Was just thinking earlier That Majority of Tier One decks PirateWarrior Rogue? Not sure if it's considered Tier one haven't faced it in a week or so Etc have access to some Op Face damage and 75% of that is through Charge Minions. If Charge was changed to Attakc a minion when played / just removed from the game would that balance things or stop Over powered shit ?
At least this way I suppose aggro can still be around but the Charge minions can be interacted with. Heck there are aggro decks out there that use next to no charge and do fine.
Anyways curious to read other people's thoughts to gain other perspectives sorry for the wall of text
(note if spelling errors had a bit to drink will edit in the morning)
In my opinion making charge minions only able to attack other minions on the turn they are played, coupled with making flat damage spells unable to target your opponents face, would infinitely improve the game. These two mechanics are so obviously against Blizzard's apparent aim of making the game more interactive that it blows my mind that they haven't made the change. Some progress seems to be being made with the new Charged Devilsaur but I really don't understand why they can't change all such cards in one big patch.
Oh god please no. Think of us arena players that actually want to be able to win by outplaying with an aggro deck instead of crafting pure greed. The arena metagame is already way too greedy.
Removing a leader doesn't create an anarchist utopia. It simply creates a new leader.
Removing charge would effectively kill most of the aggro and combo decks as they would face the 'priest' styled problem of not being able to close out the game or apply enough pressure to threaten lethal well.
So would that bring balance? Nope. Instead the new king would be decks that normally are held back by aggro: slow rolling but unstoppable late game decks. Think Exodia mage and Jade Druid. What's more, they'd be able to get even more powerful since they wouldn't have to put in anti-aggro cards and, instead, put in cards to help support their later game and crush midrange decks.
Card games have a natural rock/paper/scissors feel to them. Aggro is meant to be a check against hyper greedy control decks. Remove rock and every game turns into a scissors match.
Charge is a VERY dangerous mechanic and was far overused back in the day. But completely eliminating it is just as dangerous.
Oh god please no. Think of us arena players that actually want to be able to win by outplaying with an aggro deck instead of crafting pure greed. The arena metagame is already way too greedy.
So clicking on a card in your hand and then on your opponent's face to deal damage with no counter-play or interaction possible falls under your definition of outplaying does it?
Removing a leader doesn't create an anarchist utopia. It simply creates a new leader.
Removing charge would effectively kill most of the aggro and combo decks as they would face the 'priest' styled problem of not being able to close out the game or apply enough pressure to threaten lethal well.
So would that bring balance? Nope. Instead the new king would be decks that normally are held back by aggro: slow rolling but unstoppable late game decks. Think Exodia mage and Jade Druid. What's more, they'd be able to get even more powerful since they wouldn't have to put in anti-aggro cards and, instead, put in cards to help support their later game and crush midrange decks.
Card games have a natural rock/paper/scissors feel to them. Aggro is meant to be a check against hyper greedy control decks. Remove rock and every game turns into a scissors match.
Charge is a VERY dangerous mechanic and was far overused back in the day. But completely eliminating it is just as dangerous.
We aren't talking about removing a leader. This isn't about a deck or class or card or even a mechanic being overpowered. It is about a mechanic being uninteractive, unsatisfying and frustrating. Things which Blizzard have said they want to remove. Removing charge would not kill aggro decks at all, many of which contain none or very few charge minions. Even if it did, then they deserve to die, if an archtype is that reliant s on such an uninteractive mechanic then it should not have a place in the game. Once again this is not about balance in my opinion, its about game design. Again, aggro will be minimally affected. If there is a change, then the new aggro will just be the next fastest deck and thats fine, deck speed isn't an issue, lack on inter-activeness is.
I, coupled with making flat damage spells unable to target your opponents face, would infinitely improve the game.
No, that would ruin the game. it would kill any spell based deck like freezemage and miracle rogue, which are in my opinion awesome decks (miracle being my favorite deck of all time)
I'm sorry but those decks are the pinnacle examples of poor game design. Winning without your opponent being able to do anything about it, such fun, much skill. Also it would not kill spell based decks. Interactive spell-based decks such as the new medivh + lyra priest would be perfectly fine.
