Arya after one of the dragon's passes. They just left her fate unknown at the end of this episode. And then, in the final episode, she uses her disguise powers to get close to someone, maybe even Dany, and kills her. Only, when she does the telltale face reveal, she pulls off the fake face to reveal a horribly scared Arya, thus experiencing consequences for heroism for the first and only time of the show. Can you fucking imagine that moment? That moment would life in television history in a way that few have.
Ok, so if you've gotten this far, let's talk about Daenerys (whose name I was horribly misspelling yesterday). Full disclosure, Angry Joe's friend's idea was better than mine for how to do this, so I give him full credit for below (think the name is Alex).
I can't talk about this one in a vacuum of one episode. Rhaegal should not have died last episode. In order to set up the madness in a way that worked, she needed two children left at the start of this episode. By the way, of course she was going to turn into the mad queen. That has been basically assumed by book fans for years, and it is a great twist. But we can make this one better, without a doubt. Imagine with me that the fight started with two dragons. I don't care that she made it through a million scorpions, they could have written around that in half a dozen ways that would have made sense. Maybe the Unsullied launched a sneak attack on the fleet first, whatever, just do something that indicates the scorpions are out of action.
Tyrion releases Jamie and sets up the whole thing where the city will signal the surrender with the bells. All well and good. But who says that everyone in the Lannister army knows that is the signal for surrender? Maybe Jamie gets held up from spreading the word, and the events unfold like this:
Jamie tells the commander of the Golden Company to throw down arms and rings the bells. Daenerys brings her dragons to a halt on the city walls, listening to the bells. The Unsullied start celebrating. And then, that one asshole scorpion who manages to get its shit together sees a perfect shot, not at Rhaegal, but at Drogon and Dany herself. Not knowing the fight is over, one lowly crew of soldiers takes aim and fires . . . and Rhaegal throws himself into the path of the projectile, getting a shot through the chest and dying in front of Dany. Now come on folks, isn't that the build up we want to see? Isn't that a plausible reason why a mother would go insane?
Keep in mind, we're dealing with someone who has had very measured responses to horrible events in the past. People point to the crucifixions in Mereen as a sign of madness, but these are harsh times, and she didn't pin up one more noble than they did slave. When she lost Viserion, it was to pure evil. Obviously, she's going to go HAM on the Others (white walkers, whatever you show-watching plebs say). But, could she keep it together when her child dies AFTER A SURRENDER WAS CALLED? I don't know, but it makes a lot more sense than what we got.
Too much has been made of the subverting expectations trope. Let me be very clear. We expect to be entertained and stimulated. The literal definition of disappointment is "positive expectations not being met". Subverting expectations only works as a story-telling device when the writers are more imaginative than the audience, and can fulfill the base desires of the audience better than they can imagine themselves. In other words, it's the difference between Fight Club and The Last Jedi. Both are highly subversive, but I would submit that one is a lot more satisfying than the other.
I try to lead a very disciplined life, and part of that is not letting minor issues with no real consequences occupy a great deal of my time. Here, I have failed miserably. I care more about this show's failings than I should. I am, in fact, mad bro. To some extent, I make no apologies. We have too much of the ironic and edgy in us, these days. We can't sit back as a group and say what we all know: Art matters. Culture matters. And like it or not, works like this will influence the next generation of writers and directors. Learn from this. Tell your children better stories than we were told here. And take pride in your work.
We started watching as boys. Rise now as men of the . . . well, you get the idea.
Shadowrisen we had some heated ...debates... in the past but with this post, you earned my upvote and respect.Well written man, well written indeed.
To be honest i cannot fanthom why people defend this episode!Even my waifu morkimus is among them!THIS IS BLASPHEMY! THIS IS MADNESS!
The mad queen theory was one of the most intrigueing theories since forever, but the excecution had no redeming qualities whatsoever. Dany had no reason to snapp when she did.Had her other dragon die that moment, or any event to trigger her THAT specific moment, the thing would be plausible.But someone who cared and freed the masses all her life to take active action against them FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER is a complete violation of her character.
Every character was violated to oblivion.And do not bring the lack of time as an excuse.How many pointless scenes we had in the last 3 seasons?Fuck it!In this season alone the entire ep2 was a complete waste of screen time and budget.
Just read about the bran=night king fan theory and how well it brings everything together.Or how the dany will go mad queen.The fans had already given those poor excuse of writers plenty of material to work with.
This is not nitpicking.Game of thrones or the song of fire and ice, had never been about dumb fun. People including me have invested hundreds if not thousands of hours watching the show, reading the books and speculating.There are people who named their kids after characters of the show for fuck's sake.This was a bitch slap to the face to all of us just to subvert expectations.
Apparently both the writers and the scorpions contracted the stormtrooper disease. In last week they picked of a dragon easily while in this, they could not aim for shit.
