I have finished top 300 legend a number of times and managed to get legend on 4 accounts in the same month and don't consider myself a good player. If you can finish top 100 consistently then you're a good player. If you hit legend regularly then you're certainly better than average but the indicator is more how quickly you hit legend. If you can get from rank 5 to legend with a good win rate especially within the first week of a new season then you are beating a lot of the better players out there and thus could consider yourself playing well
People that say it's just a grind to hit legend are probably hitting legend in the last week with a low 50's% win rate and that is not too difficult for a lot of players.
Good players don't consider hitting legend a grind as it doesn't take a lot of games or time to do it
Meanwhile some guy hits rank 18 and considers himself a good player. Yet this guy probably is in the top 1% but apparently is still not a good player.
A good player is not determined by rank. A good player is polite and doesn't just netdeck
Actually, no, a good player doesn't try to dictate what other people can and cannot play. A good player takes all challengers in stride, regardless of the archetype they are playing. A good player adapts to the meta instead of expecting the meta to adapt to one's individual preferences.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I find the whole question a bit puzzeling. It is a bit like asking "what is the PB of a good Marathon runner."
-Anyone who just completes a marathon impresses me!
-If you get under 3.30, you worked hard and should be very proud!
-All over 2.30 are scrubs, that is the STARTING level of serious competition.
-If you are a, pro, under 2.11.30 is good as it gets you to the Olympic Games.
Take your pick, it is all extremely relative. I hope the point of this thread is to find out what other forummembers think rather than trying to find a "right" answer.
I wouldnt say just because your legend your "good" it just means you played a ton of games in a mere 30 days to get there. I consider myself an above average player, best I ever got was rank 5.. could've got to legend from there but never had the time nor patience to get there, I work alot.. sue me
Yeah sure.. your best rank was 5, which can be achieved with a win % below 50 and yet you claim you can get to Legend even though you've never attempted it.
I call BS on that one, anyone thinking like you are just overestimating themselves.
A good player doesn't NEED a ton of games to get to Legend.
In my opinion skill matters very little. The game is not complicated. What truly matters and what separates the top legend players and rank 5 is mental discipline (and time, of course). No tilting, being patient, remembering matchups etc...You can be the best player in the world and you'll never make top legend if you let yourself get pissed off and start playing incorrectly.
Like for a lot of people, the thing that separates a player that hits rank 5 and a player that finishes rank 8/9 is something as simple as taking a break for a while after losing a few games in a row rather than keep banging your head against the wall while you're mad.
In my opinion skill matters very little. The game is not complicated. What truly matters and what separates the top legend players and rank 5 is mental discipline (and time, of course). No tilting, being patient, remembering matchups etc...You can be the best player in the world and you'll never make top legend if you let yourself get pissed off and start playing incorrectly.
Like for a lot of people, the thing that separates a player that hits rank 5 and a player that finishes rank 8/9 is something as simple as taking a break for a while after losing a few games in a row rather than keep banging your head against the wall while you're mad.
Wrong. Skill does matter, a lot.
It might not matter too much for ONE game but over the course of 200+ games, it is significant.
If it didn't matter you wouldn't have players reaching Legend within 80 games and those needing 200+ games.
In my opinion skill matters very little. The game is not complicated. What truly matters and what separates the top legend players and rank 5 is mental discipline (and time, of course). No tilting, being patient, remembering matchups etc...You can be the best player in the world and you'll never make top legend if you let yourself get pissed off and start playing incorrectly.
Like for a lot of people, the thing that separates a player that hits rank 5 and a player that finishes rank 8/9 is something as simple as taking a break for a while after losing a few games in a row rather than keep banging your head against the wall while you're mad.
Wrong. Skill does matter, a lot.
It might not matter too much for ONE game but over the course of 200+ games, it is significant.
If it didn't matter you wouldn't have players reaching Legend within 80 games and those needing 200+ games.
It depends what you call skill. Most misplays aren't caused by the person not knowing it was the best play, it's rushing or being on tilt to the point where they don't see it before playing. If you know the matchups and are focused, it's very hard to misplay except in fringe cases where the best play is something you can only guess at, like if there are multiple decent options and it depends on which cards they have in their hand.
In my opinion skill matters very little. The game is not complicated. What truly matters and what separates the top legend players and rank 5 is mental discipline (and time, of course). No tilting, being patient, remembering matchups etc...You can be the best player in the world and you'll never make top legend if you let yourself get pissed off and start playing incorrectly.
