Hearthpwn

Was just thinking earlier That Majority of Tier One decks PirateWarrior Rogue? Not sure if it's considered Tier one haven't faced it in a week or so Etc have access to some Op Face damage and 75% of that is through Charge Minions. If Charge was changed to Attakc a minion when played / just removed from the game would that balance things or stop Over powered shit ? 

At least this way I suppose aggro can still be around but the Charge minions can be interacted with. Heck there are aggro decks out there that use next to no charge and do fine. 

Anyways curious to read other people's thoughts to gain other perspectives sorry for the wall of text

(note if spelling errors had a bit to drink will edit in the morning)

In my opinion making charge minions only able to attack other minions on the turn they are played, coupled with making flat damage spells unable to target your opponents face, would infinitely improve the game. These two mechanics are so obviously against Blizzard's apparent aim of making the game more interactive that it blows my mind that they haven't made the change. Some progress seems to be being made with the new Charged Devilsaur but I really don't understand why they can't change all such cards in one big patch.

Oh god please no. Think of us arena players that actually want to be able to win by outplaying with an aggro deck instead of crafting pure greed. The arena metagame is already way too greedy.

Removing a leader  doesn't create an anarchist utopia.  It simply creates a new leader.

Removing charge would effectively kill most of the aggro and combo decks as they would face the 'priest' styled problem of not being able to close out the game or apply enough pressure to threaten lethal well.  

So would that bring balance? Nope.  Instead the new king would be decks that normally are held back by aggro: slow rolling but unstoppable late game decks.  Think Exodia mage and Jade Druid.  What's more, they'd be able to get even more powerful since they wouldn't have to put in anti-aggro cards and, instead, put in cards to help support their later game and crush midrange decks.  

Card games have a natural rock/paper/scissors feel to them.  Aggro is meant to be a check against hyper greedy control decks.  Remove rock and every game turns into a scissors match.

Charge is a VERY dangerous mechanic and was far overused back in the day.  But completely eliminating it is just as dangerous.

Quote from Athanatov >>

Oh god please no. Think of us arena players that actually want to be able to win by outplaying with an aggro deck instead of crafting pure greed. The arena metagame is already way too greedy.

Quote from iandakar >>

Removing a leader  doesn't create an anarchist utopia.  It simply creates a new leader.

Removing charge would effectively kill most of the aggro and combo decks as they would face the 'priest' styled problem of not being able to close out the game or apply enough pressure to threaten lethal well.  

So would that bring balance? Nope.  Instead the new king would be decks that normally are held back by aggro: slow rolling but unstoppable late game decks.  Think Exodia mage and Jade Druid.  What's more, they'd be able to get even more powerful since they wouldn't have to put in anti-aggro cards and, instead, put in cards to help support their later game and crush midrange decks.  

Card games have a natural rock/paper/scissors feel to them.  Aggro is meant to be a check against hyper greedy control decks.  Remove rock and every game turns into a scissors match.

Charge is a VERY dangerous mechanic and was far overused back in the day.  But completely eliminating it is just as dangerous.

Quote from ikbensjorsenmijnpiemelisfors >>

Quote from Blink391 >>

I, coupled with making flat damage spells unable to target your opponents face, would infinitely improve the game. 

No, that would ruin the game. it would kill any spell based deck like freezemage and miracle rogue, which are in my opinion awesome decks (miracle being my favorite deck of all time)

Charged minions and Spells should never be able to hit face.

I think weapons are more of a problem than charge creatures. I think weapons should only be able to go face if the opponent has no creatures left on the board

Quote from Ilikemoba >>

I think weapons are more of a problem than charge creatures. I think weapons should only be able to go face if the opponent has no creatures left on the board

Quote from CyberWarrior1337 >>

Quote from Blink391 >>

Quote from Athanatov >>

Oh god please no. Think of us arena players that actually want to be able to win by outplaying with an aggro deck instead of crafting pure greed. The arena metagame is already way too greedy.

 So clicking on a card in your hand and then on your opponent's face to deal damage with no counter-play or interaction possible falls under your definition of outplaying does it?

Quote from iandakar >>

Removing a leader  doesn't create an anarchist utopia.  It simply creates a new leader.

Removing charge would effectively kill most of the aggro and combo decks as they would face the 'priest' styled problem of not being able to close out the game or apply enough pressure to threaten lethal well.  

