I'd personally rather see Leeroy Jenkins in every single deck than allow Control Priests and Fatigue Warriors (not to mention Freeze Mages - talk about non-interactive) to dominate the meta.
I still dont know why they havent made a charge minion with elusive... It would take away some of the spell combo issues and would be interesting to see how it would function as a card.
Lol. Yeah dude. Changing the game mechanics won't make you better. Just realize that you can't play around leeroy combos/charge combos, because you are not good enough at the game. This does not mean that the game should change, you should change and become better. If you used your time and effort and actually becoming good rather than crying about charge mechanic you could have been legend. Anyways, for those who want to know, charge mechanics are fine as they are, quest rogue is not broken ( actually tier 2 deck) and everything is fine. Hearthstone is balanced, you have to get better.... Not the game!
Greedy decks need a counter. Take away charge and what do aggro and Midrange players have?
Two people here who have completely missed the point. I know the game is balanced, never said that it isn't. I'm saying that uninteractive cards should be changed, as blizzard have stated they want to make the game more interactive. Greedy decks need a counter that is interactive. We have been through this, aggro decks don't need charge, and if they do, they should not exist in the game because they are uninteractive.
Lol. Yeah dude. Changing the game mechanics won't make you better. Just realize that you can't play around leeroy combos/charge combos, because you are not good enough at the game. This does not mean that the game should change, you should change and become better. If you used your time and effort and actually becoming good rather than crying about charge mechanic you could have been legend. Anyways, for those who want to know, charge mechanics are fine as they are, quest rogue is not broken ( actually tier 2 deck) and everything is fine. Hearthstone is balanced, you have to get better.... Not the game!
Greedy decks need a counter. Take away charge and what do aggro and Midrange players have?
Two people here who have completely missed the point. I know the game is balanced, never said that it isn't. I'm saying that uninteractive cards should be changed, as blizzard have stated they want to make the game more interactive. Greedy decks need a counter that is interactive. We have been through this, aggro decks don't need charge, and if they do, they should not exist in the game because they are uninteractive.
What exactly IS that counter you speak of? Without charge, aggro/fast Midrange decks have no counter to stupid shit like Frost Nova and Doomsayer. Charge is WAY more interactive than freeze. If I can't attack before my opponent clears my board yet again, what's the point in even playing?
1) Do people only ever use spells to kill minions?
Because that's the whole point I wanted to make (and i continued in 5). Spells like Fireball are great - they can be used for the face or to clear a minion. They are flexible. Now why would you use Leeroy in your deck, just to trade with an enemy minion? What kind of synergy does it add? In arena maybe, but not in constructed. You make a trade, maybe a tempo swing, but leeroy remains exposed and can be easily killed. So much value with that. Instead of running a minion, that can't bypass a taunt, you can use a removal spell instead, which is way more consistent.
2) No. I have to disagree with you. I want to give PW for an example. Oh boy, how i loved to face that deck back in gadgetzan or better said, how it loved to face my face :D. But now seriously: let's look at the pirates with charge - Patches the Pirate and Southsea Deckhand. Now as it may be hard for you to believe, but these cards didn't make PW the abomination it was. Those are some little annoying cockroaches, that could easily be killed with a small AoE. The charge mechanic isn't problematic in every deck. Regarding PW it was the pirate synergy and the weapon one. Because I can happily remember how on turn 2 my opponent played war axe, on turn 3, because there was another pirate on the board, they played Bloodsail Cultist buffing their war axe into 4/2 (because they have attacked with it) and playing a 3/3 taunt pirate for free. So let's comprehend: on turn 3 the pirate played a 3/4 minion, making the weapon 4/2 and playing another 3/3 taunt minion for free. After that they could snowball even greater. So the charge mechanic isn't the problem here. It helps a deck to be faster, but it can be countered. Add taunts. If you don't have any, then the chargers will act like little burst spells, that leave a minion behind.