Like for a lot of people, the thing that separates a player that hits rank 5 and a player that finishes rank 8/9 is something as simple as taking a break for a while after losing a few games in a row rather than keep banging your head against the wall while you're mad.
Wrong. Skill does matter, a lot.
It might not matter too much for ONE game but over the course of 200+ games, it is significant.
If it didn't matter you wouldn't have players reaching Legend within 80 games and those needing 200+ games.
It depends what you call skill. Most misplays aren't caused by the person not knowing it was the best play, it's rushing or being on tilt to the point where they don't see it before playing. If you know the matchups and are focused, it's very hard to misplay except in fringe cases where the best play is something you can only guess at, like if there are multiple decent options and it depends on which cards they have in their hand.
Funny because very good players who stream such as dog, Zalae, Ike (could go on forever) are uncertain about their plays most of the time. Zalae often streams with top-level Hearthstone players and more often than not, they disagree with the plays. If top level players are very often unsure about their plays, how in the world can you say that's it's very hard to misplay ?
That's bullcrap. Playing your cards doesn't mean you're making optimal plays. The vast majority of players will play their hand without making optimal plays. It might seem like they are playing perfectly but they aren't.
And the amount of misplays is even more significant when you play decks that are hard to pilot.
Conclusion; skill does matter A LOT. Most players misplay every turn and aren't aware of it.
Like many on the thread already stated, I think it's more about win percentage than rank. First time I hit legend it took me weeks of playing several hours a day (couple of years ago). Since then I've been hitting legend quite consistently and noticed that every month it was so much easier and faster than the month before. For me a good player is who can squeeze wins in games where most of the other players would lose and in doing so has f.e. 65% WR instead of 55% in certain MUs.
If I would have to pick a rank I'd say passing through rank 4-3 makes you a good player, legend makes you better player but finishing in top legend is so much more difficult than that. People in top 200 are usually a lot more challenging to win against than average legend player.
And to people saying it's just a matter of grinding, it really isn't... Try and play control warrior mirror matches in standard right now. I can easily win through resource management and picking the right time for tempo plays in lower ranks but it gets so much harder the higher you climb on ladder.
I feel like you're not understanding my point. They are uncertain because there is a cap after which it is impossible to know what the best play is. That cap is pretty easy to reach, again in my opinion, which you are free to disagree with. If you know the deck you're up against (which is probably a good 90-95% of matchups unless you're new), you know they could have counters x y and z to your possible plays. Just because you do the best play assuming (hoping) they don't have Z and they end up having it, that's not a misplay. You can never play around literally everything, and the only way you can know for certain what they have is when fatigue starts playing a role.
It also doesn't particularly matter if you make minor misplays here and there. If you watch these streamers you will see that sometimes their opponents make absolutely braindead plays the whole game and still win. Maybe they won't stay in high legend or get there consistently, but they do get there.
Anyway, I stick by my point that if you want to improve as a player, you are better off trying to improve your focus/discipline first, then start thinking about skill once you have that mastered. Skill is meaningless if you're too drunk/mad to think.
I feel like you're not understanding my point. They are uncertain because there is a cap after which it is impossible to know what the best play is. That cap is pretty easy to reach, again in my opinion, which you are free to disagree with. If you know the deck you're up against (which is probably a good 90-95% of matchups unless you're new), you know they could have counters x y and z to your possible plays. Just because you do the best play assuming (hoping) they don't have Z and they end up having it, that's not a misplay. You can never play around literally everything, and the only way you can know for certain what they have is when fatigue starts playing a role.
It also doesn't particularly matter if you make minor misplays here and there. If you watch these streamers you will see that sometimes their opponents make absolutely braindead plays the whole game and still win. Maybe they won't stay in high legend or get there consistently, but they do get there.
Anyway, I stick by my point that if you want to improve as a player, you are better off trying to improve your focus/discipline first, then start thinking about skill once you have that mastered. Skill is meaningless if you're too drunk/mad to think.
I'm arguing that it's extremely hard to accurately play around X card vs Y card. It can be very difficult to make the perfect play based on the odds of your opponent having a specific card. Playing around a card that your opponent very likely does not have in his hand could be a misplay or could be a safe play that increases your changes of winning, so which one is it ? See what I mean, making the best decision based off the odds is difficult.