I think weapons are more of a problem than charge creatures. I think weapons should only be able to go face if the opponent has no creatures left on the board
I think weapons are more of a problem than charge creatures. I think weapons should only be able to go face if the opponent has no creatures left on the board
Or give weapons the same effect as that new 7/7 beast.. has charge, but can only attack minions for 1-turn.. probably would still be oppressive, but a step in the right direction at least
Although I don't like the aggro decks and oh boy how I enjoy, when a QR takes the win from me just because of the cheap chargers, ... I don't think that's a good idea.
Like iandakar said, decks like Jade and Exodia/freeze mage will prevail, also really greedy decks like the priest one in wild (with reno, kazakus, amara etc) will constantly out value the other decks (mid-range).
Yes, PW last season did an enormous damage to the game experience of veterans and newer players. Normally control decks should have handled it, but it even went that far and ended the games around t4, t5. Aggro hunter, also infamously known as face hunter, back in the days has been a pain in the ass with all of the chargers. And yes, I also don't like when I face an aggro deck, because I just play the defense/surviving game and nothing else, but you shouldn't take it away. Instead blizz should give us tools, more and more tools to handle them. Because a healthy environment consists of many arch-types.
Inb4 just imagine what it would be, if blizz DID remove the charge mechanic. How would Leeroy Jenkins look like, he would just lose his nature. And Ragnaros the Firelord would also be problematic, although there isn't a charge mechanic written in his text, he acts like the ultra charge minion, kinda - when summoned he aims for the face or when he "attacks" a minion, it "gains" a divine shield
Oh god please no. Think of us arena players that actually want to be able to win by outplaying with an aggro deck instead of crafting pure greed. The arena metagame is already way too greedy.
So clicking on a card in your hand and then on your opponent's face to deal damage with no counter-play or interaction possible falls under your definition of outplaying does it?
Removing a leader doesn't create an anarchist utopia. It simply creates a new leader.
Removing charge would effectively kill most of the aggro and combo decks as they would face the 'priest' styled problem of not being able to close out the game or apply enough pressure to threaten lethal well.
So would that bring balance? Nope. Instead the new king would be decks that normally are held back by aggro: slow rolling but unstoppable late game decks. Think Exodia mage and Jade Druid. What's more, they'd be able to get even more powerful since they wouldn't have to put in anti-aggro cards and, instead, put in cards to help support their later game and crush midrange decks.
Card games have a natural rock/paper/scissors feel to them. Aggro is meant to be a check against hyper greedy control decks. Remove rock and every game turns into a scissors match.
Charge is a VERY dangerous mechanic and was far overused back in the day. But completely eliminating it is just as dangerous.
We aren't talking about removing a leader. This isn't about a deck or class or card or even a mechanic being overpowered. It is about a mechanic being uninteractive, unsatisfying and frustrating. Things which Blizzard have said they want to remove. Removing charge would not kill aggro decks at all, many of which contain none or very few charge minions. Even if it did, then they deserve to die, if an archtype is that reliant s on such an uninteractive mechanic then it should not have a place in the game. Once again this is not about balance in my opinion, its about game design. Again, aggro will be minimally affected. If there is a change, then the new aggro will just be the next fastest deck and thats fine, deck speed isn't an issue, lack on inter-activeness is.
And suddenly Priest and Warrior rises and just steals/removes every minion you play. As a result there will again be the debate of being uninteractive, because you can't counterplay and just watch the game to end.
This doesn't mean that i am against this change (actually i would like the change), just that i think this change will not stop the uninteractive behaviour of the game.
Removing minions is, literally, infinitely more interactive than hitting face with charge minions or spells, you are interacting on the board with your opponent. Also there is counter-play in the interaction you describe, your opponent played a minion, committed a resource to the board, you countered by committing a resource/resources to remove it. Thus I fail to see how the game could possibly avoid becoming more interactive, though I am glad you support the change.
I think that charge would not be that problematic if there were less charge minions.
We have very few real Charge minions already after the rotation and the only Charger that currently sees play outside of Warrior and Hunter, who are meant to be Aggro-classes anyway, is Bluegill Warrior because of the Murloc-tag. There is also Zoo and Doomguard, but Warlock is trash tier righ now so I'm going to ignore that one.
If anything Charge gets abused for Combos rather than Aggro, so I would actually like to see more Charge minions, but with additional utility at the cost of Attack like Argent Horserider or even more defensive statlines like Stormwind Knight.