3) since the point, i wanted to make, wasn't relevant, i'm not going to waste my breath here
4) while i agree that dirty rat is rng bases, your logic is false firstly you have options for the combo decks, even though they aren't that many - combo dudu back in gadgetzan - it needed so many key cards, that if you rat-ed them, even pulling one minion, you could end their win condition secondly
If there is a way to interact with OTK combo decks then sure they can exist, but there isn't, and so Blizzard should not allow them to exist until they come up with one.
i don't even know how to comment on this logic
5) about rag
The vast majority of the time he is used to set up a 2 for 1 or better trade 5 (Rag Continued). "Control decks won't need him - an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion is way too expensive to be run in a deck. + The opponent can just ignore rag, he will hit a random minion anyway, they won't feel being threaten at all." This is literally the opposite of the truth. In control decks Rag has always been an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion, and has been a staple in pretty much every control deck ever. This is because he puts so much pressure on the board, killing your opponents minions for free and letting you pressure with other minions. Having Rag hit your minions in a control match up is what you don't want. In control vs control when the opponent plays Rag you pray for it to go face because it hitting your face is usually worthless because you have so much HP/Armour and healing.
Yes, that's true. Ragnaros does benefit you with a 2 for one trade, sometimes even better. As an 8 mana 8/8 minion, that threatens the enemy board, if left unanswered, is a serious, strong minion, that no other minion with the same mana cost doesn't stand a chance against him. But you are missing the point here and that is - ragnaros is strong, because he's flexible. You can use him in many situations - with a small or with no board presence - and in many decks. Take the ability to hit the enemy face and you make him conditional. You think, that this buffs him, that the purpose of him going for the biggest minion gets strengthened. Uhmm ... Jein. While it does increase the chances of him hitting the strongest enemy minion and making a tempo swing, this is actually a serious nerf for rag. And here's why: I am going to repeat my argument again regarding the enemy board presence. Let's look at some MUs against the arch-types for a bit. As I said aggro decks love to flood the board. By the time you can actually play rag, you have to deal with many minions at once, rag doesn't do that. Against combo - a minio.. a what now? Because the players keep their key cards in the hand, rag can't do anything about them. Now it comes to mid-range and control decks. While the first arch-type concentrates in the early, midgame, they do play big minions later on. But it's up to RNG to help you or not. Against control - it's clear. When I said:
Control decks won't need him - an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion is way too expensive to be run in a deck.
I meant that a non flexible version of rag, that won't help you in most of the cases would be bad. I will give you an example of Eater of Secrets and Flare. While the first one does get buffed, when it's used against a secret deck, it's does super bad against other MUs. The hunter spell though is very flexible - if it doesn't meet the requirements, then at least he gives you a card. Back to rag, just try to imagine how would he be, if he only hit minions. An 8 mana minion, that just stays as a statue and clumsily tries to hit a minion after minion... no, just no.
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About the topic. If you want everything to be interactive, then pick another game. Yu-Gi-Oh has a ton of spell and trap cards, that can trigger during your opponent's turn. Hs was made to be simple - for good or bad. Look, i also want to have more fair games in some cases, to be able to play on the same ground as others. But that's just an utopia, like another one said. You want to remove some "flaws" to improve the game, but at the end it will get worse. I don't have a big vocabulary, nor I can brag with the game experience like other players (I haven't played yu-gi-oh that much and hs only for a year). But even a player like me understands, that removing some core mechanics, won't lead the game to a better path. If you have time and wish, then watch this https://vimeo.com/99601528. I don't want to offend you by showing you a cartoon musical for kids, but i find the video cute and the moral of the story interesting.
Lol. Yeah dude. Changing the game mechanics won't make you better. Just realize that you can't play around leeroy combos/charge combos, because you are not good enough at the game. This does not mean that the game should change, you should change and become better. If you used your time and effort and actually becoming good rather than crying about charge mechanic you could have been legend. Anyways, for those who want to know, charge mechanics are fine as they are, quest rogue is not broken ( actually tier 2 deck) and everything is fine. Hearthstone is balanced, you have to get better.... Not the game!
Greedy decks need a counter. Take away charge and what do aggro and Midrange players have?
Two people here who have completely missed the point. I know the game is balanced, never said that it isn't. I'm saying that uninteractive cards should be changed, as blizzard have stated they want to make the game more interactive. Greedy decks need a counter that is interactive. We have been through this, aggro decks don't need charge, and if they do, they should not exist in the game because they are uninteractive.
