thats why im asking, ive not seen any price yet for them.. and when i clicked on a quest here on hearthpwn it says cost 0/0 dust.. so either they dont know too or they did already know it costs 0... :)
@CO1933; I think the Jade "problem" is overblown. Right now it's marginally decent, but if you look at vS it's not really in a very dominant position from a winrate perspective. The tools we need are literally just viable decks with viable proactive plans, and I doubt those are going anywhere. Trying to solve Jade with a heavy-handed tech card like Golakka Crawler isn't necessary, simply because they're giving Zoolock support and that's never good news for Druid.
I think the meta is going to definitely slow down though, mainly because I don't think the all-in Pirate Warrior lists are going to be as good. There's still going to be Aggro, and you're still going to have decks that want to kill you quickly, but I think it's going to move back to the range of getting murdered by turns 7-8 instead of 5-6; to me that's actually an okay speed, but to other people maybe that's still too fast.
Personally I never take factual credit from winrates, but I see what you mean. I wasn't trying to overglorify Jade Druid or any of the other Jade decks as being broken, I was just highlighting the ways they affected the meta. And yeah, faster decks with a touch of Midrange to them like the new Discolock are going to be strong against Jade Druid-like what I often see from Dragon Priests who play it right. Of course, Dragon Priest is going to take a massive hit after this rotation, but you get what I mean.
I think that's fair! vS is super useful for looking at things objectively (like common matchups), but I'm in the camp that thinks it's data that should be taken with a grain of salt.
And I think we're both in agreement on Jade not being broken, and my apologies if it seemed like that's how I took it. The idea that Jade is some kind of broken OP monstrosity that will clearly dominate metas until it rotates is absurd, but a lot of people on this forum seem to approach the meta with that mindset and so that probably tempers my reaction more than it should. Seeing stuff like the Warlock and Shaman cards they've shown so far lead me to believe that it really shouldn't be an issue, and it seems like Priest is at least getting the bones to have a reasonable replacement for Dragons after rotation with the Deathrattle theme.
With Kazakus and Dragon Priest being mostly dead (both could still live on, but the Priest lists that use them would have to be played differently and I think they'd be inconsistent) we'll have a lot more breathing room for the older styles of Control lists that want to play a slower game. I don't think we're ever going to go back to Tank Up + Elise Control Warrior era lists, but you can build a slow list in Warrior without having to fatigue someone out (like N'Zoth/C'Thun Warrior). Yes Jade Druid will beat them handily, but Jade Druid also loses to almost everything else and will still remain a horrible choice for ladder being slow AND weak to the most popular archetypes.
Anyone who thinks Aggro/Midrange is going to cease being the dominant archetype should probably accept we're never going to have a Control meta. Metas where Control has great decks is a fine place to set the bar, and people are better off focusing on that than on a world where Control is ever the most popular list to ladder with.
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@CO1933; I think the Jade "problem" is overblown. Right now it's marginally decent, but if you look at vS it's not really in a very dominant position from a winrate perspective. The tools we need are literally just viable decks with viable proactive plans, and I doubt those are going anywhere. Trying to solve Jade with a heavy-handed tech card like Golakka Crawler isn't necessary, simply because they're giving Zoolock support and that's never good news for Druid.
I think the meta is going to definitely slow down though, mainly because I don't think the all-in Pirate Warrior lists are going to be as good. There's still going to be Aggro, and you're still going to have decks that want to kill you quickly, but I think it's going to move back to the range of getting murdered by turns 7-8 instead of 5-6; to me that's actually an okay speed, but to other people maybe that's still too fast.
Personally I never take factual credit from winrates, but I see what you mean. I wasn't trying to overglorify Jade Druid or any of the other Jade decks as being broken, I was just highlighting the ways they affected the meta. And yeah, faster decks with a touch of Midrange to them like the new Discolock are going to be strong against Jade Druid-like what I often see from Dragon Priests who play it right. Of course, Dragon Priest is going to take a massive hit after this rotation, but you get what I mean.
I think that's fair! vS is super useful for looking at things objectively (like common matchups), but I'm in the camp that thinks it's data that should be taken with a grain of salt.
And I think we're both in agreement on Jade not being broken, and my apologies if it seemed like that's how I took it. The idea that Jade is some kind of broken OP monstrosity that will clearly dominate metas until it rotates is absurd, but a lot of people on this forum seem to approach the meta with that mindset and so that probably tempers my reaction more than it should. Seeing stuff like the Warlock and Shaman cards they've shown so far lead me to believe that it really shouldn't be an issue, and it seems like Priest is at least getting the bones to have a reasonable replacement for Dragons after rotation with the Deathrattle theme.