So would that bring balance? Nope.  Instead the new king would be decks that normally are held back by aggro: slow rolling but unstoppable late game decks.  Think Exodia mage and Jade Druid.  What's more, they'd be able to get even more powerful since they wouldn't have to put in anti-aggro cards and, instead, put in cards to help support their later game and crush midrange decks.  

Card games have a natural rock/paper/scissors feel to them.  Aggro is meant to be a check against hyper greedy control decks.  Remove rock and every game turns into a scissors match.

Charge is a VERY dangerous mechanic and was far overused back in the day.  But completely eliminating it is just as dangerous.

 We aren't talking about removing a leader. This isn't about a deck or class or card or even a mechanic being overpowered. It is about a mechanic being uninteractive, unsatisfying and frustrating. Things which Blizzard have said they want to remove. Removing charge would not kill aggro decks at all, many of which contain none or very few charge minions. Even if it did, then they deserve to die, if an archtype is that reliant s on such an uninteractive mechanic then it should not have a place in the game. Once again this is not about balance in my opinion, its about game design. Again, aggro will be minimally affected. If there is a change, then the new aggro will just be the next fastest deck and thats fine, deck speed isn't an issue, lack on inter-activeness is.

 And suddenly Priest and Warrior rises and just steals/removes every minion you play. As a result there will again be the debate of being uninteractive, because you can't counterplay and just watch the game to end.

This doesn't mean that i am against this change (actually i would like the change), just that i think this change will not stop the uninteractive behaviour of the game.

Quote from Boethion >>

Quote from chiribuchiriba >>

I think that charge would not be that problematic if there were less charge minions.

 We have very few real Charge minions already after the rotation and the only Charger that currently sees play outside of Warrior and Hunter, who are meant to be Aggro-classes anyway, is Bluegill Warrior because of the Murloc-tag. There is also Zoo and Doomguard, but Warlock is trash tier righ now so I'm going to ignore that one.

If anything Charge gets abused for Combos rather than Aggro, so I would actually like to see more Charge minions, but with additional utility at the cost of Attack like Argent Horserider or even more defensive statlines like Stormwind Knight.

Quote from Kovachut >>

Inb4 just imagine what it would be, if blizz DID remove the charge mechanic. How would Leeroy Jenkins look like, he would just lose his nature. And Ragnaros the Firelord would also be problematic, although there isn't a charge mechanic written in his text, he acts like the ultra charge minion, kinda - when summoned he aims for the face or when he "attacks" a minion, it "gains" a divine shield

Quote from Kovachut >>

Quote from Blink391 >>

 Leeroy could easily be reworked or just removed from the game. So far as I am aware, he has never been included in a deck with the intention of being used in an interactive way, the game can only benefit from his rework/removal. Ragnaros is an interesting one. I would suggest he is not an ultra charge minion but actually only a semi-charge minion as you cannot pick his target. Further, every minion your opponent has on the board gains taunt in a way since they decrease the odds of Ragnaros going face. Lets be honest though, Ragnaros was never exactly great card design in the first place, hence his recent removal to wild despite being in the classic set. I think he would be fine having his ability changed so that it cannot hit face, or cannot hit face on the turn he is played.

ammm about leeroy
you can't just say, that he needs to be reworked or worse - to be completely removed from the game:
- if you demanded a rework, he would just lose his nature like i said; when we say Leeroy, we describe a person, that immaturely charges forward, you can't take this away from him + he has a "downside" in his text, summoning 2 whelps, that can kill him next turn
- he is an iconic character from WOW and it's completely unimaginable, when there's a wow related game without him
- in order for a card to be nerfed, it needs to be OP, like a bunch; back in the old days (as far as i'm aware) that card cost 4 mana and it was insane with the bounce effect, that's why it was changed to a 5 mana Fireball, which can be countered by taunts
- about the non interactive part - yes, i hated it when locks killed me with the 20+ burst damage combo (2/3 of the hero's health) or how the rogues can still do 18 damage (leeroy, cold blood, cold blood, eviscerate) or 22 damage (leeroy, cold blood, cold blood, eviscerate + coin/prep + eviscerate) from hand, but that requires time and lucky card draw, that's why the combo decks aren't favoured against faster decks

about rag
- well although i'm an owner of this legendary, i can't deny that's the acts as the best 8 drop and like the devs said "Should I add something instead of ragnaros, does this 8 drop work better than him?"; but just try to imagine how control decks run an 8 drop, just to hit minions, that would be only good if it's against one big minion on the board and not against a flooded one; this would make rag conditional, unreliable and not even control decks would want him (not to mention decks like dragon warrior last season, which aimed for the face)
because people use him not only to control the board (with help of RNG of course), but also as a finisher
it's a flexible* card, that's why his power level is so high
your suggestion about the minions "gaining" taunt against him or that he cannot hit face the turn he is summoned would make it more fair, maybe, i'm not an expert, when it comes to card design

 

Nah. I think a small amount of charge in the game is fine. Leeroy for example is a fine card. What shouldn't exist in the game is every weapon having charge.