What exactly IS that counter you speak of? Without charge, aggro/fast Midrange decks have no counter to stupid shit like Frost Nova and Doomsayer. Charge is WAY more interactive than freeze. If I can't attack before my opponent clears my board yet again, what's the point in even playing?
The usual board flooding, over-stated and low cost minions that buff each other etc etc. Also you clearly haven't paid attention to the thread, the proposed change is that charge minions can still attack on the turn they are played, they just can't go face, thus your doomsayer counter remains intact.
Secondly, charge is not more interactive than freeze. When freeze is used as part of an OTK combo deck, they are equally uninteractive (again pay attention to the other proposed change, that spells should not be able to hit face). When freeze is used to stall and set up a board clear or similar such use, then it is a part of interacting with the board. Charging face is never interacting with the board and so charge is clearly much less interactive than freeze in these cases.
1) Do people only ever use spells to kill minions?
Because that's the whole point I wanted to make (and i continued in 5). Spells like Fireball are great - they can be used for the face or to clear a minion. They are flexible. Now why would you use Leeroy in your deck, just to trade with an enemy minion? What kind of synergy does it add? In arena maybe, but not in constructed. You make a trade, maybe a tempo swing, but leeroy remains exposed and can be easily killed. So much value with that. Instead of running a minion, that can't bypass a taunt, you can use a removal spell instead, which is way more consistent.
2) No. I have to disagree with you. I want to give PW for an example. Oh boy, how i loved to face that deck back in gadgetzan or better said, how it loved to face my face :D. But now seriously: let's look at the pirates with charge - Patches the Pirate and Southsea Deckhand. Now as it may be hard for you to believe, but these cards didn't make PW the abomination it was. Those are some little annoying cockroaches, that could easily be killed with a small AoE. The charge mechanic isn't problematic in every deck. Regarding PW it was the pirate synergy and the weapon one. Because I can happily remember how on turn 2 my opponent played war axe, on turn 3, because there was another pirate on the board, they played Bloodsail Cultist buffing their war axe into 4/2 (because they have attacked with it) and playing a 3/3 taunt pirate for free. So let's comprehend: on turn 3 the pirate played a 3/4 minion, making the weapon 4/2 and playing another 3/3 taunt minion for free. After that they could snowball even greater. So the charge mechanic isn't the problem here. It helps a deck to be faster, but it can be countered. Add taunts. If you don't have any, then the chargers will act like little burst spells, that leave a minion behind.
3) since the point, i wanted to make, wasn't relevant, i'm not going to waste my breath here
4) while i agree that dirty rat is rng bases, your logic is false firstly you have options for the combo decks, even though they aren't that many - combo dudu back in gadgetzan - it needed so many key cards, that if you rat-ed them, even pulling one minion, you could end their win condition secondly
If there is a way to interact with OTK combo decks then sure they can exist, but there isn't, and so Blizzard should not allow them to exist until they come up with one.
i don't even know how to comment on this logic
5) about rag
The vast majority of the time he is used to set up a 2 for 1 or better trade 5 (Rag Continued). "Control decks won't need him - an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion is way too expensive to be run in a deck. + The opponent can just ignore rag, he will hit a random minion anyway, they won't feel being threaten at all." This is literally the opposite of the truth. In control decks Rag has always been an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion, and has been a staple in pretty much every control deck ever. This is because he puts so much pressure on the board, killing your opponents minions for free and letting you pressure with other minions. Having Rag hit your minions in a control match up is what you don't want. In control vs control when the opponent plays Rag you pray for it to go face because it hitting your face is usually worthless because you have so much HP/Armour and healing.