Also the best army in the world got picked off like rabbits.Mkay...
I wont even bother about the characters. Everyone got as retarded as the writers.The mad queen theory was one of my favourites since i finished the books but the execution was a complete disappointment.
To anyone defending this episode, forget about the books.I advise you to read the most popular fanfictions. You will realise that amateur fans have done 1000 times better job than these overpaid failures.
The more i think about it, the more i hate this episode. I just hope our lord and savior Bolas invades the plane of westeros and kills everyone with his eternal army. This show has become a poorly made fanfiction anyway.
you do not need to be a decorated general to know not to a) plae your artillery on the front lines, b) send in your cavalry ina frontal charge against an enemy you can't see and that you know is made of relentless meatshields c) don't use the best infantry available as cannon fodder
If you want my idea of a strategy: Put the Unsullied as some sort of an unbreakable frontline, because in theory they should be able to hold the lind while you pelt them with the catapults who are positionened BEHIND the flammable wall. Then you have the DOthraki on the flanks to charge the zombies once they made first contact and then all you need is the dragons doing sweeping runs on the broader mass of the zombies.
and even with all of that there'S still a reasonable scenario where the defenders get overrun.
There, in 5 minutes I came up with a better solution than the overpaid writers
Exactly, i know that i may have become tiresome with this ,but people overastimate the advantage of numbers. Just think about it, what other advantages other than the sheer numbers the night king has?None!The living have much more organized and battle hardened army, they have the advantage of superior technology (better equipment, artilery, possibly use of wildfire etc), they have two weapons of mass destruction (dragons), they are capable of superior tactics (as the best of night king we have seen is just the order to advance and overrun...), they had the advantage of location and fortification, the time to prepare and most importantly the knowledge of the enemy (their weaknesses and goals)! Basically they had EVERY advantage other than numbers...Fuck it, a good general would win the war against the entire horde even when each casualty joins their ranks. History has proven that.
I do not want to sound like ass but you have to be braindead to like the episode. Anyone with basic knownledge of history, fuck it!Anyone who has played any rts games would have come with a better writing.
Since there's a lot of negativity here about the latest episode, I'm going to offer my own positive thoughts on it. A lot of it is in direct contradiction to what you guys found disappointing, so I don't expect agreement, but I figure maybe I can get you to like some part of it a little more =P
Battle Tactics: I'm sorry to say this, but you guys seem to have been expecting a battle between two armies. This was never going to be that - it was always an unstoppable force meeting a woefully underprepared wall, designed only to buy them enough time to lure the Night King in. We heard it all last episode when they talked about how they were going to die, and we saw it as early as after the Dothraki hoard were slaughtered in this episode, where Jon goes to stop Daenerys from raining fire on the encroaching hoard - neither Jon or Dany were meant to engage the undead army, their entire purpose was to kill the Night King. I think the futility of their defense and the gradual advance of the dead was really well done - apart from the terrible lighting, of course, thank god for Melisandre.
I won't answer to the rest of your comment, because it is a matter of preference and i respect that. Honestly i envy you for enjoying the episode. But here.."HERE IS WHERE YOU ARE WRONG"** In Dalaran's Aspirant Voice**
How they could be woefully underprepared? The northeners had months to prepare fortifications while knowing about the walkers as they knew since jon became king. Heck, even when dany and her army arrived, they had at best weeks, at worst days as we do know not how much time passes between the episodes. Do know now what fortifications, they could build with the manpower they had?I suggest you reading about the battle of Vienna. You will be amazed how many fortifications they made in a nick of time.
Plus, we are not talking about plebs here, were are talking about battle hardened army of unsullied and dothraki with the help of two weapons of mass destruction (dragons). Screw the kill the night king-everyone dies plot device. A competent strategist would even win the war against the entire horde with the time,army and tools they had at their disposal. I know, i know it seems an overstatement considering every casualty joins their ranks. But when you read about real battles with insurmountable odds, much much much worse than those of the film (yes they have happened), makes the writing seem evem more piss poor than it is.
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I finally found the time to watch the final episode.
Well at this point i got immunity to disappointment. I was expecting an rushed, stupid and full of plot holes ending...and got just that. Mkay.
https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-game-of-thrones-season-8-with-competent-writers
I wonder how much the number of signs will skyrocket after the final episode. :P
Welcome back my dear friend! Long time no see!
We at least i, are not angry because it happended.We angry because of the terrible writting that brought her there.Most of us book readers expecting this to happen, however the way it went down was absolutely appauling.This was the icing of the cake.This season has been a disgrace. Fans have made more coherend and interesting endings.
What happened is obvious, GRRM told them the basic events and how the story's general plot will conclude but not how it will go there.Mostly because himself did not know at the time.Then these overpaid noobs massacred the show as they are untallented and lazy and how no idea how to connect the dots.They could copy the best and most well written fan theories (which lead to the same conclusion btw),but nope!They had to smell thier own farts and subvert expectations...