With Kazakus and Dragon Priest being mostly dead (both could still live on, but the Priest lists that use them would have to be played differently and I think they'd be inconsistent) we'll have a lot more breathing room for the older styles of Control lists that want to play a slower game. I don't think we're ever going to go back to Tank Up + Elise Control Warrior era lists, but you can build a slow list in Warrior without having to fatigue someone out (like N'Zoth/C'Thun Warrior). Yes Jade Druid will beat them handily, but Jade Druid also loses to almost everything else and will still remain a horrible choice for ladder being slow AND weak to the most popular archetypes.
Anyone who thinks Aggro/Midrange is going to cease being the dominant archetype should probably accept we're never going to have a Control meta. Metas where Control has great decks is a fine place to set the bar, and people are better off focusing on that than on a world where Control is ever the most popular list to ladder with.
Don't worry, I get you man. I knew you weren't throwing salt at my face, you had reasonable evidence in your post and a cool head in every line of it. What I personally see as the future of Priest is some kind of Control deck that incorporates the no-duplicates mechanic of Raza and Kazakus while using N'Zoth at the same time (I really wouldn't be surprised if the new Priest legendary worked along the lines of Reno or something like that). If Warrior gets a different kind of Control deck, it would definitely incorporate the new Elise and maybe even Explore Un'Goro, but we can't truly predict what's going to happen with Warrior after Un'Goro no matter how salty we may be with the Pirates. And when it comes down to whatever meta we're going to end up with, I just hope that the worst thing we'll get is a Midrange meta not dominated by one single deck (if one archetype has to rule the meta, I'd most prefer it be Midrange).
No meta has no aggro. But aggro dominates Hearthstone to a degree that is unheard of in serious, competitive games.
Jade also killed every other Control deck, meaning aggro has favorable matchups against midrange, combo, and control, since Jade is the only serious control deck and it takes off around turn 5, which is when Pirate Warrior kills you.
Jade didn't kill control, it changed how control plays. Pirate Warrior didn't kill other aggro decks, and in Un'Goro, people will still play non Jade Druid control decks, as long as their win condition isn't fatigue or if Jade Druid isn't a dominant deck in the meta. Don't be such a pessimist.
No, it actually killed Control. The decks that are called "Control" these days, like Dragon Priest, are actually midrange. Pirate Warrior didn't kill other aggro decks because aggro is Hearthstone's favored archetype, so there are many good options (of which PW is the most efficient currently).
People have this misconception that Control started to go the Fatigue route because it wanted to. Control started to go Fatigue because aggro was so strong that Control's entire deck needed to be answers to not effectively lose on turn 5-6.
I think you are mistaken. Dragon Priest was never and is not now referred to as a control deck. It's just that when one player is clearly the aggressor, the other must by default play the control role until they regain the board. Jade Druid didn't kill control (if it did, why is Renolock tier 1 and not Jade Druid?)
1. Reno Lock is not tier 1 its been Tier 2 for around 3 weeks now.
2. Jade druid isnt Tier One because there are far Better "Consistent Deck" Aka Pirate Warrior Rogue and Id say Mid Shayman
3. Jade Druid didnt really Kill Control Per Say? It rather Punishes control without a Win Condition.
Although, As someone said Prior Aggro is soooooo Dominant that everyone has to tech for Fatigue if they wish to survive and Have all the answers and removals to take over. Which is why Jade Druid Is just the Laughing stock that can abuse that. And dominate in ways noone enjoys.
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people here are overrating taunts. Without a decent neutral burst heal control will never have a chance in this game. good burstheal like reno is the only way to realy counter aggro, there are way to many ways to just bypass taunt and finish you of.
The only good thing is tunnel trogg is rotating out which basically forced every meta deck to have 3 damage turn 1-2. So aslong blizz doesnt bring another must remove 1 mana minion with fu***** 3 health meta should at least be not hyper fast.
You know it is bad now when aggro is rearing it's ugly head in WILD!!!!!!!!!!!
Wild is so frustrating right now. Sludge belcher cant's stop aggro, perfect anti-aggro draws from renolock can't stop aggro, raptor rogue (which is a sort of anti-face aggro deck) can't stop aggro. Your choices are aggro, some aggro-counter priest variants, or prayer. Egg druid used to be the only aggro game in town - now pirate warrior is dumbing down everything but priest.
I think the devs need to come up with a hard playable aggro counter - a weapon steal that adds +1 durability to the ORIGINAL weapon, or mechanics that punish your opponent for playing cards to fast or a card that punishes you somehow if don't have more than x number of cards with a mana cost of 6 or higher.
I hate when all the matches goto fatigue but it is nice to be able to go toe to toe with aggro until at least turn 10 when you play midrange. MIdrange is supposed to give aggro at least a little run for the money - not just get steamrolled by turn 6. ESPECIALLY WHEN I GET A NEAR PERFECT DRAW/CURVE!!!
people here are overrating taunts. Without a decent neutral burst heal control will never have a chance in this game. good burstheal like reno is the only way to realy counter aggro, there are way to many ways to just bypass taunt and finish you of.
