I've been seeing this a lot lately, people saying odd/even was a bad idea and should be nerfed or HoFed (if we're talking about standard only). Many different positions have been taken to try and provide reasoning for this, but I want to focus on one in particular that I feel is the most illogical and weakest of these (and that I quite frankly can't stomach reading half of the time) and that is that Odd/Even decks are a bad idea based on the premise that 'If you play a deck that restricts what cards you can use then it shouldn't be a strong/consistent/top tier deck.' And if it is a strong deck based on those restrictions then something is wrong. First off, less than half of the total 18 Odd/Even decks even took off as consistent ladder decks, and second, saying that Odd/Even is a problem because it follows synergies that don't always suck makes as much sense as saying aggro was a bad idea for pulling off wins after restricting itself to only cheap cards or control is a problem for pulling off wins for restricting itself to slow reactive cards.
For those HS newbies out there this is pretty much the exact same line of reasoning that was used against Reno decks back in the LoE and post LoE metas as well. This line of thinking is quite facepalm worthy imo. If the decks had no incentive to play them after restricting what you can play (ie through hero power boosts in this case) then the playstyle wouldn't take off outside of casual/meme play. Too often nerf threads/posts discussing this playstyle often want to nerf Genn & Baku because it actually produced *some* decks that work (ie hating on the current strong deck(s) because it beats your [Insert deck you netdecked here]. If you don't believe me that this is the primary reason why people want the playstyle nerfed then allow me to point you in the deck of all of the complaints posts about other non-popular Odd/Even decks that aren't consistent; Even Mage, Even Priest, Odd Priest, Odd Warlock, Even Druid, Odd Druid, Even Rogue (to a lesser extent), Odd Shaman, Even Hunter (again to a lesser extent), and Even Warrior.
So Odd/Even decks should be nerfed because it created roughly 7 out of 18 Odd/Even combinations (in either format I might add) that actually took off? Yep, clearly not a case of hating on [Insert popular deck(s) here].
Genn and Baku are the worst HS idea ever imo. Devs often say that, this or that is limiting design space... and it is bad thing. Well, we could see how Genn and Baku are limiting design space in current meta with Giggling Inventor nerf from 5 to 7. 6 could not happen it would be to good for even decks, sadly this will be the HS case untill Genn and Baku will rotate out.
Genn and Baku are the worst HS idea ever imo. Devs often say that, this or that is limiting design space... and it is bad thing. Well, we could see how Genn and Baku are limiting design space in current meta with Giggling Inventor nerf from 5 to 7. 6 could not happen it would be to good for even decks, sadly this will be the HS case untill Genn and Baku will rotate out.
So Genn is limiting design space because an even cost card might make an even deck better & Baku is doing the same except for odd decks? You're kidding right? What's next, aggro is limiting design because it means new powerful cheap stuff can't be released, or control is limiting the game from releasing new powerhouse value engines or removal? A card/deck isn't limiting design space just by the inevitable fact that at some point a new card will eventually make it better. That happens with literally every single card or deck and we know that the game can't invalidate itself by declaring everything as being self-limiting due to old stuff unavoidably getting better with new stuff.
It's easy to bemoan Genn & Baku as being the death knell of HS, but honestly there are still a good number of classes that don't even utilize either card for a competitive deck. Why doesn't druid run Baku? It is because the extra armor still isn't worth sacrificing Branching Paths & UI for. Why doesn't druid run Genn? It is because you lose most of the druid deck win conditions (Hadronnox, Malfurion, Azalina, Malygos, Spiteful Summoner, Naturalize, etc). Should we talk about how Genn/Baku is also so design limiting that priest and hunter also do not run them in any top tier wild or standard decks. How about the reality that the only class that has managed to make a good deck using both Genn and Baku has been paladin (I guess the other 11 Odd/Even decks that are not being used in the meta must be sleepers right?)
Reno didn't end HS with the invention of singleton decks, which have only gotten better, & neither will Baku/Genn for odd/even decks. This should painfully obvious considering that many of the top performing standard decks are variants of hunter (spell, deathrattle/recruit/cube) which do not run Genn or Baku AND prior to the druid nerfs druid was also on top (which surprise surprise did not run even or odd decks at all), but sure odd & even are warping the game so much that they still aren't producing the most consistent tier 1 deck. I guess limiting design space is defined as producing good decks that can't beat the best decks?
I agree. I even remember when Odd/Even mechanic was revealed, lots of people thought it wouldn't go anywhere.
I personally like the mechanic. It does create different deckbuilding options and limitations. The setback of not using any Odd or Even cards is pretty big, so something needs to be received back.
Take Odd Mage, for example. A Controlish version lacks Blizzard, Meteor, Polymorph. Sometimes the hero power gets more done...or can be also a liability. Aggressive Mages loses Frostbolt, Fireball, Aluneth, Pyroblast, Cosmic Anomaly, Primordial Glyph, Kirin Tor Mage, etc. But sometimes the hero power gets it done when the HP keeps the board off-limits for a long period of time and your minions get most of the job done.