They even have the audacity to make statements like this
'' Dany KinDa ForGoT tHe iRoN fLeEt'
Shadowrisen we had some heated ...debates... in the past but with this post, you earned my upvote and respect.Well written man, well written indeed.
To be honest i cannot fanthom why people defend this episode!Even my waifu morkimus is among them!THIS IS BLASPHEMY! THIS IS MADNESS!
The mad queen theory was one of the most intrigueing theories since forever, but the excecution had no redeming qualities whatsoever. Dany had no reason to snapp when she did.Had her other dragon die that moment, or any event to trigger her THAT specific moment, the thing would be plausible.But someone who cared and freed the masses all her life to take active action against them FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER is a complete violation of her character.
Every character was violated to oblivion.And do not bring the lack of time as an excuse.How many pointless scenes we had in the last 3 seasons?Fuck it!In this season alone the entire ep2 was a complete waste of screen time and budget.
Just read about the bran=night king fan theory and how well it brings everything together.Or how the dany will go mad queen.The fans had already given those poor excuse of writers plenty of material to work with.
This is not nitpicking.Game of thrones or the song of fire and ice, had never been about dumb fun. People including me have invested hundreds if not thousands of hours watching the show, reading the books and speculating.There are people who named their kids after characters of the show for fuck's sake.This was a bitch slap to the face to all of us just to subvert expectations.
At least the memes are great
Yeah, what makes this worse, is that stannis the manis died for this shit :(. Not only they killed him but they butchered his character...
Fuck it, Night King killing them all would have been a better ending.
Apparently both the writers and the scorpions contracted the stormtrooper disease. In last week they picked of a dragon easily while in this, they could not aim for shit.
Also the best army in the world got picked off like rabbits.Mkay...
I wont even bother about the characters. Everyone got as retarded as the writers.The mad queen theory was one of my favourites since i finished the books but the execution was a complete disappointment.
To anyone defending this episode, forget about the books.I advise you to read the most popular fanfictions. You will realise that amateur fans have done 1000 times better job than these overpaid failures.
Wow...this episode was even worse than the 3rd.
"If you think that this will have a well written ending...You haven't paid attention"
I even started to understand why our lord and savior Sherman loves ramsay so much. He would need only 20 good men to beat both night king and cersei.
Viewers: what do we say to good writing?
Show writers: not today.
The more i think about it, the more i hate this episode. I just hope our lord and savior Bolas invades the plane of westeros and kills everyone with his eternal army. This show has become a poorly made fanfiction anyway.
Aahh, a comment worthy of 1 post shock account!
Exactly, i know that i may have become tiresome with this ,but people overastimate the advantage of numbers. Just think about it, what other advantages other than the sheer numbers the night king has?None!The living have much more organized and battle hardened army, they have the advantage of superior technology (better equipment, artilery, possibly use of wildfire etc), they have two weapons of mass destruction (dragons), they are capable of superior tactics (as the best of night king we have seen is just the order to advance and overrun...), they had the advantage of location and fortification, the time to prepare and most importantly the knowledge of the enemy (their weaknesses and goals)! Basically they had EVERY advantage other than numbers...Fuck it, a good general would win the war against the entire horde even when each casualty joins their ranks. History has proven that.
I do not want to sound like ass but you have to be braindead to like the episode. Anyone with basic knownledge of history, fuck it!Anyone who has played any rts games would have come with a better writing.
At least this episode generated infinite memes:
Bran: -Omae mou shindeiru
Night King: -Nani?
**screeeeching**
Oh and guys, whenever you f*ck something up and feel useless, remember the Night King's generals and guards. :P
I won't answer to the rest of your comment, because it is a matter of preference and i respect that. Honestly i envy you for enjoying the episode. But here.."HERE IS WHERE YOU ARE WRONG"** In Dalaran's Aspirant Voice**
How they could be woefully underprepared? The northeners had months to prepare fortifications while knowing about the walkers as they knew since jon became king. Heck, even when dany and her army arrived, they had at best weeks, at worst days as we do know not how much time passes between the episodes. Do know now what fortifications, they could build with the manpower they had?I suggest you reading about the battle of Vienna. You will be amazed how many fortifications they made in a nick of time.
Plus, we are not talking about plebs here, were are talking about battle hardened army of unsullied and dothraki with the help of two weapons of mass destruction (dragons). Screw the kill the night king-everyone dies plot device. A competent strategist would even win the war against the entire horde with the time,army and tools they had at their disposal. I know, i know it seems an overstatement considering every casualty joins their ranks. But when you read about real battles with insurmountable odds, much much much worse than those of the film (yes they have happened), makes the writing seem evem more piss poor than it is.