I agree, cards like Argent Horserider are good cards as their purpose is to catch up on the board i.e. to interact with your opponent. Of course, their purpose does not prevent them from being subject to the change, no minion, whatever its statline, should be able to go face on the turn it is played.
Inb4 just imagine what it would be, if blizz DID remove the charge mechanic. How would Leeroy Jenkins look like, he would just lose his nature. And Ragnaros the Firelord would also be problematic, although there isn't a charge mechanic written in his text, he acts like the ultra charge minion, kinda - when summoned he aims for the face or when he "attacks" a minion, it "gains" a divine shield
Leeroy could easily be reworked or just removed from the game. So far as I am aware, he has never been included in a deck with the intention of being used in an interactive way, the game can only benefit from his rework/removal. Ragnaros is an interesting one. I would suggest he is not an ultra charge minion but actually only a semi-charge minion as you cannot pick his target. Further, every minion your opponent has on the board gains taunt in a way since they decrease the odds of Ragnaros going face. Lets be honest though, Ragnaros was never exactly great card design in the first place, hence his recent removal to wild despite being in the classic set. I think he would be fine having his ability changed so that it cannot hit face, or cannot hit face on the turn he is played.
If we look at the numerous times Blizzard(Team 5) has talked about Charge, we can quickly notice that they also think it's a problematic mechanic and wish they had done something else with it.
As we can see of the latest version of Charge, they have a downside (e.g only atk minion, only atk "face" the turn efter this turn). Which is the absolute correct way to use that mechanic.
Charge should have been "Only attack minions" and it would have still been a good mechanic. And not just a problematic mechanic that honestly, limits the design space by the highest amount, as they are so fond of saying.
I guess changing all the minions that still has the classic charge would be a bit to much re-balancing.
Personally I would say, to hell with that. Start working on it. :P
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Leeroy could easily be reworked or just removed from the game. So far as I am aware, he has never been included in a deck with the intention of being used in an interactive way, the game can only benefit from his rework/removal. Ragnaros is an interesting one. I would suggest he is not an ultra charge minion but actually only a semi-charge minion as you cannot pick his target. Further, every minion your opponent has on the board gains taunt in a way since they decrease the odds of Ragnaros going face. Lets be honest though, Ragnaros was never exactly great card design in the first place, hence his recent removal to wild despite being in the classic set. I think he would be fine having his ability changed so that it cannot hit face, or cannot hit face on the turn he is played.
ammm about leeroy you can't just say, that he needs to be reworked or worse - to be completely removed from the game: - if you demanded a rework, he would just lose his nature like i said; when we say Leeroy, we describe a person, that immaturely chargesforward, you can't take this away from him + he has a "downside" in his text, summoning 2 whelps, that can kill him next turn - he is an iconic character from WOW and it's completely unimaginable, when there's a wow related game without him - in order for a card to be nerfed, it needs to be OP, like a bunch; back in the old days (as far as i'm aware) that card cost 4 mana and it was insane with the bounce effect, that's why it was changed to a 5 mana Fireball, which can be countered by taunts - about the non interactive part - yes, i hated it when locks killed me with the 20+ burst damage combo (2/3 of the hero's health) or how the rogues can still do 18 damage (leeroy, cold blood, cold blood, eviscerate) or 22 damage (leeroy, cold blood, cold blood, eviscerate + coin/prep + eviscerate) from hand, but that requires time and lucky card draw, that's why the combo decks aren't favoured against faster decks
about rag - well although i'm an owner of this legendary, i can't deny that's the acts as the best 8 drop and like the devs said "Should I add something instead of ragnaros, does this 8 drop work better than him?"; but just try to imagine how control decks run an 8 drop, just to hit minions, that would be only good if it's against one big minion on the board and not against a flooded one; this would make rag conditional, unreliable and not even control decks would want him (not to mention decks like dragon warrior last season, which aimed for the face) because people use him not only to control the board (with help of RNG of course), but also as a finisher it's a flexible* card, that's why his power level is so high your suggestion about the minions "gaining" taunt against him or that he cannot hit face the turn he is summoned would make it more fair, maybe, i'm not an expert, when it comes to card design
Note: not about my post, but about the topic i like how the devs make better versions of the charge mechanic - like the one to hit minions the turn it's summoned or if another condition takes place (like the piggies from gadgetzan), i also think, that that's more fair, more interactable and a step in the right direction
Leeroy could easily be reworked or just removed from the game. So far as I am aware, he has never been included in a deck with the intention of being used in an interactive way, the game can only benefit from his rework/removal. Ragnaros is an interesting one. I would suggest he is not an ultra charge minion but actually only a semi-charge minion as you cannot pick his target. Further, every minion your opponent has on the board gains taunt in a way since they decrease the odds of Ragnaros going face. Lets be honest though, Ragnaros was never exactly great card design in the first place, hence his recent removal to wild despite being in the classic set. I think he would be fine having his ability changed so that it cannot hit face, or cannot hit face on the turn he is played.