Yes, that's true. Ragnaros does benefit you with a 2 for one trade, sometimes even better. As an 8 mana 8/8 minion, that threatens the enemy board, if left unanswered, is a serious, strong minion, that no other minion with the same mana cost doesn't stand a chance against him. But you are missing the point here and that is - ragnaros is strong, because he's flexible. You can use him in many situations - with a small or with no board presence - and in many decks. Take the ability to hit the enemy face and you make him conditional. You think, that this buffs him, that the purpose of him going for the biggest minion gets strengthened. Uhmm ... Jein. While it does increase the chances of him hitting the strongest enemy minion and making a tempo swing, this is actually a serious nerf for rag. And here's why: I am going to repeat my argument again regarding the enemy board presence. Let's look at some MUs against the arch-types for a bit. As I said aggro decks love to flood the board. By the time you can actually play rag, you have to deal with many minions at once, rag doesn't do that. Against combo - a minio.. a what now? Because the players keep their key cards in the hand, rag can't do anything about them. Now it comes to mid-range and control decks. While the first arch-type concentrates in the early, midgame, they do play big minions later on. But it's up to RNG to help you or not. Against control - it's clear. When I said:
Control decks won't need him - an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion is way too expensive to be run in a deck.
I meant that a non flexible version of rag, that won't help you in most of the cases would be bad. I will give you an example of Eater of Secrets and Flare. While the first one does get buffed, when it's used against a secret deck, it's does super bad against other MUs. The hunter spell though is very flexible - if it doesn't meet the requirements, then at least he gives you a card. Back to rag, just try to imagine how would he be, if he only hit minions. An 8 mana minion, that just stays as a statue and clumsily tries to hit a minion after minion... no, just no.
--------------------------------
About the topic. If you want everything to be interactive, then pick another game. Yu-Gi-Oh has a ton of spell and trap cards, that can trigger during your opponent's turn. Hs was made to be simple - for good or bad. Look, i also want to have more fair games in some cases, to be able to play on the same ground as others. But that's just an utopia, like another one said. You want to remove some "flaws" to improve the game, but at the end it will get worse. I don't have a big vocabulary, nor I can brag with the game experience like other players (I haven't played yu-gi-oh that much and hs only for a year). But even a player like me understands, that removing some core mechanics, won't lead the game to a better path. If you have time and wish, then watch this https://vimeo.com/99601528. I don't want to offend you by showing you a cartoon musical for kids, but i find the video cute and the moral of the story interesting.
1. "Spells like Fireball are great - they can be used for the face or to clear a minion. They are flexible." - Again, using them to hit face is uninteractive and should not be allowed in the game.
2. "Now why would you use Leeroy in your deck, just to trade with an enemy minion? What kind of synergy does it add? In arena maybe, but not in constructed. You make a trade, maybe a tempo swing, but leeroy remains exposed and can be easily killed. So much value with that. Instead of running a minion, that can't bypass a taunt, you can use a removal spell instead, which is way more consistent." On this logic nobody should ever use minions in any deck ever. You can just use removal spells instead right? Lol, of course not, the constant pressure minions exert is more valuable than one off spell uses. With improved stats, leeroy could charge a minion, kill it, and then force your opponent to set use another resource to remove him. Thus creating a 2 for 1 trade which is of great value and tempo.
3. Nothing to do with a particular deck is of relevance. The simple point is that charging face is uninteractive and shouldn't be allowed. Even if charge minions were never played at all, were considered the worst of the worst, I would still advocate this change. The taunt mechanic does not balance the charge mechanic out. You play a taunt, they can remove it with a spell or a buffed token and then charge face. Playing taunts is interacting on the board. Charging face is not, simple.
4. I don't understand why you cannot follow the logic. If something is bad for the game, why should it be in the game? Answer: It shouldn't. Seems basic to me.
5. A version of Rag that won't help you in most cases would be one that could only hit face. A version of Rag that can more likely set up 2 for 1 trades because it cannot hit face on the first turn or at all is a lot more likely to help you. Not sure you think Rag being able to hit face against aggro decks is good. If they have a full board, they won't be low on health for Rag to kill them (and he shouldn't be able to do that anyway, its uninteractive, the whole point of this thread). Rag sucks against aggro now, and will still suck against aggro with the change. But he will be better in control in his interactive use and worse as a finisher, his uninteractive use, mission accomplished.
6. "Back to rag, just try to imagine how would he be, if he only hit minions. An 8 mana minion, that just stays as a statue and clumsily tries to hit a minion after minion... no, just no." - So an 8 mana minion that will virtually always kill an opponents minion on the turn you play it and will keep doing so over and over again unless they remove it is bad? Hmmmmmmmmmmm
Removing a leader doesn't create an anarchist utopia. It simply creates a new leader.
