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To go into a little more detail on this, let’s compare Tickatus to a card that (quite rightly) got nerfed recently, Boggspine Knuckles. Since I’ve hailed “just use Elysiana” as a control counter to Tickatus, while I was vehemently against the argument “just use Stickyfinger” as a counter to Boggspine, it would be hypocritical if I didn’t explain my reasoning.
Boggspine warped the entire game around it and almost everything was forced to tech heavily against it with 1 (or more often 2) Stickyfingers to combat it, including at the top level of ladder play. This is the mark of an overpowered card. When you look at Tickatus in the same light, it isn’t remotely close to achieving this. Any deck with an “attack my opponent” win condition can crush Warlock before Tickatus is even relevant or apply enough pressure to make playing him impossible. What we are looking at is a narrow deck archetype that has an INHERENT WEAKNESS to having their cards milled. Given that control decks are inherently weak to mill, it is a perfectly reasonable solution to run anti-mill tech in these decks to (significantly) improve a miserable matchup. This it not the same as 80% of field being forced to run heavy weapon tech because a weapon is so oppressive that barely anything can breach a 45% win rate against it without doing so.
Improvements to combo decks to make them more Tickatus proof are already being explored. Combo decks do not have to be 1 dimensional OTKs reliant on single legendary cards. Take a look at the current ETC Warrior lists for example. Players have forgone the pure version of deck in favour of an Enrage/ETC hybrid. This deck has a number of damage dealing combos, including Kor’kron Elite combos ranging from 12 to 28 damage, and techs in an ETC combo capable of dealing up to 42 damage under the right conditions. This shift is happening because the standard ETC control warrior had all its eggs in one basket, and disrupting ETC or playing round it by leaving your board sufficiently empty to deny enough rush minion attacks was extremely easy for slow decks to accomplish, and completely denied their only win condition. The result of the shift is a multi dimensional deck that can apply pressure in the early game and has tons of reach with a variety of late game combo plays, making it both significantly more difficult to get into a comfortable position to even drop Tickatus against in the first place, and significantly more difficult to disrupt simply by fucking a few random cards into the bin.
Better deck building and better play will show Tickatus up as the very reasonable card it is as the format develops.
Don't we all agree though that in a control/combo matchup (in combination with y'shaarj, of course) its effect is unfair and op, reducing the opponent's chances to win by roughly 75/80%?!?
Control players are refusing to main deck Elysiana, so no, this is not unfair in the slightest. A direct card for card counter exists and players are not using it. I laddered to legend this month exclusively with a control Shaman list that had no win condition except for fatigue. If Tickatus missed my Elysiana (he’s effectively only 1 in 6 to hit her each time he’s played and I would keep her in the mulligan and play double far sight to get to her ASAP), they had absolutely no chance to win because I could clear every single board and had up to 4 heals for 20 per game. As my deck was -10 +10, they fatigued sooner due to offset from life tap. I was more than happy with a 70% win rate in this matchup.
Warlock cannot have a late game control deck unless it has this kind of option, because life tap is counterintuitive to the deck’s win condition so without cards like Azari and Tickatus, warlock is limited to one old, shitty and boring aggro concept that they’ve had since the dawn of hearthstone (since apparently devs won’t allow handlock or any other decent midrange warlock deck to happen again for some weird reason).
As far as beating combo decks goes, I have actually always loved combo breakers in hearthstone because there is such limited disruption available. I like that Tickatus has a pretty much even shot at disrupting a combo. When you actually run the numbers, he is a lot fairer than Mindrender Illucia, who gives you significantly more control over your opponent’s win condition, and a significantly higher chance to hit it (especially as most current combos have a required set up or conditions that must be met before they work, you often know exactly when to play her, while Tickatus is mostly just random, late game vs C’thun being a rare exception).
What I would like to see, rather than a nerf to Tickatus, is a skill-based counterplay card released when Elysiana rotates (something akin to Dirty Rat from MSoG) as I do think he will become a toxic presence once his hard negator is removed.
First it’s not a joke. I’m assuming you are a warlock Tickatus player so I understand why you are defending it. Not everybody faces aggressive zoolocks, rogues or DH. I think the game matches you differently. You say that Thijs can beat gala warlocks but he does not represent the casual or normal player. Not everybody is a pro player.
My argument was for us players that play Control or combo decks. There is no deny that Tickatus as of now, is a problem for control and combo decks now and in future expansions.
BTW, I play standard. I don’t know about wild.
Unfortunately you can’t balance a game around the casual player base, because you will completely unbalance the game at a competitive/professional level. If a card appears overpowered, but is countered by more skilful play, nerfing it is not the correct decision.
Tickatus is an awkward card for some decks to deal with, but if you do the maths, it isn’t remotely favoured to cause an auto-win against most of the current combo decks. This is due to the fact that most of these decks are free to run multiple copies of the majority of their combo pieces, while hitting the key legendary (which you would absolutely keep in your mulligan against Warlock if you had it) is 1 in 3 at best assuming you can play Tickatus twice before 20 cards are drawn, which is not guaranteed.