ammm about leeroy you can't just say, that he needs to be reworked or worse - to be completely removed from the game: - if you demanded a rework, he would just lose his nature like i said; when we say Leeroy, we describe a person, that immaturely chargesforward, you can't take this away from him + he has a "downside" in his text, summoning 2 whelps, that can kill him next turn - he is an iconic character from WOW and it's completely unimaginable, when there's a wow related game without him - in order for a card to be nerfed, it needs to be OP, like a bunch; back in the old days (as far as i'm aware) that card cost 4 mana and it was insane with the bounce effect, that's why it was changed to a 5 mana Fireball, which can be countered by taunts - about the non interactive part - yes, i hated it when locks killed me with the 20+ burst damage combo (2/3 of the hero's health) or how the rogues can still do 18 damage (leeroy, cold blood, cold blood, eviscerate) or 22 damage (leeroy, cold blood, cold blood, eviscerate + coin/prep + eviscerate) from hand, but that requires time and lucky card draw, that's why the combo decks aren't favoured against faster decks
about rag - well although i'm an owner of this legendary, i can't deny that's the acts as the best 8 drop and like the devs said "Should I add something instead of ragnaros, does this 8 drop work better than him?"; but just try to imagine how control decks run an 8 drop, just to hit minions, that would be only good if it's against one big minion on the board and not against a flooded one; this would make rag conditional, unreliable and not even control decks would want him (not to mention decks like dragon warrior last season, which aimed for the face) because people use him not only to control the board (with help of RNG of course), but also as a finisher it's a flexible* card, that's why his power level is so high your suggestion about the minions "gaining" taunt against him or that he cannot hit face the turn he is summoned would make it more fair, maybe, i'm not an expert, when it comes to card design
What I'm saying about Leeroy is he could keep charge, just with the restriction that he can't go face 1st turn. You could then buff him with stat increase/mana deacrease/remove the "downside". Now, about that "downside", how many times do you think the game goes to another turn after Leeroy is played? 1 in 10? I doubt it. 1 in 20? I'm still doubting. He is pretty much only used in OTK combos, those completely uninteractive combos that should not exist the game. Further, this isn't about him being OP, its about him being bad (really really bad) for the game. Also, can you really not conceive of Hearthstone without him? Is he really that integral to the game? Come on now, we know he isn't.
As for your response on Ragnaros, I don't think you understand him. Only aggro decks ever used him as a finisher, control decks use him for board control. That's why, when you play him as a control player, you nearly always pray to the RNG gods for him not to hit face. Thus, from a control point of view, making him unable to hit face at all or on the turn he is played would actually be a buff. As to your point about him then only being good against one or two minions and not a flooded board, that is already the case. Ragnaros is awful against a flooded board, essentially using up your whole turn to kill one tiny token/low cost minion. Nothing would change there.
Nah. I think a small amount of charge in the game is fine. Leeroy for example is a fine card. What shouldn't exist in the game is every weapon having charge.
What I'm saying about Leeroy is he could keep charge, just with the restriction that he can't go face 1st turn. You could then buff him with stat increase/mana deacrease/remove the "downside". Now, about that "downside", how many times do you think the game goes to another turn after Leeroy is played? 1 in 10? I doubt it. 1 in 20? I'm still doubting. He is pretty much only used in OTK combos, those completely uninteractive combos that should not exist the game. Further, this isn't about him being OP, its about him being bad (really really bad) for the game. Also, can you really not conceive of Hearthstone without him? Is he really that integral to the game? Come on now, we know he isn't.
Nah, dude, sorry but I have to disagree on many points you wanted to make.