Removing charge would effectively kill most of the aggro and combo decks as they would face the 'priest' styled problem of not being able to close out the game or apply enough pressure to threaten lethal well.
So would that bring balance? Nope. Instead the new king would be decks that normally are held back by aggro: slow rolling but unstoppable late game decks. Think Exodia mage and Jade Druid. What's more, they'd be able to get even more powerful since they wouldn't have to put in anti-aggro cards and, instead, put in cards to help support their later game and crush midrange decks.
Card games have a natural rock/paper/scissors feel to them. Aggro is meant to be a check against hyper greedy control decks. Remove rock and every game turns into a scissors match.
Charge is a VERY dangerous mechanic and was far overused back in the day. But completely eliminating it is just as dangerous.
name a card asides from patches or bluegill warrior that has charge in token druid, can't?, because there isn't there's your example that aggro decks can survive and thrive even if charge got nerfed to "can attack minions but not heroes the turn this is summoned", let's be honest here the mechanic has gotten so many cards butchered in the past (Force of Nature, Leeroy JenkinsMolten Giant, Arcane Golem, OG Unleash the Hounds, Warsong Commander amongs many other and now with 1 mana 5/5 charge minions infecting The Caverns Below . it's pretty clear that the charge mechanic has always been this infectious tumour that spreads to interesting cards and will keep those cards getting nerfed repeating a vicious cycle until the malignous tumour gets extirpated once and for all.
1) what's the problem with spells hitting face anyway, you dare to say, that that's really non interactive and even though there's nothing interactive there, how would you imagine the mage class with it that would be a core change to that class *if you wanted to make it so, that spells don't hit the face, then you will simpy make a whole class handicap, plus damaging other classes in some extent too have some respect for spells also hitting the face, don't blame freeze mage/quest mage/ burn make for everything *it's a class, that works around spells, of course the majority of the spells should be able to be used as a win condition *the non interactive part is the hiding behind an ice block, while slowly hitting the face from a safe distance *take the ice block away (into wild) and you will have a class, that can no longer cheat hiding in a turtle shell
2) leeroy look, i'm not going to repeat everything if you want a 100% environment, then add a friend and play a control vs control match Charged Devilsaur is the one you suggest for leeroy to turn into but this one at least has the beast tag on it - so some classes can synergize with it more
On this logic nobody should ever use minions in any deck ever. You can just use removal spells instead right? Lol, of course not, the constant pressure minions exert is more valuable than one off spell uses. With improved stats, leeroy could charge a minion, kill it, and then force your opponent to set use another resource to remove him. Thus creating a 2 for 1 trade which is of great value and tempo.
look, i wanted to say, that just a legendary to be designed to make a trade, is not that worth it people will add other cards to improve their chances on ladder, powerful cards, not just stated minions with a semi-charge mechanic in this case Swamp King Dred would be a way, way better replacement for leeroy (although it can't attack the current minions on the board + it get's hard countered by poisonous minions)
*because what you suggested for leeroy will change his nature: - your suggestion is good, but only if the minion wasn't a legendary one legendaries should have special abilities in compare to other normal minions what you suggest, you will make leeroy a cheap, great stated one, making a good trade or two, but nothing else - leeroy is, again, a person, that immaturely charges forward, which normally results in killing himself or his allies that's why his current text is a reference to what he is take the whelps away, make him more durable and suddenly only the art remains of what he is nothing else to do with the lore behind that character
*3) about the charge mechanic overall and about
A card only used to hit face is bad card design.