I feel like you're not understanding my point. They are uncertain because there is a cap after which it is impossible to know what the best play is. That cap is pretty easy to reach, again in my opinion, which you are free to disagree with. If you know the deck you're up against (which is probably a good 90-95% of matchups unless you're new), you know they could have counters x y and z to your possible plays. Just because you do the best play assuming (hoping) they don't have Z and they end up having it, that's not a misplay. You can never play around literally everything, and the only way you can know for certain what they have is when fatigue starts playing a role.
It also doesn't particularly matter if you make minor misplays here and there. If you watch these streamers you will see that sometimes their opponents make absolutely braindead plays the whole game and still win. Maybe they won't stay in high legend or get there consistently, but they do get there.
Anyway, I stick by my point that if you want to improve as a player, you are better off trying to improve your focus/discipline first, then start thinking about skill once you have that mastered. Skill is meaningless if you're too drunk/mad to think.
I'm arguing that it's extremely hard to accurately play around X card vs Y card. It can be very difficult to make the perfect play based on the odds of your opponent having a specific card. Playing around a card that your opponent very likely does not have in his hand could be a misplay or could be a safe play that increases your changes of winning, so which one is it ? See what I mean, making the best decision based off the odds is difficult.
Agree with this honestly. And also the most difficult decisions imo are those situations when you have to decide not play around Brawl for example because you cannot beat that card anyway, so you just ignore it and hope for the best. I find that most of the players (even legend players) don't do this right sometimes. A game of Hearthstone can have so many slightly different lines of play that can make a difference between winning and losing the game. Then of course sometimes people just play badly and win anyway because sometimes you just need to drag minions to the face :P
"Good player" is a relative term. I think most Rank 5 players know the basic of the game and don't do too many obvious mistakes anymore. So they can be consider "good player".
I personally think that a "good player" should finish consistently in top 250 Legend. But to be honest, since the Ladder stopped to give the pro players HCT Points, I find the competition quite weak. I used to find it hard to break into Top 100, but now you can do it without breaking a sweat.
"Good player" is a relative term. I think most Rank 5 players know the basic of the game and don't do too many obvious mistakes anymore. So they can be consider "good player".
I personally think that a "good player" should finish consistently in top 250 Legend. But to be honest, since the Ladder stopped to give the pro players HCT Points, I find the competition quite weak. I used to find it hard to break into Top 100, but now you can do it without breaking a sweat.
Yeah, making legend is easy if you have the time and will power to grind it out. Making consistent plays and smart strategies at whatever rank you are 15, 10, 5, etc is the real sign of a good player. The important thing is to not be naive and fooled into thinking it has anything to do with being a particular rank or achieving a particular rank repeatedly. How good you are as a player is determined by your play in any given game, not by a pointless number that gets reset every month.
Legend players thought Prince Keleseth, Dr. Boom, and Corridor Creeper would be bad cards. Take that as you will
I think perhaps it's safe to say that there are different areas of this sort of game that you can be good (or bad at). In the above instance, this falls under the ability to assess card strengths and synergies in a previously untested area. It would be part of the skillset for a good deck builder - but you might be really good at deck building but struggle in the actual game itself. And vice vera, of course. It's one of the nice things about this sort of game (Card-battling), that there are niche areas that you can gain skills in and become better at to improve overall. I would say that deck building and card value assessment are some of the more difficult skills to master and this is partly why you see so many people that prefer to netdeck as this is a skill they struggle with. Before the internet, games such as MtG and the like were much more diversely competitive, because even though you had popular decks around, they were harder to find / research and not so easily available at a click of a mouse. It meant that people were forced to train themselves to asses card values and how they could synergise in a deck, and what cards supported each other etc. This also led to becoming much more familiar with your deck and knowing what it was supposed to do and how to play it. It's veering a little off-topic here, but I believe that is partially why the skill-gap of Hearthstone is often considered to be fairly lower, since the readily available nature of netdecks removes the need for players to actually think about what decks to build / play and how to play them.
"Good player" is a relative term. I think most Rank 5 players know the basic of the game and don't do too many obvious mistakes anymore. So they can be consider "good player".
I personally think that a "good player" should finish consistently in top 250 Legend. But to be honest, since the Ladder stopped to give the pro players HCT Points, I find the competition quite weak. I used to find it hard to break into Top 100, but now you can do it without breaking a sweat.