1) Leeroy is almost always used to hit face, you can't just make his charge mechanic a weaker one, even if you buffed his stats. Instead using him to trade with a minion, you can use a spell for that matter and spells can bypass taunts. I mean the Charge spell now works that way, I'm glad that I don't run into OTK combos anymore, which used the pre nerf spell, but control warriors don't use this card for their minions to trade with one another. It's just not worth it - same thing would be with the suggested leeroy.
2) about the downside - i wasn't really serious, when i said it, but just looking at his stats he isn't as bad as you describe him leeroy wasn't used only in otks, some aggressive decks also needed him and there you could stop/block the damage with taunts, because aggro decks don't run removal
3) Also, can you really not conceive of Hearthstone without him? Is he really that integral to the game? Come on now, we know he isn't.
Uhh yes. He is even implemented in the MMORPG, there are achievements, which are a reference to him. I understand, that this isn't an argument to you, nor is this that convincing, but he is a part of the wow history and many people immediately think of him, when they hear vanilla wow moments. With the suggested change Leeroy won't be the same.
4) combo decks should always exist and even though we may not like them, because they aren't interactive, they are still essential that's why we should ask for more tools like Dirty Rat and Loatheb, we shouldn't bash that arch-type, instead we should want to be tech-ed more against it and please agree, that if the combo decks were slower (i'm looking at the QR), then there would be skill when to use the certain techs you would read your opponent's hand and will find the right time to use the tech the experience won't be frustrating for us, if we got more tools
5) about rag You think that control decks only use him to control the board? I can recall how many players used him on an empty board just to deal damage to me. Control decks too - especially when your opponent is pretty low, you always want him to hit face = to apply pressure. If rag only hit minions, that would make him less flexible. You would use 8 mana just to destroy a minion? - yes, you have an 8/8 body, but this won't really pay off as you think it will, because ragnaros would be good ONLY in the cases, when there's a big minion to clear. In any other case you would want to run an AOE in your deck instead. Because on the 8th turn only slow decks have a small board, every other deck can flood it by that time. And that's why rag won't be reliable, because you have to count on the RNG to hit the biggest minion. Control decks won't need him - an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion is way too expensive to be run in a deck. + The opponent can just ignore rag, he will hit a random minion anyway, they won't feel being threaten at all.
Note 1: aggro decks don't really run ragnaros, he is way too expensive (look at face hunter, PW), mid-range ones, that act aggressive, do however note 2: but like you suggested, if you want to make rag to be able to hit face only after the turn it was summoned or after the enemy board is clear, maybe that's ok, i won't argue with such decision
What I'm saying about Leeroy is he could keep charge, just with the restriction that he can't go face 1st turn. You could then buff him with stat increase/mana deacrease/remove the "downside". Now, about that "downside", how many times do you think the game goes to another turn after Leeroy is played? 1 in 10? I doubt it. 1 in 20? I'm still doubting. He is pretty much only used in OTK combos, those completely uninteractive combos that should not exist the game. Further, this isn't about him being OP, its about him being bad (really really bad) for the game. Also, can you really not conceive of Hearthstone without him? Is he really that integral to the game? Come on now, we know he isn't.
Nah, dude, sorry but I have to disagree on many points you wanted to make.
1) Leeroy is almost always used to hit face, you can't just make his charge mechanic a weaker one, even if you buffed his stats. Instead using him to trade with a minion, you can use a spell for that matter and spells can bypass taunts. I mean the Charge spell now works that way, I'm glad that I don't run into OTK combos anymore, which used the pre nerf spell, but control warriors don't use this card for their minions to trade with one another. It's just not worth it - same thing would be with the suggested leeroy.
2) about the downside - i wasn't really serious, when i said it, but just looking at his stats he isn't as bad as you describe him leeroy wasn't used only in otks, some aggressive decks also needed him and there you could stop/block the damage with taunts, because aggro decks don't run removal
3) Also, can you really not conceive of Hearthstone without him? Is he really that integral to the game? Come on now, we know he isn't.
Uhh yes. He is even implemented in the MMORPG, there are achievements, which are a reference to him. I understand, that this isn't an argument to you, nor is this that convincing, but he is a part of the wow history and many people immediately think of him, when they hear vanilla wow moments. With the suggested change Leeroy won't be the same.