Even Paladin really suffers from lack of card draw. Guess what, Divine Favor is odd. Exactly when Call to Arms (pulling Loot Hoarders) was even and Paladin had some absurd deck thinning with it is when the deck was the top deck.
Odd Paladin could flood the board, but if you lost it, you could never go back because you didn't have access to Equality + Pyro/Consec, Tarim, etc.
It would be a problem if every deck was only Odd/Even, but this is far from being true. Those decks share space with no problems with various others non-Odd/Even decks.
Odd Warr, Odd/Even Paladin, Even Shaman, Even Warlock and Odd Rogue were the only standouts. 6 out of 18 possible. The four top decks of Hunter are not Odd/Even. Druids and Priests didn't use either as well.
To me it's not as much a matter of powerlevel as it is a matter of repetitiveness. Every game vs an odd/even deck is the same. You might argue that this is the case against any smorc/early deck and you might be right to a degree but the matter is even worse here. Against any deck, you pretty much expect their plays on early turns but having the turns 2/4/6 and 1/3/5 respectively, not just expected but predetermined exacerbates the issue.
I just don't like how you get so much value out of the hero power. Rogue and paladin are good examples. If rogue goes first and puts a dire mole in play you better get something going on cause the hero power kills every single 2 health minion or you are soon gonna get snowballed to absolute oblivion. Same with paladin. He gets 2 1/1 minions, you kill them and he puts them back and he does that every single turn and you need to kill them all the time cause that 1 turn you wont kill them enough, level up (nerfed yes) corridor creeper and some other minion buff thing happens.
I find genn more fair than baku only because I don't like the fact of having upgraded hero power on turn 2. Do you know what you had to do before? You needed to draw a specific 1 copy of a minion on turn 6 and be able to play it since the tempo loss was huge. There is literally no reason to play justicar anymore and its sad. Maybe some control warrior might run it but odd is just so good.
Currently in Wild, the top Dude deck is still Odd Paladin, despite the nerf.
Now, if they keep up with wise design, they will never provide another Quartermaster for Odd Paladin in the future. Now, more in the future, let's say they want to add more synergy to Hero Power? If they are still wise, they will make it something similar to the current Level Up!, that is an Even card. There's plenty of design space there, because Even Paladin cannot really abuse the board as Odd Paladin can.
Let's say that at a point in the far future Even Paladin becomes the new way to play Dudeadin, for some reason? They can go back with Odd synergies (or just no hero power synergies at all!).
That process pretty much fixes any lack of design space in Standard, even if Genn/Baku were Classic cards!
And so on and so forth in the far future. The result is that however powerful Even or Odd Paladin will ever be, in Standard or Wild, there will always be a way to select the top notch synergies of both in Wild, sacrificing an efficient hero power in the process, and building a new non-Odd non-Even Dudeadin.
Keep in mind that before Odd was a thing, one of the top dogs in Wild was a mana-neutral Dudeadin: Dudeadin was already a thing. And I would argue that with the nerf to Level Up!, a new non-Odd Dudeadin should return in Wild meta, sooner or later.
Similar decks maybe, but none of them will devour the others forever. One of them will be slightly better at a given time, bested by another soon after.
My issue with Odd/Even decks isn't that build-restrictive decks should not be allowed to be Tier 1. If anything, that criticism only applies to Keleseth because of how discrepantly powerful its decks become when it is played early.
My issue is that, as long as Genn/Baku exist, cards that have the misfortune of being printed with the "wrong" mana cost just lose most hope of seeing play. They cut in half the acceptable cards a class is allowed to play.
"Oh wow, a 6-drop for CW. Nope, wait, only Odd cards can be played in Control Warrior decks now."
"The mage loa, awesome! Wait a sec, the spirit that synergizes with it does not share its odd cost. I guess those two will never see play together..."
That is why I dislike Odds and Evens. They have butchered most of my hype for expansions simply because of how badly they strangled everyone's collection if they want to stay competitive.
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
My issue with Odd/Even decks isn't that build-restrictive decks should not be allowed to be Tier 1. If anything, that criticism only applies to Keleseth because of how discrepantly powerful its decks become when it is played early.
My issue is that, as long as Genn/Baku exist, cards that have the misfortune of being printed with the "wrong" mana cost just lose most hope of seeing play. They cut in half the acceptable cards a class is allowed to play.
"Oh wow, a 6-drop for CW. Nope, wait, only Odd cards can be played in Control Warrior decks now."
"The mage loa, awesome! Wait a sec, the spirit that synergizes with it does not share its odd cost. I guess those two will never see play together..."
That is why I dislike Odds and Evens. They have butchered most of my hype for expansions simply because of how badly they strangled everyone's collection if they want to stay competitive.
can you imagine how OP Odd Mage would be if the spirit could be played in it? There's a reason for that. As for your statement, they can be played together, just not with Baku.