So good player = top 250 players per server. Rest are bad
I hit legend once. I gave up on Priest at Rank 4 and switched to a Hunter Deck that was really good at that time (Boomsday). Then I got legend. Am I good, now? Idk. I felt like i had to consider my moves more when i was playing Priest up to Rank 4. But Considering and making the best plays your deck allows doesnt let you win. I realized that playing at the Right time the right deck brings you way further up the ranks. From Rank 5 to Legend its really just a Rock-Paper-Scissor game und you have to be guessing what deck your opponent plays. If you realize there are a lot of Rocks online right now, stop, come back 2 hours later and try again.
Rank 5 means you are able to play at a decent level. Constantly getting legend is a high level, beyond that is pro level.
Hearthstone isn't like some games where an average ladder scrub has no chance against top players - theres definitely a skill gap between them but it's not as tremendously huge as most games are.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Meanwhile some guy hits rank 18 and considers himself a good player. Yet this guy probably is in the top 1% but apparently is still not a good player.
Actually, no, a good player doesn't try to dictate what other people can and cannot play. A good player takes all challengers in stride, regardless of the archetype they are playing. A good player adapts to the meta instead of expecting the meta to adapt to one's individual preferences.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
I find the whole question a bit puzzeling. It is a bit like asking "what is the PB of a good Marathon runner."
-Anyone who just completes a marathon impresses me!
-If you get under 3.30, you worked hard and should be very proud!
-All over 2.30 are scrubs, that is the STARTING level of serious competition.
-If you are a, pro, under 2.11.30 is good as it gets you to the Olympic Games.
Take your pick, it is all extremely relative. I hope the point of this thread is to find out what other forummembers think rather than trying to find a "right" answer.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
Yeah sure.. your best rank was 5, which can be achieved with a win % below 50 and yet you claim you can get to Legend even though you've never attempted it.
I call BS on that one, anyone thinking like you are just overestimating themselves.
A good player doesn't NEED a ton of games to get to Legend.
If you're asking what makes someone a "good" player, I'd say being able to consistently hit rank 5 each month (if time allows).
If you're asking what makes someone a "very good" player, I'd say being able to hit top 1000 legend (again if time allows).
But great players are only those people who consistently make the top 100 legend every month (or place top 16 in major tournaments, etc)
In my opinion skill matters very little. The game is not complicated. What truly matters and what separates the top legend players and rank 5 is mental discipline (and time, of course). No tilting, being patient, remembering matchups etc...You can be the best player in the world and you'll never make top legend if you let yourself get pissed off and start playing incorrectly.
Like for a lot of people, the thing that separates a player that hits rank 5 and a player that finishes rank 8/9 is something as simple as taking a break for a while after losing a few games in a row rather than keep banging your head against the wall while you're mad.
Wrong. Skill does matter, a lot.
It might not matter too much for ONE game but over the course of 200+ games, it is significant.
If it didn't matter you wouldn't have players reaching Legend within 80 games and those needing 200+ games.
It depends what you call skill. Most misplays aren't caused by the person not knowing it was the best play, it's rushing or being on tilt to the point where they don't see it before playing. If you know the matchups and are focused, it's very hard to misplay except in fringe cases where the best play is something you can only guess at, like if there are multiple decent options and it depends on which cards they have in their hand.
Funny because very good players who stream such as dog, Zalae, Ike (could go on forever) are uncertain about their plays most of the time. Zalae often streams with top-level Hearthstone players and more often than not, they disagree with the plays. If top level players are very often unsure about their plays, how in the world can you say that's it's very hard to misplay ?
That's bullcrap. Playing your cards doesn't mean you're making optimal plays. The vast majority of players will play their hand without making optimal plays. It might seem like they are playing perfectly but they aren't.
And the amount of misplays is even more significant when you play decks that are hard to pilot.
Conclusion; skill does matter A LOT. Most players misplay every turn and aren't aware of it.
Like many on the thread already stated, I think it's more about win percentage than rank. First time I hit legend it took me weeks of playing several hours a day (couple of years ago). Since then I've been hitting legend quite consistently and noticed that every month it was so much easier and faster than the month before. For me a good player is who can squeeze wins in games where most of the other players would lose and in doing so has f.e. 65% WR instead of 55% in certain MUs.
If I would have to pick a rank I'd say passing through rank 4-3 makes you a good player, legend makes you better player but finishing in top legend is so much more difficult than that. People in top 200 are usually a lot more challenging to win against than average legend player.
And to people saying it's just a matter of grinding, it really isn't... Try and play control warrior mirror matches in standard right now. I can easily win through resource management and picking the right time for tempo plays in lower ranks but it gets so much harder the higher you climb on ladder.