4) combo decks should always exist and even though we may not like them, because they aren't interactive, they are still essential that's why we should ask for more tools like Dirty Rat and Loatheb, we shouldn't bash that arch-type, instead we should want to be tech-ed more against it and please agree, that if the combo decks were slower (i'm looking at the QR), then there would be skill when to use the certain techs you would read your opponent's hand and will find the right time to use the tech the experience won't be frustrating for us, if we got more tools
5) about rag You think that control decks only use him to control the board? I can recall how many players used him on an empty board just to deal damage to me. Control decks too - especially when your opponent is pretty low, you always want him to hit face = to apply pressure. If rag only hit minions, that would make him less flexible. You would use 8 mana just to destroy a minion? - yes, you have an 8/8 body, but this won't really pay off as you think it will, because ragnaros would be good ONLY in the cases, when there's a big minion to clear. In any other case you would want to run an AOE in your deck instead. Because on the 8th turn only slow decks have a small board, every other deck can flood it by that time. And that's why rag won't be reliable, because you have to count on the RNG to hit the biggest minion. Control decks won't need him - an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion is way too expensive to be run in a deck. + The opponent can just ignore rag, he will hit a random minion anyway, they won't feel being threaten at all.
Note 1: aggro decks don't really run ragnaros, he is way too expensive (look at face hunter, PW), mid-range ones, that act aggressive, do however note 2: but like you suggested, if you want to make rag to be able to hit face only after the turn it was summoned or after the enemy board is clear, maybe that's ok, i won't argue with such decision
1. "Leeroy is always used to hit face". Exactly...this is the exact problem. A card only used to hit face is bad card design. Trading 2 for 1 with tempo a charge minion gives you is powerful, with buffed stats he could do that, whats the problem? Not only is it powerful, its also interactive, the whole point of the no hit face on first turn change. Do people only ever use spells to kill minions? No.
2. "Some decks that weren't combo decks needed him". Any deck that is so reliant on an uninteractive card/mechanic should not exist. Their disappearance can only improve the game.
3. Correct, it is not an argument. Hearthstone will still be Hearthstone with a changed Leeroy (especially with one that retains the charge effect just can't go face first turn), or without Leeroy at all.
4. If there is a way to interact with OTK combo decks then sure they can exist, but there isn't, and so Blizzard should not allow them to exist until they come up with one. Dirty rat, one RNG based card, does not count.
5. Ragnaros is only used to hit face by control players if their opponent is very low. The vast majority of the time he is used to set up a 2 for 1 or better trade, something he would still be able to do (even better since he can't hit face first turn or at all and so the odds of him hitting that big minion you want him too are higher) thus Ragnaros would be better at his intended purpose with this change. Ragnaros is already only good when there is a big minion to clear, unless your opponent happens to be very low so not much change except for the better as I said.
5 (Rag Continued). "Control decks won't need him - an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion is way too expensive to be run in a deck. + The opponent can just ignore rag, he will hit a random minion anyway, they won't feel being threaten at all." This is literally the opposite of the truth. In control decks Rag has always been an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion, and has been a staple in pretty much every control deck ever. This is because he puts so much pressure on the board, killing your opponents minions for free and letting you pressure with other minions. Having Rag hit your minions in a control match up is what you don't want. In control vs control when the opponent plays Rag you pray for it to go face because it hitting your face is usually worthless because you have so much HP/Armour and healing. Thus, once again, the proposed change is a Ragnaros with regard to his usage in interactive decks.
Lol. Yeah dude. Changing the game mechanics won't make you better. Just realize that you can't play around leeroy combos/charge combos, because you are not good enough at the game. This does not mean that the game should change, you should change and become better. If you used your time and effort and actually becoming good rather than crying about charge mechanic you could have been legend. Anyways, for those who want to know, charge mechanics are fine as they are, quest rogue is not broken ( actually tier 2 deck) and everything is fine. Hearthstone is balanced, you have to get better.... Not the game!
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Was just thinking earlier That Majority of Tier One decks PirateWarrior Rogue? Not sure if it's considered Tier one haven't faced it in a week or so Etc have access to some Op Face damage and 75% of that is through Charge Minions. If Charge was changed to Attakc a minion when played / just removed from the game would that balance things or stop Over powered shit ?
At least this way I suppose aggro can still be around but the Charge minions can be interacted with. Heck there are aggro decks out there that use next to no charge and do fine.