Odd and Even isn't any more limiting design-wise than any other hearthstone mechanic. I don't even get how you say they've strangled everyone's collection. Of all of the Tier 1 and 2 decks, there's only 4 classes using the mechanic for a whopping total of 6 decks out of 16 decks. If you expand that to Tier 3 that brings the count to 5 classes and 7 of 27 decks. The power levels of these decks isn't super high to the point of being design limiting. Seems like everyone's collection is just fine with plenty of options
If "limiting design space" was a real problem, we wouldn't have seen Spirit of the Dragonhawk printed. Like, at all. Or with an unplayable mana cost.
Instead, they printed it as Even cost, and efficient as well, because it was ok there.
The only criticism with real implications is that of Jaina, about predictable turns or plays. But that is not a critical problem afterall, IF meta is/was balanced and varied enough. I mean, all decks feel repetitive after they crystallize in Wild for a long time...
No, OP completely misses what is problematic about even/odd decks—i.e., they provide an immediate advantage at the start of each game. Pointing out that there aren’t many “consistent” even/odd decks doesn’t amount to much.
In Reno decks, you sacrifice consistency for the chance to potentially full heal. This trade-off is (more) balanced because limiting your deck to 30 unique cards really undermines consistency. Moreover, when playing a Reno deck, you don’t get any immediate advantage at the beginning of the game (unless maybe, e.g., you’re playing against aggro and have Reno in your opening hand, but I’d hardly call that an advantage because of deck inconsistency/super fast wild decks can kill you before turn 6), and in fact, you are at a disadvantage because you have 30 unique cards in your deck. Often times you won’t even draw Reno, and playing Reno on curve against a fast deck is hardly a surefire way to win the game.
In contrast, even/odd decks provide an immediate advantage and don’t suffer from the same consistency drawback that Reno decks do. Having access to only even/odd cards certainly limits options, but it doesn’t inherently hurt deck consistency like Reno does. Furthermore, Reno can be played once (unless, of course, you play Zola or etc. but those are additional cards), but the discounted/upgraded hero power that Genn/Baku provides is available on turn one and lasts the entire game, unless you play a hero card or etc.
I know that most people couldn’t care less about Wild, but even/odd decks dominate Wild above rank 5. Even Shaman is incredibly easy to play, and incredibly annoying to play against over and over in Wild—it’s not nearly as good in Standard. Odd Rogue is also very easy to play and probably tied with Even Shaman for (easy and effective) climbing in Wild. Renolock is the only other *consistently* strong deck in Wild right now. Also note that Reno decks aren’t great for climbing fast, so if you want to climb, why play Renolock when you can play Even Shaman or Odd Rogue? I’m not here to argue that Wild is “ruined” because of even/odd, but it is genuinely difficult to imagine what new cards/deck types could possibly displace even/odd decks as the best (easiest to pilot+very consistent+very powerful) options for climbing in Wild—each expansion will provide new cards for both even and odd decks, so without a nerf/change, they’re here for good. As such, it’s difficult to imagine the tier 1/2 meta changing very much, if ever, in Wild.
In sum, comparing even/odd decks to Reno decks is a poor comparison. Reno only fits in slow decks. Even/odd works WELL in fast, midrange, and slow decks. Reno provides no immediate advantage and instead puts you at a disadvantage by ruining consistency. Even/odd provides an immediate advantage without hurting consistency (note also that being unable to run e.g., Sap in Odd Rogue, is not a consistency drawback). Wild meta suffers from the fact that even/odd decks are the best to climb ladder.
No, OP completely misses what is problematic about even/odd decks—i.e., they provide an immediate advantage at the start of each game. Pointing out that there aren’t many “consistent” even/odd decks doesn’t amount to much.
In Reno decks, you sacrifice consistency for the chance to potentially full heal. This trade-off is (more) balanced because limiting your deck to 30 unique cards really undermines consistency. Moreover, when playing a Reno deck, you don’t get any immediate advantage at the beginning of the game (unless maybe, e.g., you’re playing against aggro and have Reno in your opening hand, but I’d hardly call that an advantage because of deck inconsistency/super fast wild decks can kill you before turn 6), and in fact, you are at a disadvantage because you have 30 unique cards in your deck. Often times you won’t even draw Reno, and playing Reno on curve against a fast deck is hardly a surefire way to win the game.
In contrast, even/odd decks provide an immediate advantage and don’t suffer from the same consistency drawback that Reno decks do. Having access to only even/odd cards certainly limits options, but it doesn’t inherently hurt deck consistency like Reno does. Furthermore, Reno can be played once (unless, of course, you play Zola or etc. but those are additional cards), but the discounted/upgraded hero power that Genn/Baku provides is available on turn one and lasts the entire game, unless you play a hero card or etc.
I know that most people couldn’t care less about Wild, but even/odd decks dominate Wild above rank 5. Even Shaman is incredibly easy to play, and incredibly annoying to play against over and over in Wild—it’s not nearly as good in Standard. Odd Rogue is also very easy to play and probably tied with Even Shaman for (easy and effective) climbing in Wild. Renolock is the only other *consistently* strong deck in Wild right now. Also note that Reno decks aren’t great for climbing fast, so if you want to climb, why play Renolock when you can play Even Shaman or Odd Rogue? I’m not here to argue that Wild is “ruined” because of even/odd, but it is genuinely difficult to imagine what new cards/deck types could possibly displace even/odd decks as the best (easiest to pilot+very consistent+very powerful) options for climbing in Wild—each expansion will provide new cards for both even and odd decks, so without a nerf/change, they’re here for good. As such, it’s difficult to imagine the tier 1/2 meta changing very much, if ever, in Wild.
