Heartstone is a e sport because it's mostly skill and deck making
50% Skill
25% Deck making
25% RNG
If it was more rng wise, every tournament would see other players
nope it wouldnt since they only invite famous player with a large viewer base and a specific personality. Most of them even only bring cancer and nothing they created themselves. You see tons of missplays from the pseudo "pro-scene" in every tournement its pathetic.
Not all tournaments are invitational only. In fact many have spots open for anyone that can qualify. So if its all about luck, then why don't we see random no-names win tournaments all the time!
Random no-names DO win tournaments consistently. If I recall correctly, some random Chinese player won ESL with a Mech Shaman deck not too long ago. And that's not the only occurrence; there's multiple examples of so-called "pros" losing to random no-names, who then go on to win the tournament. I'm not saying Hearthstone doesn't have a place in e-sports, though, that'll be a thing as long as there's an audience for it.
Some people here are obviously not speaking from experience and are not (all that bright) quick to catch on to what really goes on in the Hearthstone Legend scene specifically. The only thing that matters in terms of ranking in Hearthstone is your Legend ranking at the END of the season, which people start working towards 2-3 days before the end of the season, and even 3 days is a bit overkill. Perennial legend players achieve Legend ranking quickly within the start of the season and then just mess around until the 2-3 day point, staying in touch with the meta. Making comments about streamers being on stream for 5~ hours a day is completely off base, as there are plenty of pros who don't stream, and plenty of streamers who are just in it for the money and get to Legend simply because they do play so much, but those are not the people we are speaking about here. So, the actual time investment consists of the time spent getting Legend, which is minimal for true pros, and the time spent those 2-3 days at the end of the season, which is, as you should have guessed by this point. also quite small. Hopefully this clarifies that misconception. I will not speak on the tournaments, it is obvious to see what is going on there from a "profit business" perspective.
People keep saying that there is no skill involved, yet everyone in my friend's list ends up about the same rank at the end of the season every season. If there was no skill involved then there should be a lot more inconsistencies. Every card game has a fair amount of luck built into it, but they all also have a fair amount of skill involved too. Every time you have to make a choice there is skill involved with making the right choice, and over the course of a full tournament match there are a whole lot of choices to be made.
Heartstone is a e sport because it's mostly skill and deck making
50% Skill
25% Deck making
25% RNG
If it was more rng wise, every tournament would see other players
nope it wouldnt since they only invite famous player with a large viewer base and a specific personality. Most of them even only bring cancer and nothing they created themselves. You see tons of missplays from the pseudo "pro-scene" in every tournement its pathetic.
Not all tournaments are invitational only. In fact many have spots open for anyone that can qualify. So if its all about luck, then why don't we see random no-names win tournaments all the time!
Random no-names DO win tournaments consistently. If I recall correctly, some random Chinese player won ESL with a Mech Shaman deck not too long ago. And that's not the only occurrence; there's multiple examples of so-called "pros" losing to random no-names, who then go on to win the tournament. I'm not saying Hearthstone doesn't have a place in e-sports, though, that'll be a thing as long as there's an audience for it.
1. He's Vietnamese and lives in New York City
2. He made it to legend rank almost every month for half a year before ESL
3. The only reason he was a "no-name" is because he didn't stream until after he won the tournament
Random no-names DO win tournaments consistently. If I recall correctly, some random Chinese player won ESL with a Mech Shaman deck not too long ago. And that's not the only occurrence; there's multiple examples of so-called "pros" losing to random no-names, who then go on to win the tournament. I'm not saying Hearthstone doesn't have a place in e-sports, though, that'll be a thing as long as there's an audience for it.
My question is, are these unknown players unknown because they are bad, or just because they haven't been discovered yet? Back when I played Yugioh there would be people I'd never heard of win some of the biggest tournaments of the year. It wasn't because they were lucky, it was because they were good and hadn't found their moment to shine yet. They would go on to win/place in many more tournaments after that. Hearthstone is still a young game, I'm sure many of the best players that this game will ever see haven't been discovered yet.
There are also a lot of people who don't want to be in the spotlight. They are just winning these tournaments and try to stay "Undercover". Not everyone wants to be seen on Twitch or stuff like that.
Heartstone is a e sport because it's mostly skill and deck making
50% Skill
25% Deck making
25% RNG
If it was more rng wise, every tournament would see other players
nope it wouldnt since they only invite famous player with a large viewer base and a specific personality. Most of them even only bring cancer and nothing they created themselves. You see tons of missplays from the pseudo "pro-scene" in every tournement its pathetic.
Not all tournaments are invitational only. In fact many have spots open for anyone that can qualify. So if its all about luck, then why don't we see random no-names win tournaments all the time!
U see them there was an asian guy that won a tournement his name was something with N that just started at hearthstone.