Anyways curious to read other people's thoughts to gain other perspectives sorry for the wall of text
(note if spelling errors had a bit to drink will edit in the morning)
-Those who do not understand true pain, can never understand true peace.-
In my opinion making charge minions only able to attack other minions on the turn they are played, coupled with making flat damage spells unable to target your opponents face, would infinitely improve the game. These two mechanics are so obviously against Blizzard's apparent aim of making the game more interactive that it blows my mind that they haven't made the change. Some progress seems to be being made with the new Charged Devilsaur but I really don't understand why they can't change all such cards in one big patch.
Oh god please no. Think of us arena players that actually want to be able to win by outplaying with an aggro deck instead of crafting pure greed. The arena metagame is already way too greedy.
Removing a leader doesn't create an anarchist utopia. It simply creates a new leader.
Removing charge would effectively kill most of the aggro and combo decks as they would face the 'priest' styled problem of not being able to close out the game or apply enough pressure to threaten lethal well.
So would that bring balance? Nope. Instead the new king would be decks that normally are held back by aggro: slow rolling but unstoppable late game decks. Think Exodia mage and Jade Druid. What's more, they'd be able to get even more powerful since they wouldn't have to put in anti-aggro cards and, instead, put in cards to help support their later game and crush midrange decks.
Card games have a natural rock/paper/scissors feel to them. Aggro is meant to be a check against hyper greedy control decks. Remove rock and every game turns into a scissors match.
Charge is a VERY dangerous mechanic and was far overused back in the day. But completely eliminating it is just as dangerous.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Charged minions and Spells should never be able to hit face.
I think weapons are more of a problem than charge creatures. I think weapons should only be able to go face if the opponent has no creatures left on the board
Seems ok.
Although I don't like the aggro decks and oh boy how I enjoy, when a QR takes the win from me just because of the cheap chargers, ... I don't think that's a good idea.
Like iandakar said, decks like Jade and Exodia/freeze mage will prevail, also really greedy decks like the priest one in wild (with reno, kazakus, amara etc) will constantly out value the other decks (mid-range).
Yes, PW last season did an enormous damage to the game experience of veterans and newer players. Normally control decks should have handled it, but it even went that far and ended the games around t4, t5. Aggro hunter, also infamously known as face hunter, back in the days has been a pain in the ass with all of the chargers. And yes, I also don't like when I face an aggro deck, because I just play the defense/surviving game and nothing else, but you shouldn't take it away. Instead blizz should give us tools, more and more tools to handle them. Because a healthy environment consists of many arch-types.
Inb4 just imagine what it would be, if blizz DID remove the charge mechanic. How would Leeroy Jenkins look like, he would just lose his nature. And Ragnaros the Firelord would also be problematic, although there isn't a charge mechanic written in his text, he acts like the ultra charge minion, kinda - when summoned he aims for the face or when he "attacks" a minion, it "gains" a divine shield
If we look at the numerous times Blizzard(Team 5) has talked about Charge, we can quickly notice that they also think it's a problematic mechanic and wish they had done something else with it.
As we can see of the latest version of Charge, they have a downside (e.g only atk minion, only atk "face" the turn efter this turn). Which is the absolute correct way to use that mechanic.
Charge should have been "Only attack minions" and it would have still been a good mechanic. And not just a problematic mechanic that honestly, limits the design space by the highest amount, as they are so fond of saying.
I guess changing all the minions that still has the classic charge would be a bit to much re-balancing.