In sum, comparing even/odd decks to Reno decks is a poor comparison. Reno only fits in slow decks. Even/odd works WELL in fast, midrange, and slow decks. Reno provides no immediate advantage and instead puts you at a disadvantage by ruining consistency. Even/odd provides an immediate advantage without hurting consistency (note also that being unable to run e.g., Sap in Odd Rogue, is not a consistency drawback). Wild meta suffers from the fact that even/odd decks are the best to climb ladder.
The point about the Reno design ruining consistency greatly suffers from the fact that as more cards are released (particularly removal) the less that consistency suffers from having one of each removal. The consistency argument made sense when those of who first started using Reno decks back in LoE had significantly fewer spells/minions to remove things (Warlock had Hellfire for their earliest board clear, that's it). Now we have Hellfire AND Defile. For the late game? You had two outs for wide & tall removal in Reno Lock, Nether & Shadowflame plus some big thing). Now? We also have Godfrey. Sure, eventually we will have so much removal that you certainly won't want to include it all, but greatly suffering from not having two nethers hardly matters when you have Godfrey as out as well. As more cards release the easier it will be to mitigate the drawback of a singleton build in wild.
As for your claim that Odd & Even dominate wild in the upper ranks? No, that is not strictly correct. Even Shaman, Even Lock, and Odd Rogue generally dominate the ranks. A few scattered Odd & Even decks dominating ranks is a massive stretch from saying that Odd/Even is a such a busted mechanic that most of the 18 Odd/Even decks are wrecking ladder. Point me in the direction of the magical rank where Even Warrior is a consistent ladder deck. No? Okay, how about Odd Shaman? Even Druid, Odd Druid, Even Hunter, Odd Hunter, Even Rogue, Even Priest, Odd Priest, Odd Warlock, Even Mage? The reality of the matter is that most Odd/Even decks actually never took off as competitive decks in EITHER FORMAT. So saying that Odd/Even is dominating the ladder is reaching significantly and warping the reality of the topic (The exact same thing was done with Reno back in the day, just downscaled to 9 decks instead of 18. Oh no Reno lock has ruined the ladder and is everywhere! The reality? Reno Lock, Reno Mage, & Reno Priest/Reno Dragon Priest were everywhere competitively. Even nowadays a wild Reno Paladin, Reno Druid, & Reno Shaman have failed to appear). Saying Odd/Even is dominating is like trying to say today that Reno decks are dominating everywhere when in reality it just mostly Reno Lock, with some Reno Mage.
In order to keep this post shorter I will just ask this question. If Odd/Even decks are bad design for giving classes a benefit at the start of the game then do you think having them changed would really encourage anybody to play them competitively if they had some staggered effect? My prediction would be a resounding no considering that even with an immediate effect only approximately one third of the total 18 decks even say competitive play in either format, being utterly & completely unused in druid and shaman even with immediate start of turn effects.
Hey! My Even Druid works perfectly fine in Wild! :p Some guy actually carried his own version to legend!
But class rumbles aside, indeed the generalisation over Odd/Even that is applied by so many players has no real proof.
The problem happens just with Odd/Even decks that can abuse cards that were broken before Odd/Even were introduced in the game. Let's just look at Thing from Below, Vilespine Slayer, and probably Devolve and some others. THOSE CARDS are the problem. If you remember, they always were!
Fixing some of them when they were still Standard was the real solution, and the same approach should become a regular policy.
There's no hint in Odd/Even being a problem as archetypes (and my post above argues about the alleged lack of design space). Because otherwise Odd Shaman or Even Priest would be t2 at the very least since longtime.
My issue with Odd/Even decks isn't that build-restrictive decks should not be allowed to be Tier 1. If anything, that criticism only applies to Keleseth because of how discrepantly powerful its decks become when it is played early.
My issue is that, as long as Genn/Baku exist, cards that have the misfortune of being printed with the "wrong" mana cost just lose most hope of seeing play. They cut in half the acceptable cards a class is allowed to play.
"Oh wow, a 6-drop for CW. Nope, wait, only Odd cards can be played in Control Warrior decks now."
"The mage loa, awesome! Wait a sec, the spirit that synergizes with it does not share its odd cost. I guess those two will never see play together..."
That is why I dislike Odds and Evens. They have butchered most of my hype for expansions simply because of how badly they strangled everyone's collection if they want to stay competitive.
can you imagine how OP Odd Mage would be if the spirit could be played in it? There's a reason for that.
Odd and Even isn't any more limiting design-wise than any other hearthstone mechanic.
These two arguments contradict each other.