I feel like you're not understanding my point. They are uncertain because there is a cap after which it is impossible to know what the best play is. That cap is pretty easy to reach, again in my opinion, which you are free to disagree with. If you know the deck you're up against (which is probably a good 90-95% of matchups unless you're new), you know they could have counters x y and z to your possible plays. Just because you do the best play assuming (hoping) they don't have Z and they end up having it, that's not a misplay. You can never play around literally everything, and the only way you can know for certain what they have is when fatigue starts playing a role.
It also doesn't particularly matter if you make minor misplays here and there. If you watch these streamers you will see that sometimes their opponents make absolutely braindead plays the whole game and still win. Maybe they won't stay in high legend or get there consistently, but they do get there.
Anyway, I stick by my point that if you want to improve as a player, you are better off trying to improve your focus/discipline first, then start thinking about skill once you have that mastered. Skill is meaningless if you're too drunk/mad to think.
I'm arguing that it's extremely hard to accurately play around X card vs Y card. It can be very difficult to make the perfect play based on the odds of your opponent having a specific card. Playing around a card that your opponent very likely does not have in his hand could be a misplay or could be a safe play that increases your changes of winning, so which one is it ? See what I mean, making the best decision based off the odds is difficult.
Agree with this honestly. And also the most difficult decisions imo are those situations when you have to decide not play around Brawl for example because you cannot beat that card anyway, so you just ignore it and hope for the best. I find that most of the players (even legend players) don't do this right sometimes. A game of Hearthstone can have so many slightly different lines of play that can make a difference between winning and losing the game. Then of course sometimes people just play badly and win anyway because sometimes you just need to drag minions to the face :P
"Good player" is a relative term. I think most Rank 5 players know the basic of the game and don't do too many obvious mistakes anymore. So they can be consider "good player".
I personally think that a "good player" should finish consistently in top 250 Legend. But to be honest, since the Ladder stopped to give the pro players HCT Points, I find the competition quite weak. I used to find it hard to break into Top 100, but now you can do it without breaking a sweat.
Yeah, making legend is easy if you have the time and will power to grind it out.
Making consistent plays and smart strategies at whatever rank you are 15, 10, 5, etc is the real sign of a good player.
The important thing is to not be naive and fooled into thinking it has anything to do with being a particular rank or achieving a particular rank repeatedly.
How good you are as a player is determined by your play in any given game, not by a pointless number that gets reset every month.
Legend players thought Prince Keleseth, Dr. Boom, and Corridor Creeper would be bad cards. Take that as you will
I think perhaps it's safe to say that there are different areas of this sort of game that you can be good (or bad at).
In the above instance, this falls under the ability to assess card strengths and synergies in a previously untested area.
It would be part of the skillset for a good deck builder - but you might be really good at deck building but struggle in the actual game itself. And vice vera, of course.
It's one of the nice things about this sort of game (Card-battling), that there are niche areas that you can gain skills in and become better at to improve overall.
I would say that deck building and card value assessment are some of the more difficult skills to master and this is partly why you see so many people that prefer to netdeck as this is a skill they struggle with.
Before the internet, games such as MtG and the like were much more diversely competitive, because even though you had popular decks around, they were harder to find / research and not so easily available at a click of a mouse. It meant that people were forced to train themselves to asses card values and how they could synergise in a deck, and what cards supported each other etc. This also led to becoming much more familiar with your deck and knowing what it was supposed to do and how to play it.
It's veering a little off-topic here, but I believe that is partially why the skill-gap of Hearthstone is often considered to be fairly lower, since the readily available nature of netdecks removes the need for players to actually think about what decks to build / play and how to play them.
So good player = top 250 players per server. Rest are bad
I hit legend once. I gave up on Priest at Rank 4 and switched to a Hunter Deck that was really good at that time (Boomsday). Then I got legend. Am I good, now? Idk. I felt like i had to consider my moves more when i was playing Priest up to Rank 4. But Considering and making the best plays your deck allows doesnt let you win. I realized that playing at the Right time the right deck brings you way further up the ranks. From Rank 5 to Legend its really just a Rock-Paper-Scissor game und you have to be guessing what deck your opponent plays. If you realize there are a lot of Rocks online right now, stop, come back 2 hours later and try again.
Rank 5 means you are able to play at a decent level. Constantly getting legend is a high level, beyond that is pro level.
Hearthstone isn't like some games where an average ladder scrub has no chance against top players - theres definitely a skill gap between them but it's not as tremendously huge as most games are.