Personally I would say, to hell with that. Start working on it. :P
Check out my submission for this weeks card design competition; or my other fan creations! Nullius in verba
you can't just say, that he needs to be reworked or worse - to be completely removed from the game:
- if you demanded a rework, he would just lose his nature like i said; when we say Leeroy, we describe a person, that immaturely charges forward, you can't take this away from him + he has a "downside" in his text, summoning 2 whelps, that can kill him next turn
- he is an iconic character from WOW and it's completely unimaginable, when there's a wow related game without him
- in order for a card to be nerfed, it needs to be OP, like a bunch; back in the old days (as far as i'm aware) that card cost 4 mana and it was insane with the bounce effect, that's why it was changed to a 5 mana Fireball, which can be countered by taunts
- about the non interactive part - yes, i hated it when locks killed me with the 20+ burst damage combo (2/3 of the hero's health) or how the rogues can still do 18 damage (leeroy, cold blood, cold blood, eviscerate) or 22 damage (leeroy, cold blood, cold blood, eviscerate + coin/prep + eviscerate) from hand, but that requires time and lucky card draw, that's why the combo decks aren't favoured against faster decks
- well although i'm an owner of this legendary, i can't deny that's the acts as the best 8 drop and like the devs said "Should I add something instead of ragnaros, does this 8 drop work better than him?"; but just try to imagine how control decks run an 8 drop, just to hit minions, that would be only good if it's against one big minion on the board and not against a flooded one; this would make rag conditional, unreliable and not even control decks would want him (not to mention decks like dragon warrior last season, which aimed for the face)
because people use him not only to control the board (with help of RNG of course), but also as a finisher
it's a flexible* card, that's why his power level is so high
your suggestion about the minions "gaining" taunt against him or that he cannot hit face the turn he is summoned would make it more fair, maybe, i'm not an expert, when it comes to card design
Note: not about my post, but about the topic
i like how the devs make better versions of the charge mechanic - like the one to hit minions the turn it's summoned or if another condition takes place (like the piggies from gadgetzan), i also think, that that's more fair, more interactable and a step in the right direction
Nah. I think a small amount of charge in the game is fine. Leeroy for example is a fine card. What shouldn't exist in the game is every weapon having charge.
They have started to move away from this where things have charge but can only attack minions the turn they are played.
1) Leeroy is almost always used to hit face, you can't just make his charge mechanic a weaker one, even if you buffed his stats. Instead using him to trade with a minion, you can use a spell for that matter and spells can bypass taunts. I mean the Charge spell now works that way, I'm glad that I don't run into OTK combos anymore, which used the pre nerf spell, but control warriors don't use this card for their minions to trade with one another. It's just not worth it - same thing would be with the suggested leeroy.
2) about the downside - i wasn't really serious, when i said it, but just looking at his stats he isn't as bad as you describe him
leeroy wasn't used only in otks, some aggressive decks also needed him and there you could stop/block the damage with taunts, because aggro decks don't run removal
Uhh yes. He is even implemented in the MMORPG, there are achievements, which are a reference to him. I understand, that this isn't an argument to you, nor is this that convincing, but he is a part of the wow history and many people immediately think of him, when they hear vanilla wow moments. With the suggested change Leeroy won't be the same.
4) combo decks should always exist and even though we may not like them, because they aren't interactive, they are still essential
that's why we should ask for more tools like Dirty Rat and Loatheb, we shouldn't bash that arch-type, instead we should want to be tech-ed more against it
and please agree, that if the combo decks were slower (i'm looking at the QR), then there would be skill when to use the certain techs
you would read your opponent's hand and will find the right time to use the tech
the experience won't be frustrating for us, if we got more tools
5) about rag
You think that control decks only use him to control the board? I can recall how many players used him on an empty board just to deal damage to me. Control decks too - especially when your opponent is pretty low, you always want him to hit face = to apply pressure.
If rag only hit minions, that would make him less flexible. You would use 8 mana just to destroy a minion? - yes, you have an 8/8 body, but this won't really pay off as you think it will, because ragnaros would be good ONLY in the cases, when there's a big minion to clear. In any other case you would want to run an AOE in your deck instead. Because on the 8th turn only slow decks have a small board, every other deck can flood it by that time. And that's why rag won't be reliable, because you have to count on the RNG to hit the biggest minion. Control decks won't need him - an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion is way too expensive to be run in a deck. + The opponent can just ignore rag, he will hit a random minion anyway, they won't feel being threaten at all.
Note 1: aggro decks don't really run ragnaros, he is way too expensive (look at face hunter, PW), mid-range ones, that act aggressive, do however
note 2: but like you suggested, if you want to make rag to be able to hit face only after the turn it was summoned or after the enemy board is clear, maybe that's ok, i won't argue with such decision
Lol. Yeah dude. Changing the game mechanics won't make you better. Just realize that you can't play around leeroy combos/charge combos, because you are not good enough at the game. This does not mean that the game should change, you should change and become better. If you used your time and effort and actually becoming good rather than crying about charge mechanic you could have been legend. Anyways, for those who want to know, charge mechanics are fine as they are, quest rogue is not broken ( actually tier 2 deck) and everything is fine. Hearthstone is balanced, you have to get better.... Not the game!