I will calmly start. If we look at the vanilla stats on the chargers, we can see that they can do damage to the face, almost every time equal to their mana cost. And that's not something bad, neither is the case with applying pressure to the opponent. Because that's just a proactive approach, that demands an answer. That's the nature of the things and looking it that way it shouldn't change. It's not even that oppressive, if the player buffs the charger a little bit. That's a calm environment for me, this doesn't get out of bounds. The problem, however, and I'm not overseeing it, is that the charge mechanic is being horrificly abused. In the Miracle rogue (with conceal), Handlock with Faceless, in QR; anyfin pally - just name them. Or even if it's not an OTK deck and like aggro shaman you could use Deckhand, together with patches and flametongue totem to deal 7 damage really early on. I mean if the shaman player already had minions on the board, they can get the buff from the totem + the additional damage from the chargers. All that, I completely agree, should not be welcomed, it's way too fast. Things like this hit you from nowhere. There will be more cases in the future, if the charge mechanic doesn't get changed. I completely agree. That's why the traditional chargers should be changed in a way - so that they can still help the aggro decks, but which won't get out of hand. Like making them to be only able to charge minions the turn they are summoned or i don't know, maybe like the piggies from gadgetzan. I'm going to mention yet again leeroy. You may not accept it, but he is indeed part of the wow history, the suggested nerf for him will completely change him and removing him is not a great option too. I myself cannot suggest a better solution, maybe just put him in the hall of fame - for atleast standard will be more fresh for the players.
4) combo decks can be countered although not in a way, that control decks would want - only making faster decks favoured in those MUs they aren't as bad as how you describe them and eliminating them is just silly
5) and 6) offf, don't distort my words i can't understand why you can't get it making this change will make rag really conditional, and he is strong not because he can attack the enemy zoo player, but because he is flexible in many situations *with your suggestion you will make him exclusively for control decks ONLY if you find him non interactive, blame blizz for the rng and all the cards with the rng mechanic + a fireball to the face is not that bad, you paid 8 mana for christ sake; if you want that only minions will hit the face, then play arena + do you really think, that i wanted him to hurl fireballs at every single minion on the board at the same time... i was saying how clumsy he would be just to have that one particular effect and how he may miss the important minions on the board just like the new Yogg - if rag hits the wrong minion, it will be like yogg killing, silencing... himself you wasted 8 mana for nothing if you play this version of rag on an empty board, he will be an Eerie Statue, that just waits for a minion to be played, but it won't do anything beside that condition
and also - the whole point of my previous two posts was, that if you make the cards more "interactable", then you will just nerf them for worse
i also mentioned that if we made a meta, where control decks prevailed, then there would be decks like jade or greedy priest decks, where they outvalue your deck and guess what, you would need pace to beat them
Greedy decks need a counter. Take away charge and what do aggro and Midrange players have?
token druid doesn't use charge except for bluegillw arrior and aptches, there's your proof that charg eis an uneeded and broken nechanic and that aggro decks can be fine and thrive without it.
Greedy decks need a counter. Take away charge and what do aggro and Midrange players have?
token druid doesn't use charge except for bluegillw arrior and aptches, there's your proof that charg eis an uneeded and broken nechanic and that aggro decks can be fine and thrive without it.
Yeah. Two bluegill warrior than can deal up to 6 damage each if finja pulls a warleader. Good luck winning games without this combo
I think charge should just be phased out. like no new charge minions except the ones that battle cry with charge and can't attack face. And then slowly rotate the stonetusk boars/wolfriders/korkon elites etc from standard. maybe leave leeroy, or may just hall of fame him too...
They're never going to print a card like Leeroy again ever. The hogriders from Gadgetzan will be there closest thing to charge minions you are going to get now.
Greedy decks need a counter. Take away charge and what do aggro and Midrange players have?
token druid doesn't use charge except for bluegillw arrior and aptches, there's your proof that charg eis an uneeded and broken nechanic and that aggro decks can be fine and thrive without it.
Yeah. Two bluegill warrior than can deal up to 6 damage each if finja pulls a warleader. Good luck winning games without this combo
learn to play, stabilish a board lotus your stuff, use your charge minion that cna't longer attck face to get ahead in the game's tempo, is not like removing the ability to attack face the turn a minion is played won't allow bluegills pulled from finja to give you tempo
This will be my last post cus I don't think we are ever going to agree with each other.
What I don't think you understand is that this change isn't to do with the strength of cards, its do with game design. Nothing should be able to do face damage without your opponent being able to respond to it, its uninteractive. The only exceptions to this are hero powers since your opponent can plan around those and so can preemptively respond.