And yeah, you can play both Loa and spirit, but there's no point because a guaranteed improved Hero Power is a lot better than a "chance" at a synergy. I'm not saying I want odd mage to include the spirit, I'm just saying any card that synergizes with the mage hero power has now been demoted to filler, all thanks to Baku. Unless something more powerful shows up with an even cost and HP synergy, Baku won't leave, and even if she does, Genn will probably take her place.
Also, even if the number of classes that use Odd/Even mechanics is relatively low, that doesn't change how many of them are now stuck to an identity created by their Odd/Even hero power, namely Control Warrior. It's been ages since I've seen a non-Odd CW, because even if 8-mana legendaries, Dead Man's Hand and Blood Razor are nice, none of them can surpass the free, guaranteed power that is an upgraded hero power.
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Spirit of the Dragonhawk would also be useless in a mana-neutral deck, as well as Daring Fire-Eater. Even if they were cheaper in cost (at which point they would be just broken OP on their own btw).
Actually, Genn/Baku are making those cards playable for the first time!
Similarly, on the Warrior side, it's not Odd Warrior being a self-cancer, it is the rest of the class being too weak at Control for the current meta (despite some very good tools).
If it was not for Baku, you'd be accusing the devs, and rightfully so, of not giving Control Warrior decent options for ages!
Spirit of the Dragonhawk would also be useless in a mana-neutral deck, as well as Daring Fire-Eater. Even if they were cheaper in cost (at which point they would be just broken OP on their own btw).
I'm not so sure about that first part. Though that's fair to assume, given most other spirits and their success, we'll never know how the meta would have evolved without Genn/Baku shaping it.
Actually, Genn/Baku are making those cards playable for the first time!
Similarly, on the Warrior side, it's not Odd Warrior being a self-cancer, it is the rest of the class being too weak at Control for the current meta (despite some very good tools).
If it was not for Baku, you'd be accusing the devs, and rightfully so, of not giving Control Warrior decent options for ages!
I... legitimately never thought of it that way. You're right. There are plenty of cards shining thanks to Genn and Baku. When I think of it that way, it actually improves my perspective a lot about those two cards. Damn!
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Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Look at it this way. 1 mana heropowers are a thing so does upgraded heropowers before baku and genn. So there other ways for team5 to release such abilities not just baku and genn;before this there are Justicar and Raza too.
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I've been seeing this a lot lately, people saying odd/even was a bad idea and should be nerfed or HoFed (if we're talking about standard only). Many different positions have been taken to try and provide reasoning for this, but I want to focus on one in particular that I feel is the most illogical and weakest of these (and that I quite frankly can't stomach reading half of the time) and that is that Odd/Even decks are a bad idea based on the premise that 'If you play a deck that restricts what cards you can use then it shouldn't be a strong/consistent/top tier deck.' And if it is a strong deck based on those restrictions then something is wrong. First off, less than half of the total 18 Odd/Even decks even took off as consistent ladder decks, and second, saying that Odd/Even is a problem because it follows synergies that don't always suck makes as much sense as saying aggro was a bad idea for pulling off wins after restricting itself to only cheap cards or control is a problem for pulling off wins for restricting itself to slow reactive cards.
For those HS newbies out there this is pretty much the exact same line of reasoning that was used against Reno decks back in the LoE and post LoE metas as well. This line of thinking is quite facepalm worthy imo. If the decks had no incentive to play them after restricting what you can play (ie through hero power boosts in this case) then the playstyle wouldn't take off outside of casual/meme play. Too often nerf threads/posts discussing this playstyle often want to nerf Genn & Baku because it actually produced *some* decks that work (ie hating on the current strong deck(s) because it beats your [Insert deck you netdecked here]. If you don't believe me that this is the primary reason why people want the playstyle nerfed then allow me to point you in the deck of all of the complaints posts about other non-popular Odd/Even decks that aren't consistent; Even Mage, Even Priest, Odd Priest, Odd Warlock, Even Druid, Odd Druid, Even Rogue (to a lesser extent), Odd Shaman, Even Hunter (again to a lesser extent), and Even Warrior.
So Odd/Even decks should be nerfed because it created roughly 7 out of 18 Odd/Even combinations (in either format I might add) that actually took off? Yep, clearly not a case of hating on [Insert popular deck(s) here].
As i wrote in those threads, Genn/Baku are perfectly ok.
What is problematic is the cards that synergies too easily with a hero power, like Level Up!.
In Wild, there are cards that are broken since their inception, and could only get worse, like Thing from Below.
In conclusion, as long as they are careful with such synergy cards, Genn/Baku will just provide consistent decks, not broken ones.
So basically you are saying Genn/Baku limit design space because Blizz cannot create cards working with hero power.
--Alfi--
Not really.
I am saying that they just have to spread synergy cards like they did with the recent nerf, and avoid making broken cards like TFB.
Genn and Baku are the worst HS idea ever imo. Devs often say that, this or that is limiting design space... and it is bad thing. Well, we could see how Genn and Baku are limiting design space in current meta with Giggling Inventor nerf from 5 to 7. 6 could not happen it would be to good for even decks, sadly this will be the HS case untill Genn and Baku will rotate out.
Where shall I start...