They have started to move away from this where things have charge but can only attack minions the turn they are played.

Quote from Kovachut >>

Quote from Blink391 >>

 What I'm saying about Leeroy is he could keep charge, just with the restriction that he can't go face 1st turn. You could then buff him with stat increase/mana deacrease/remove the "downside". Now, about that "downside", how many times do you think the game goes to another turn after Leeroy is played? 1 in 10? I doubt it. 1 in 20? I'm still doubting. He is pretty much only used in OTK combos, those completely uninteractive combos that should not exist the game. Further, this isn't about him being OP, its about him being bad (really really bad) for the game. Also, can you really not conceive of Hearthstone without him? Is he really that integral to the game? Come on now, we know he isn't.

 Nah, dude, sorry but I have to disagree on many points you wanted to make.

1) Leeroy is almost always used to hit face, you can't just make his charge mechanic a weaker one, even if you buffed his stats. Instead using him to trade with a minion, you can use a spell for that matter and spells can bypass taunts. I mean the Charge spell now works that way, I'm glad that I don't run into OTK combos anymore, which used the pre nerf spell, but control warriors don't use this card for their minions to trade with one another. It's just not worth it - same thing would be with the suggested leeroy. 

2) about the downside - i wasn't really serious, when i said it, but just looking at his stats he isn't as bad as you describe him
leeroy wasn't used only in otks, some aggressive decks also needed him and there you could stop/block the damage with taunts, because aggro decks don't run removal

3) Also, can you really not conceive of Hearthstone without him? Is he really that integral to the game? Come on now, we know he isn't.

Uhh yes. He is even implemented in the MMORPG, there are achievements, which are a reference to him. I understand, that this isn't an argument to you, nor is this that convincing, but he is a part of the wow history and many people immediately think of him, when they hear vanilla wow moments. With the suggested change Leeroy won't be the same.

4) combo decks should always exist and even though we may not like them, because they aren't interactive, they are still essential 
that's why we should ask for more tools like Dirty Rat and Loatheb, we shouldn't bash that arch-type, instead we should want to be tech-ed more against it
and please agree, that if the combo decks were slower (i'm looking at the QR), then there would be skill when to use the certain techs
you would read your opponent's hand and will find the right time to use the tech
the experience won't be frustrating for us, if we got more tools

5) about rag
You think that control decks only use him to control the board? I can recall how many players used him on an empty board just to deal damage to me. Control decks too - especially when your opponent is pretty low, you always want him to hit face = to apply pressure. 
If rag only hit minions, that would make him less flexible. You would use 8 mana just to destroy a minion? - yes, you have an 8/8 body, but this won't really pay off as you think it will, because ragnaros would be good ONLY in the cases, when there's a big minion to clear. In any other case you would want to run an AOE in your deck instead. Because on the 8th turn only slow decks have a small board, every other deck can flood it by that time. And that's why rag won't be reliable, because you have to count on the RNG to hit the biggest minion. Control decks won't need him - an 8 mana RNG based clearing minion is way too expensive to be run in a deck. + The opponent can just ignore rag, he will hit a random minion anyway, they won't feel being threaten at all.

Note 1: aggro decks don't really run ragnaros, he is way too expensive (look at face hunter, PW), mid-range ones, that act aggressive, do however
note 2: but like you suggested, if you want to make rag to be able to hit face only after the turn it was summoned or after the enemy board is clear, maybe that's ok, i won't argue with such decision

Lol. Yeah dude. Changing the game mechanics won't make you better. Just realize that you can't play around leeroy combos/charge combos, because you are not good enough at the game. This does not mean that the game should change, you should change and become better. If you used your time and effort and actually becoming good rather than crying about charge mechanic you could have been legend. Anyways, for those who want to know, charge mechanics are fine as they are, quest rogue is not broken ( actually tier 2 deck) and everything is fine. Hearthstone is balanced, you have to get better.... Not the game!