On this principle, how much you are in love with Leeroy's personality doesn't matter and the strength of affected cards can be adjusted in other ways so they don't become unplayable, though Ragnaros would still be an insanely strong minion since his only viable and interactive role would be getting a buff.
Something like Battlecry: Give this minion Charge, or something along those lines, or even better: Battlecry: Give this Minion CHarge for 1 turn
I'd personally rather see Leeroy Jenkins in every single deck than allow Control Priests and Fatigue Warriors (not to mention Freeze Mages - talk about non-interactive) to dominate the meta.
Forgive me, friend. I have failed.
I still dont know why they havent made a charge minion with elusive... It would take away some of the spell combo issues and would be interesting to see how it would function as a card.
Greedy decks need a counter. Take away charge and what do aggro and Midrange players have?
Forgive me, friend. I have failed.
Forgive me, friend. I have failed.
So the charge mechanic isn't the problem here. It helps a deck to be faster, but it can be countered. Add taunts. If you don't have any, then the chargers will act like little burst spells, that leave a minion behind.
firstly you have options for the combo decks, even though they aren't that many - combo dudu back in gadgetzan - it needed so many key cards, that if you rat-ed them, even pulling one minion, you could end their win condition
secondly
Yes, that's true. Ragnaros does benefit you with a 2 for one trade, sometimes even better. As an 8 mana 8/8 minion, that threatens the enemy board, if left unanswered, is a serious, strong minion, that no other minion with the same mana cost doesn't stand a chance against him.
But you are missing the point here and that is - ragnaros is strong, because he's flexible. You can use him in many situations - with a small or with no board presence - and in many decks. Take the ability to hit the enemy face and you make him conditional. You think, that this buffs him, that the purpose of him going for the biggest minion gets strengthened. Uhmm ... Jein. While it does increase the chances of him hitting the strongest enemy minion and making a tempo swing, this is actually a serious nerf for rag. And here's why:
I am going to repeat my argument again regarding the enemy board presence. Let's look at some MUs against the arch-types for a bit. As I said aggro decks love to flood the board. By the time you can actually play rag, you have to deal with many minions at once, rag doesn't do that. Against combo - a minio.. a what now? Because the players keep their key cards in the hand, rag can't do anything about them. Now it comes to mid-range and control decks. While the first arch-type concentrates in the early, midgame, they do play big minions later on. But it's up to RNG to help you or not. Against control - it's clear. When I said:
I meant that a non flexible version of rag, that won't help you in most of the cases would be bad.
I will give you an example of Eater of Secrets and Flare. While the first one does get buffed, when it's used against a secret deck, it's does super bad against other MUs. The hunter spell though is very flexible - if it doesn't meet the requirements, then at least he gives you a card.
Back to rag, just try to imagine how would he be, if he only hit minions. An 8 mana minion, that just stays as a statue and clumsily tries to hit a minion after minion... no, just no.
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About the topic. If you want everything to be interactive, then pick another game. Yu-Gi-Oh has a ton of spell and trap cards, that can trigger during your opponent's turn. Hs was made to be simple - for good or bad.
Look, i also want to have more fair games in some cases, to be able to play on the same ground as others. But that's just an utopia, like another one said. You want to remove some "flaws" to improve the game, but at the end it will get worse. I don't have a big vocabulary, nor I can brag with the game experience like other players (I haven't played yu-gi-oh that much and hs only for a year). But even a player like me understands, that removing some core mechanics, won't lead the game to a better path.
If you have time and wish, then watch this https://vimeo.com/99601528. I don't want to offend you by showing you a cartoon musical for kids, but i find the video cute and the moral of the story interesting.