So Genn is limiting design space because an even cost card might make an even deck better & Baku is doing the same except for odd decks? You're kidding right? What's next, aggro is limiting design because it means new powerful cheap stuff can't be released, or control is limiting the game from releasing new powerhouse value engines or removal? A card/deck isn't limiting design space just by the inevitable fact that at some point a new card will eventually make it better. That happens with literally every single card or deck and we know that the game can't invalidate itself by declaring everything as being self-limiting due to old stuff unavoidably getting better with new stuff.
It's easy to bemoan Genn & Baku as being the death knell of HS, but honestly there are still a good number of classes that don't even utilize either card for a competitive deck. Why doesn't druid run Baku? It is because the extra armor still isn't worth sacrificing Branching Paths & UI for. Why doesn't druid run Genn? It is because you lose most of the druid deck win conditions (Hadronnox, Malfurion, Azalina, Malygos, Spiteful Summoner, Naturalize, etc). Should we talk about how Genn/Baku is also so design limiting that priest and hunter also do not run them in any top tier wild or standard decks. How about the reality that the only class that has managed to make a good deck using both Genn and Baku has been paladin (I guess the other 11 Odd/Even decks that are not being used in the meta must be sleepers right?)
Reno didn't end HS with the invention of singleton decks, which have only gotten better, & neither will Baku/Genn for odd/even decks. This should painfully obvious considering that many of the top performing standard decks are variants of hunter (spell, deathrattle/recruit/cube) which do not run Genn or Baku AND prior to the druid nerfs druid was also on top (which surprise surprise did not run even or odd decks at all), but sure odd & even are warping the game so much that they still aren't producing the most consistent tier 1 deck. I guess limiting design space is defined as producing good decks that can't beat the best decks?
I agree. I even remember when Odd/Even mechanic was revealed, lots of people thought it wouldn't go anywhere.
I personally like the mechanic. It does create different deckbuilding options and limitations. The setback of not using any Odd or Even cards is pretty big, so something needs to be received back.
Take Odd Mage, for example. A Controlish version lacks Blizzard, Meteor, Polymorph. Sometimes the hero power gets more done...or can be also a liability. Aggressive Mages loses Frostbolt, Fireball, Aluneth, Pyroblast, Cosmic Anomaly, Primordial Glyph, Kirin Tor Mage, etc. But sometimes the hero power gets it done when the HP keeps the board off-limits for a long period of time and your minions get most of the job done.
Even Paladin really suffers from lack of card draw. Guess what, Divine Favor is odd. Exactly when Call to Arms (pulling Loot Hoarders) was even and Paladin had some absurd deck thinning with it is when the deck was the top deck.
Odd Paladin could flood the board, but if you lost it, you could never go back because you didn't have access to Equality + Pyro/Consec, Tarim, etc.
It would be a problem if every deck was only Odd/Even, but this is far from being true. Those decks share space with no problems with various others non-Odd/Even decks.
Odd Warr, Odd/Even Paladin, Even Shaman, Even Warlock and Odd Rogue were the only standouts. 6 out of 18 possible. The four top decks of Hunter are not Odd/Even. Druids and Priests didn't use either as well.
To me it's not as much a matter of powerlevel as it is a matter of repetitiveness. Every game vs an odd/even deck is the same. You might argue that this is the case against any smorc/early deck and you might be right to a degree but the matter is even worse here. Against any deck, you pretty much expect their plays on early turns but having the turns 2/4/6 and 1/3/5 respectively, not just expected but predetermined exacerbates the issue.
I just don't like how you get so much value out of the hero power. Rogue and paladin are good examples. If rogue goes first and puts a dire mole in play you better get something going on cause the hero power kills every single 2 health minion or you are soon gonna get snowballed to absolute oblivion. Same with paladin. He gets 2 1/1 minions, you kill them and he puts them back and he does that every single turn and you need to kill them all the time cause that 1 turn you wont kill them enough, level up (nerfed yes) corridor creeper and some other minion buff thing happens.
I find genn more fair than baku only because I don't like the fact of having upgraded hero power on turn 2. Do you know what you had to do before? You needed to draw a specific 1 copy of a minion on turn 6 and be able to play it since the tempo loss was huge. There is literally no reason to play justicar anymore and its sad. Maybe some control warrior might run it but odd is just so good.
Me? Gongaga.
Also, about design space, consider this:
Currently in Wild, the top Dude deck is still Odd Paladin, despite the nerf.
Now, if they keep up with wise design, they will never provide another Quartermaster for Odd Paladin in the future. Now, more in the future, let's say they want to add more synergy to Hero Power? If they are still wise, they will make it something similar to the current Level Up!, that is an Even card. There's plenty of design space there, because Even Paladin cannot really abuse the board as Odd Paladin can.
Let's say that at a point in the far future Even Paladin becomes the new way to play Dudeadin, for some reason? They can go back with Odd synergies (or just no hero power synergies at all!).
That process pretty much fixes any lack of design space in Standard, even if Genn/Baku were Classic cards!