If you’re laddering with a control deck that’s designed to win the game by grinding your opponent out, and Tickatus Warlocks are popular at your elo, PUT ELYSIANA IN THE DECK. Once again the Warlock is no better than 1 in 3 to mill her and she completely negates 2x Tickatus, so if your deck has an inherent weakness to having its cards milled, maybe fucking tech against it.
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If I was Tickatus, I’d start with this post.
To go into a little more detail on this, let’s compare Tickatus to a card that (quite rightly) got nerfed recently, Boggspine Knuckles. Since I’ve hailed “just use Elysiana” as a control counter to Tickatus, while I was vehemently against the argument “just use Stickyfinger” as a counter to Boggspine, it would be hypocritical if I didn’t explain my reasoning.
Boggspine warped the entire game around it and almost everything was forced to tech heavily against it with 1 (or more often 2) Stickyfingers to combat it, including at the top level of ladder play. This is the mark of an overpowered card. When you look at Tickatus in the same light, it isn’t remotely close to achieving this. Any deck with an “attack my opponent” win condition can crush Warlock before Tickatus is even relevant or apply enough pressure to make playing him impossible. What we are looking at is a narrow deck archetype that has an INHERENT WEAKNESS to having their cards milled. Given that control decks are inherently weak to mill, it is a perfectly reasonable solution to run anti-mill tech in these decks to (significantly) improve a miserable matchup. This it not the same as 80% of field being forced to run heavy weapon tech because a weapon is so oppressive that barely anything can breach a 45% win rate against it without doing so.
Improvements to combo decks to make them more Tickatus proof are already being explored. Combo decks do not have to be 1 dimensional OTKs reliant on single legendary cards. Take a look at the current ETC Warrior lists for example. Players have forgone the pure version of deck in favour of an Enrage/ETC hybrid. This deck has a number of damage dealing combos, including Kor’kron Elite combos ranging from 12 to 28 damage, and techs in an ETC combo capable of dealing up to 42 damage under the right conditions. This shift is happening because the standard ETC control warrior had all its eggs in one basket, and disrupting ETC or playing round it by leaving your board sufficiently empty to deny enough rush minion attacks was extremely easy for slow decks to accomplish, and completely denied their only win condition. The result of the shift is a multi dimensional deck that can apply pressure in the early game and has tons of reach with a variety of late game combo plays, making it both significantly more difficult to get into a comfortable position to even drop Tickatus against in the first place, and significantly more difficult to disrupt simply by fucking a few random cards into the bin.
Better deck building and better play will show Tickatus up as the very reasonable card it is as the format develops.
Control players are refusing to main deck Elysiana, so no, this is not unfair in the slightest. A direct card for card counter exists and players are not using it. I laddered to legend this month exclusively with a control Shaman list that had no win condition except for fatigue. If Tickatus missed my Elysiana (he’s effectively only 1 in 6 to hit her each time he’s played and I would keep her in the mulligan and play double far sight to get to her ASAP), they had absolutely no chance to win because I could clear every single board and had up to 4 heals for 20 per game. As my deck was -10 +10, they fatigued sooner due to offset from life tap. I was more than happy with a 70% win rate in this matchup.
Warlock cannot have a late game control deck unless it has this kind of option, because life tap is counterintuitive to the deck’s win condition so without cards like Azari and Tickatus, warlock is limited to one old, shitty and boring aggro concept that they’ve had since the dawn of hearthstone (since apparently devs won’t allow handlock or any other decent midrange warlock deck to happen again for some weird reason).
As far as beating combo decks goes, I have actually always loved combo breakers in hearthstone because there is such limited disruption available. I like that Tickatus has a pretty much even shot at disrupting a combo. When you actually run the numbers, he is a lot fairer than Mindrender Illucia, who gives you significantly more control over your opponent’s win condition, and a significantly higher chance to hit it (especially as most current combos have a required set up or conditions that must be met before they work, you often know exactly when to play her, while Tickatus is mostly just random, late game vs C’thun being a rare exception).
What I would like to see, rather than a nerf to Tickatus, is a skill-based counterplay card released when Elysiana rotates (something akin to Dirty Rat from MSoG) as I do think he will become a toxic presence once his hard negator is removed.
Unfortunately you can’t balance a game around the casual player base, because you will completely unbalance the game at a competitive/professional level. If a card appears overpowered, but is countered by more skilful play, nerfing it is not the correct decision.
Tickatus is an awkward card for some decks to deal with, but if you do the maths, it isn’t remotely favoured to cause an auto-win against most of the current combo decks. This is due to the fact that most of these decks are free to run multiple copies of the majority of their combo pieces, while hitting the key legendary (which you would absolutely keep in your mulligan against Warlock if you had it) is 1 in 3 at best assuming you can play Tickatus twice before 20 cards are drawn, which is not guaranteed.
If you’re laddering with a control deck that’s designed to win the game by grinding your opponent out, and Tickatus Warlocks are popular at your elo, PUT ELYSIANA IN THE DECK. Once again the Warlock is no better than 1 in 3 to mill her and she completely negates 2x Tickatus, so if your deck has an inherent weakness to having its cards milled, maybe fucking tech against it.