Inb4 have fun reading :P
and even though there's nothing interactive there, how would you imagine the mage class with it
that would be a core change to that class
*if you wanted to make it so, that spells don't hit the face, then you will simpy make a whole class handicap, plus damaging other classes in some extent too
have some respect for spells also hitting the face, don't blame freeze mage/quest mage/ burn make for everything
*it's a class, that works around spells, of course the majority of the spells should be able to be used as a win condition
*the non interactive part is the hiding behind an ice block, while slowly hitting the face from a safe distance
*take the ice block away (into wild) and you will have a class, that can no longer cheat hiding in a turtle shell
2) leeroy
look, i'm not going to repeat everything
if you want a 100% environment, then add a friend and play a control vs control match
Charged Devilsaur is the one you suggest for leeroy to turn into
but this one at least has the beast tag on it - so some classes can synergize with it more
look, i wanted to say, that just a legendary to be designed to make a trade, is not that worth it
people will add other cards to improve their chances on ladder, powerful cards, not just stated minions with a semi-charge mechanic
in this case Swamp King Dred would be a way, way better replacement for leeroy (although it can't attack the current minions on the board + it get's hard countered by poisonous minions)
*because what you suggested for leeroy will change his nature:
- your suggestion is good, but only if the minion wasn't a legendary one
legendaries should have special abilities in compare to other normal minions
what you suggest, you will make leeroy a cheap, great stated one, making a good trade or two, but nothing else
- leeroy is, again, a person, that immaturely charges forward, which normally results in killing himself or his allies
that's why his current text is a reference to what he is
take the whelps away, make him more durable and suddenly only the art remains of what he is
nothing else to do with the lore behind that character
The problem, however, and I'm not overseeing it, is that the charge mechanic is being horrificly abused. In the Miracle rogue (with conceal), Handlock with Faceless, in QR; anyfin pally - just name them. Or even if it's not an OTK deck and like aggro shaman you could use Deckhand, together with patches and flametongue totem to deal 7 damage really early on. I mean if the shaman player already had minions on the board, they can get the buff from the totem + the additional damage from the chargers. All that, I completely agree, should not be welcomed, it's way too fast. Things like this hit you from nowhere. There will be more cases in the future, if the charge mechanic doesn't get changed. I completely agree. That's why the traditional chargers should be changed in a way - so that they can still help the aggro decks, but which won't get out of hand. Like making them to be only able to charge minions the turn they are summoned or i don't know, maybe like the piggies from gadgetzan.
I'm going to mention yet again leeroy. You may not accept it, but he is indeed part of the wow history, the suggested nerf for him will completely change him and removing him is not a great option too. I myself cannot suggest a better solution, maybe just put him in the hall of fame - for atleast standard will be more fresh for the players.
although not in a way, that control decks would want - only making faster decks favoured in those MUs
they aren't as bad as how you describe them and eliminating them is just silly
i can't understand why you can't get it
making this change will make rag really conditional, and he is strong not because he can attack the enemy zoo player, but because he is flexible in many situations
*with your suggestion you will make him exclusively for control decks ONLY
if you find him non interactive, blame blizz for the rng and all the cards with the rng mechanic
+ a fireball to the face is not that bad, you paid 8 mana for christ sake; if you want that only minions will hit the face, then play arena
+ do you really think, that i wanted him to hurl fireballs at every single minion on the board at the same time... i was saying how clumsy he would be just to have that one particular effect and how he may miss the important minions on the board
just like the new Yogg - if rag hits the wrong minion, it will be like yogg killing, silencing... himself
you wasted 8 mana for nothing
if you play this version of rag on an empty board, he will be an Eerie Statue, that just waits for a minion to be played, but it won't do anything beside that condition
and also - the whole point of my previous two posts was, that if you make the cards more "interactable", then you will just nerf them for worse
I think charge should just be phased out. like no new charge minions except the ones that battle cry with charge and can't attack face. And then slowly rotate the stonetusk boars/wolfriders/korkon elites etc from standard. maybe leave leeroy, or may just hall of fame him too...
Charge is fine. OTK decks are fine. Why limit the archetypes?
They're never going to print a card like Leeroy again ever. The hogriders from Gadgetzan will be there closest thing to charge minions you are going to get now.
This will be my last post cus I don't think we are ever going to agree with each other.
What I don't think you understand is that this change isn't to do with the strength of cards, its do with game design. Nothing should be able to do face damage without your opponent being able to respond to it, its uninteractive. The only exceptions to this are hero powers since your opponent can plan around those and so can preemptively respond.
On this principle, how much you are in love with Leeroy's personality doesn't matter and the strength of affected cards can be adjusted in other ways so they don't become unplayable, though Ragnaros would still be an insanely strong minion since his only viable and interactive role would be getting a buff.