And so on and so forth in the far future. The result is that however powerful Even or Odd Paladin will ever be, in Standard or Wild, there will always be a way to select the top notch synergies of both in Wild, sacrificing an efficient hero power in the process, and building a new non-Odd non-Even Dudeadin.
Keep in mind that before Odd was a thing, one of the top dogs in Wild was a mana-neutral Dudeadin: Dudeadin was already a thing. And I would argue that with the nerf to Level Up!, a new non-Odd Dudeadin should return in Wild meta, sooner or later.
Similar decks maybe, but none of them will devour the others forever. One of them will be slightly better at a given time, bested by another soon after.
Design space fixed in both Standard and Wild.
My issue with Odd/Even decks isn't that build-restrictive decks should not be allowed to be Tier 1. If anything, that criticism only applies to Keleseth because of how discrepantly powerful its decks become when it is played early.
My issue is that, as long as Genn/Baku exist, cards that have the misfortune of being printed with the "wrong" mana cost just lose most hope of seeing play. They cut in half the acceptable cards a class is allowed to play.
"Oh wow, a 6-drop for CW. Nope, wait, only Odd cards can be played in Control Warrior decks now."
"The mage loa, awesome! Wait a sec, the spirit that synergizes with it does not share its odd cost. I guess those two will never see play together..."
That is why I dislike Odds and Evens. They have butchered most of my hype for expansions simply because of how badly they strangled everyone's collection if they want to stay competitive.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
can you imagine how OP Odd Mage would be if the spirit could be played in it? There's a reason for that. As for your statement, they can be played together, just not with Baku.
Odd and Even isn't any more limiting design-wise than any other hearthstone mechanic. I don't even get how you say they've strangled everyone's collection. Of all of the Tier 1 and 2 decks, there's only 4 classes using the mechanic for a whopping total of 6 decks out of 16 decks. If you expand that to Tier 3 that brings the count to 5 classes and 7 of 27 decks. The power levels of these decks isn't super high to the point of being design limiting. Seems like everyone's collection is just fine with plenty of options
If "limiting design space" was a real problem, we wouldn't have seen Spirit of the Dragonhawk printed. Like, at all. Or with an unplayable mana cost.
Instead, they printed it as Even cost, and efficient as well, because it was ok there.
The only criticism with real implications is that of Jaina, about predictable turns or plays. But that is not a critical problem afterall, IF meta is/was balanced and varied enough. I mean, all decks feel repetitive after they crystallize in Wild for a long time...
No, OP completely misses what is problematic about even/odd decks—i.e., they provide an immediate advantage at the start of each game. Pointing out that there aren’t many “consistent” even/odd decks doesn’t amount to much.
In Reno decks, you sacrifice consistency for the chance to potentially full heal. This trade-off is (more) balanced because limiting your deck to 30 unique cards really undermines consistency. Moreover, when playing a Reno deck, you don’t get any immediate advantage at the beginning of the game (unless maybe, e.g., you’re playing against aggro and have Reno in your opening hand, but I’d hardly call that an advantage because of deck inconsistency/super fast wild decks can kill you before turn 6), and in fact, you are at a disadvantage because you have 30 unique cards in your deck. Often times you won’t even draw Reno, and playing Reno on curve against a fast deck is hardly a surefire way to win the game.
In contrast, even/odd decks provide an immediate advantage and don’t suffer from the same consistency drawback that Reno decks do. Having access to only even/odd cards certainly limits options, but it doesn’t inherently hurt deck consistency like Reno does. Furthermore, Reno can be played once (unless, of course, you play Zola or etc. but those are additional cards), but the discounted/upgraded hero power that Genn/Baku provides is available on turn one and lasts the entire game, unless you play a hero card or etc.
I know that most people couldn’t care less about Wild, but even/odd decks dominate Wild above rank 5. Even Shaman is incredibly easy to play, and incredibly annoying to play against over and over in Wild—it’s not nearly as good in Standard. Odd Rogue is also very easy to play and probably tied with Even Shaman for (easy and effective) climbing in Wild. Renolock is the only other *consistently* strong deck in Wild right now. Also note that Reno decks aren’t great for climbing fast, so if you want to climb, why play Renolock when you can play Even Shaman or Odd Rogue? I’m not here to argue that Wild is “ruined” because of even/odd, but it is genuinely difficult to imagine what new cards/deck types could possibly displace even/odd decks as the best (easiest to pilot+very consistent+very powerful) options for climbing in Wild—each expansion will provide new cards for both even and odd decks, so without a nerf/change, they’re here for good. As such, it’s difficult to imagine the tier 1/2 meta changing very much, if ever, in Wild.
In sum, comparing even/odd decks to Reno decks is a poor comparison. Reno only fits in slow decks. Even/odd works WELL in fast, midrange, and slow decks. Reno provides no immediate advantage and instead puts you at a disadvantage by ruining consistency. Even/odd provides an immediate advantage without hurting consistency (note also that being unable to run e.g., Sap in Odd Rogue, is not a consistency drawback). Wild meta suffers from the fact that even/odd decks are the best to climb ladder.