The only good thing is tunnel trogg is rotating out which basically forced every meta deck to have 3 damage turn 1-2. So aslong blizz doesnt bring another must remove 1 mana minion with fu***** 3 health meta should at least be not hyper fast.
Every class shouldn't be able to tech/beat Aggro purely with healing, and I'd argue keeping some like Rogue weak to Aggro is perfectly fine considering Rogue is actually very strong against Control generally. They haven't stopped printing recovery tools, they just stopped making them accessible to everyone, and you only need a few classes that reliably counter Aggro to keep it in check.
Priest/Warrior have always been great anti-Aggro, and Paladin has no shortage of heals. Druid/Shaman/Mage also have a lot of tools at their disposal for fighting Aggro, including heals and armor. Hunter and Rogues typically aren't thought of as healing classes, and Rogue is a glass cannon which taunts really don't make sense for. Warlocks hurt themselves for a gain in power, so adding a large amount of healing is just a poor idea.
Healbot and Reno are good things to have die, and I will not miss them when they rotate. I'd much rather see interesting tools printed than more cards that essentially say "draw this and win against Aggro". Refreshment Vendor and Cult Apothecary for example are great, as is Mistress of Mixtures and Tar Creeper; those are what nuetral heals should look like, and those are the tools I think are healthy to give everyone access to.
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Don't worry, I get you man. I knew you weren't throwing salt at my face, you had reasonable evidence in your post and a cool head in every line of it. What I personally see as the future of Priest is some kind of Control deck that incorporates the no-duplicates mechanic of Raza and Kazakus while using N'Zoth at the same time (I really wouldn't be surprised if the new Priest legendary worked along the lines of Reno or something like that). If Warrior gets a different kind of Control deck, it would definitely incorporate the new Elise and maybe even Explore Un'Goro, but we can't truly predict what's going to happen with Warrior after Un'Goro no matter how salty we may be with the Pirates. And when it comes down to whatever meta we're going to end up with, I just hope that the worst thing we'll get is a Midrange meta not dominated by one single deck (if one archetype has to rule the meta, I'd most prefer it be Midrange).
I think they mentioned that there aren't any Reno-like mechanics this expansion per se, but I do think a Priest running singletons is going to be feasible. That new spell is a big deal for adding redundancy and consistency, and stuff like Greater Healing Potion is probably enough for burst healing against Aggro. I do wonder if there are going to be enough Deathrattles to really make that archetype work with one-ofs, but I think it's a list I'm certainly going to be testing for sure.
Control Warrior loses Bash and Justicar, but keeps most of the bones for a Control list; I think it'll still be pretty good if your goal is to counter Aggro/Midrange, even without seeing many of the new cards. I think the new Elise is going to be great in most Control lists honestly, and maybe some slower Midrange lists; I can definitely see it making its way into Control Warrior since it could feasibly get a lot of use out of it.
Personally I'd rather have Aggro rule a meta than Midrange, but I do think it's better to have games that went as long as they did in Old Gods than it is to have them be as short as they can be in MSoG. I'd be happy with Midrange being top dog as long as it resembles that meta, since Aggro and Control were still at least decent and you could experiment a lot with them; as a Priest player Midrange always felt worse to play against than Aggro, so I'm definitely biased. :P
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You know it is bad now when aggro is rearing it's ugly head in WILD!!!!!!!!!!!
Wild is so frustrating right now. Sludge belcher cant's stop aggro, perfect anti-aggro draws from renolock can't stop aggro, raptor rogue (which is a sort of anti-face aggro deck) can't stop aggro. Your choices are aggro, some aggro-counter priest variants, or prayer. Egg druid used to be the only aggro game in town - now pirate warrior is dumbing down everything but priest.
I think the devs need to come up with a hard playable aggro counter - a weapon steal that adds +1 durability to the ORIGINAL weapon, or mechanics that punish your opponent for playing cards to fast or a card that punishes you somehow if don't have more than x number of cards with a mana cost of 6 or higher.
I hate when all the matches goto fatigue but it is nice to be able to go toe to toe with aggro until at least turn 10 when you play midrange. MIdrange is supposed to give aggro at least a little run for the money - not just get steamrolled by turn 6. ESPECIALLY WHEN I GET A NEAR PERFECT DRAW/CURVE!!!