The point about the Reno design ruining consistency greatly suffers from the fact that as more cards are released (particularly removal) the less that consistency suffers from having one of each removal. The consistency argument made sense when those of who first started using Reno decks back in LoE had significantly fewer spells/minions to remove things (Warlock had Hellfire for their earliest board clear, that's it). Now we have Hellfire AND Defile. For the late game? You had two outs for wide & tall removal in Reno Lock, Nether & Shadowflame plus some big thing). Now? We also have Godfrey. Sure, eventually we will have so much removal that you certainly won't want to include it all, but greatly suffering from not having two nethers hardly matters when you have Godfrey as out as well. As more cards release the easier it will be to mitigate the drawback of a singleton build in wild.
As for your claim that Odd & Even dominate wild in the upper ranks? No, that is not strictly correct. Even Shaman, Even Lock, and Odd Rogue generally dominate the ranks. A few scattered Odd & Even decks dominating ranks is a massive stretch from saying that Odd/Even is a such a busted mechanic that most of the 18 Odd/Even decks are wrecking ladder. Point me in the direction of the magical rank where Even Warrior is a consistent ladder deck. No? Okay, how about Odd Shaman? Even Druid, Odd Druid, Even Hunter, Odd Hunter, Even Rogue, Even Priest, Odd Priest, Odd Warlock, Even Mage? The reality of the matter is that most Odd/Even decks actually never took off as competitive decks in EITHER FORMAT. So saying that Odd/Even is dominating the ladder is reaching significantly and warping the reality of the topic (The exact same thing was done with Reno back in the day, just downscaled to 9 decks instead of 18. Oh no Reno lock has ruined the ladder and is everywhere! The reality? Reno Lock, Reno Mage, & Reno Priest/Reno Dragon Priest were everywhere competitively. Even nowadays a wild Reno Paladin, Reno Druid, & Reno Shaman have failed to appear). Saying Odd/Even is dominating is like trying to say today that Reno decks are dominating everywhere when in reality it just mostly Reno Lock, with some Reno Mage.
In order to keep this post shorter I will just ask this question. If Odd/Even decks are bad design for giving classes a benefit at the start of the game then do you think having them changed would really encourage anybody to play them competitively if they had some staggered effect? My prediction would be a resounding no considering that even with an immediate effect only approximately one third of the total 18 decks even say competitive play in either format, being utterly & completely unused in druid and shaman even with immediate start of turn effects.
Hey! My Even Druid works perfectly fine in Wild! :p Some guy actually carried his own version to legend!
But class rumbles aside, indeed the generalisation over Odd/Even that is applied by so many players has no real proof.
The problem happens just with Odd/Even decks that can abuse cards that were broken before Odd/Even were introduced in the game. Let's just look at Thing from Below, Vilespine Slayer, and probably Devolve and some others. THOSE CARDS are the problem. If you remember, they always were!
Fixing some of them when they were still Standard was the real solution, and the same approach should become a regular policy.
There's no hint in Odd/Even being a problem as archetypes (and my post above argues about the alleged lack of design space). Because otherwise Odd Shaman or Even Priest would be t2 at the very least since longtime.
These two arguments contradict each other.
And yeah, you can play both Loa and spirit, but there's no point because a guaranteed improved Hero Power is a lot better than a "chance" at a synergy. I'm not saying I want odd mage to include the spirit, I'm just saying any card that synergizes with the mage hero power has now been demoted to filler, all thanks to Baku. Unless something more powerful shows up with an even cost and HP synergy, Baku won't leave, and even if she does, Genn will probably take her place.
Also, even if the number of classes that use Odd/Even mechanics is relatively low, that doesn't change how many of them are now stuck to an identity created by their Odd/Even hero power, namely Control Warrior. It's been ages since I've seen a non-Odd CW, because even if 8-mana legendaries, Dead Man's Hand and Blood Razor are nice, none of them can surpass the free, guaranteed power that is an upgraded hero power.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
All Mage Hero Power cards have always been fillers. Much before Genn/Baku. Fallen Hero, Coldarra Drake, Ice Walker, etc.
Spirit of the Dragonhawk would also be useless in a mana-neutral deck, as well as Daring Fire-Eater. Even if they were cheaper in cost (at which point they would be just broken OP on their own btw).
Actually, Genn/Baku are making those cards playable for the first time!
Similarly, on the Warrior side, it's not Odd Warrior being a self-cancer, it is the rest of the class being too weak at Control for the current meta (despite some very good tools).
If it was not for Baku, you'd be accusing the devs, and rightfully so, of not giving Control Warrior decent options for ages!
Those will remain filler though, simply because they don't share Baku's Odd requirements.
I'm not so sure about that first part. Though that's fair to assume, given most other spirits and their success, we'll never know how the meta would have evolved without Genn/Baku shaping it.
I... legitimately never thought of it that way. You're right. There are plenty of cards shining thanks to Genn and Baku. When I think of it that way, it actually improves my perspective a lot about those two cards. Damn!
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
Look at it this way. 1 mana heropowers are a thing so does upgraded heropowers before baku and genn. So there other ways for team5 to release such abilities not just baku and genn;before this there are Justicar and Raza too.