As a fellow Wild player, I think you're overblowing the problem a little bit. Perhaps it's just because I'm at lower ranks (7-8 ish), but I've got at least a 60%+ winrate with my Midrange Paladin deck (a variation on the one in my signature) against Pirate Warrior. I agree Cannon Warrior is obnoxious, but in Wild there are certainly the tools to deal with it. I mean, I'm doing well enough without Forbidden Healing, Reno, or Antique Healbot... If I subbed those in it seems like Pirate Warrior wouldn't stand a chance.
Today in my free brawl pack I got Barongeddon, then I had a cup of fresh green tea. As a result of that, I think Priest is OP because my keyboard is not a mechanical one. I hope Blizzard will address this issue.
You know it is bad now when aggro is rearing it's ugly head in WILD!!!!!!!!!!!
Wild is so frustrating right now. Sludge belcher cant's stop aggro, perfect anti-aggro draws from renolock can't stop aggro, raptor rogue (which is a sort of anti-face aggro deck) can't stop aggro. Your choices are aggro, some aggro-counter priest variants, or prayer. Egg druid used to be the only aggro game in town - now pirate warrior is dumbing down everything but priest.
I think the devs need to come up with a hard playable aggro counter - a weapon steal that adds +1 durability to the ORIGINAL weapon, or mechanics that punish your opponent for playing cards to fast or a card that punishes you somehow if don't have more than x number of cards with a mana cost of 6 or higher.
I hate when all the matches goto fatigue but it is nice to be able to go toe to toe with aggro until at least turn 10 when you play midrange. MIdrange is supposed to give aggro at least a little run for the money - not just get steamrolled by turn 6. ESPECIALLY WHEN I GET A NEAR PERFECT DRAW/CURVE!!!
As a fellow Wild player, I think you're overblowing the problem a little bit. Perhaps it's just because I'm at lower ranks (7-8 ish), but I've got at least a 60%+ winrate with my Midrange Paladin deck (a variation on the one in my signature) against Pirate Warrior. I agree Cannon Warrior is obnoxious, but in Wild there are certainly the tools to deal with it. I mean, I'm doing well enough without Forbidden Healing, Reno, or Antique Healbot... If I subbed those in it seems like Pirate Warrior wouldn't stand a chance.
I have seen and heard it said that between ranks 5-2 is where pirate warrior is worst. I too played various midrange paladins to get to 5, but beyond 5 it is maybe 70% pirate warrior. There is a midrange shaman deck there and even other warrior decks that I have never seen before that are targetted specifically to beat pirates, but honestly - it is pirates as far as the eye can see.
thats why im asking, ive not seen any price yet for them.. and when i clicked on a quest here on hearthpwn it says cost 0/0 dust.. so either they dont know too or they did already know it costs 0... :)
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No, it never happen. Control decks are extinct while Jade Golen is a thing.
My magic will tear you apart!
-Those who do not understand true pain, can never understand true peace.-
Hearthstone will never slow down :p
"Everyone tech's for fatigue because of aggro" wtf? If you survive the first 6 turns, chances are you won.
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"Everyone tech's for fatigue because of aggro" wtf? If you survive the first 6 turns, chances are you won.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
Join me at Out of Cards!
people here are overrating taunts. Without a decent neutral burst heal control will never have a chance in this game. good burstheal like reno is the only way to realy counter aggro, there are way to many ways to just bypass taunt and finish you of.
The only good thing is tunnel trogg is rotating out which basically forced every meta deck to have 3 damage turn 1-2. So aslong blizz doesnt bring another must remove 1 mana minion with fu***** 3 health meta should at least be not hyper fast.
You know it is bad now when aggro is rearing it's ugly head in WILD!!!!!!!!!!!
Wild is so frustrating right now. Sludge belcher cant's stop aggro, perfect anti-aggro draws from renolock can't stop aggro, raptor rogue (which is a sort of anti-face aggro deck) can't stop aggro. Your choices are aggro, some aggro-counter priest variants, or prayer. Egg druid used to be the only aggro game in town - now pirate warrior is dumbing down everything but priest.
I think the devs need to come up with a hard playable aggro counter - a weapon steal that adds +1 durability to the ORIGINAL weapon, or mechanics that punish your opponent for playing cards to fast or a card that punishes you somehow if don't have more than x number of cards with a mana cost of 6 or higher.
I hate when all the matches goto fatigue but it is nice to be able to go toe to toe with aggro until at least turn 10 when you play midrange. MIdrange is supposed to give aggro at least a little run for the money - not just get steamrolled by turn 6. ESPECIALLY WHEN I GET A NEAR PERFECT DRAW/CURVE!!!
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
Articles I suggest every player reads to improve at the game;
MTG/Hearthstone biases to avoid
Reframing negative Hearthstone experiences to improve at the game
Who's the Beatdown?
With the new hunter quest, maybe not lolz. atleast you dont die on turn 5 anymore
#gNOmeferatu
I wont play if it becomes a Murloc meta, that's for sure.