If you idiots rly think its skill then you basicially insult yourselves.
Why? Because that would mean you guys are too bad for facehunter and Eboladin and only "Pros" can play this deck.
Seriously wake up! Everyone here could win a tournement with facehunter if he gets the chance to it. Do you rly think when a famous name win with facehunter it has something to do with skill? Rly wake up
Well, he could have a genius IQ and consequently, a very high learning curve which would allow him to learn the game quickly and outperfom his opponents simply because he is more intelligent and can make better plays. He also could have played card games his whole life, so the idea and concepts of Hearthstone were nothing new to him. But I doubt you considered those possibilities, perhaps you lack the capability to do so. Also, he only won once according to you, which means nothing. Repeat success by someone with no knowledge of the game would count for something, otherwise it is just luck or variance or whatever you want to call it. Also, some aggro does get god hands and the game is already decided at that point, but that is not a guarantee by any means, yet again luck, variance, etc. Of course the tournament scene is not great with all the famous name / invited players, but it is obvious why that happens. Lastly, nice job calling people idiots with your grammar in the state it is in. I had to deeply consider whether or not to even bother responding, and I certainly won't again. Good day.
Some people here are obviously not speaking from experience and are not (all that bright) quick to catch on to what really goes on in the Hearthstone Legend scene specifically. The only thing that matters in terms of ranking in Hearthstone is your Legend ranking at the END of the season, which people start working towards 2-3 days before the end of the season, and even 3 days is a bit overkill. Perennial legend players achieve Legend ranking quickly within the start of the season and then just mess around until the 2-3 day point, staying in touch with the meta. Making comments about streamers being on stream for 5~ hours a day is completely off base, as there are plenty of pros who don't stream, and plenty of streamers who are just in it for the money and get to Legend simply because they do play so much, but those are not the people we are speaking about here. So, the actual time investment consists of the time spent getting Legend, which is minimal for true pros, and the time spent those 2-3 days at the end of the season, which is, as you should have guessed by this point. also quite small. Hopefully this clarifies that misconception. I will not speak on the tournaments, it is obvious to see what is going on there from a "profit business" perspective.
Thanks for insulting my intelligence. Even your forum buddies agree with me in that the Hearthstone pro scene shouldn't be taken seriously. I never said it shouldn't exist; it definitely should, seeing as there's an audience for it.
Anyway, first off the bat:
- Trump finished ~1500 legend in June, despite toiling for weeks on end to raise it.
- Forsen finished ~2000 legend in June and ~1000 sometime around April.
- Zetalot finished ~700 in July.
These are just a few examples. And it takes most pro players ~10 days to get to legend, if not more. That's 30-50 hours. Most streamers don't "try" for only the last 2-3 days; that mentality ceases to function when every other person in legend is doing the same the same thing. Most pros start "trying" in the last week or so. That's 85 hours, at the minimum. Add more time for the pros who don't make legend within the first ten days, which is the majority of them, and the number can easily reach ~100 hours at the minimum. Anyway, exact numbers weren't the point of my comment. My point was that, given enough time, ANYONE can make it to legend, with their ranking thereafter being based almost completely on RNG.
To close, the reason you refuse to discuss the tournament scene is becuase it's a clear representation of RNG's dominance over Hearthstone.
e-sports is stupid to begin with but the real question is who wants to play in a tourney where skill is second to RNG in deciding who wins and who doesnt. if you watch the facial expressions of the streamers at tourneys not one of them wants to be there. the last one i watch the second finalist lost to a zoo deck. when he lost he smirked. it was priceless.
if HS and e-sports were a legitimate competition the losers wouldnt be suppressing laughter after they get slaughtered by T8. also if it was a legitimate competition they wouldnt have to pay half the competitors to be there.
all e-sports are is good advertising for video games. anyone who says different are the ones being advertised to.
A) Pokers first random element is the deck being shuffled.
B) Pokers second random element is the card being dealt out to each player and the cards those players draw.
C) Pokers third random element is other people with how they bluff and how much they bet.
Where as in comparison:
A) Hearthstone has from the starting gate, all three of the points from poker points I made. (How the deck is shuffled, how the hand is dealt, against other humans)
Heartstone is a e sport because it's mostly skill and deck making
50% Skill
25% Deck making
25% RNG
If it was more rng wise, every tournament would see other players
nope it wouldnt since they only invite famous player with a large viewer base and a specific personality. Most of them even only bring cancer and nothing they created themselves. You see tons of missplays from the pseudo "pro-scene" in every tournement its pathetic.
Not all tournaments are invitational only. In fact many have spots open for anyone that can qualify. So if its all about luck, then why don't we see random no-names win tournaments all the time!
Random no-names DO win tournaments consistently. If I recall correctly, some random Chinese player won ESL with a Mech Shaman deck not too long ago. And that's not the only occurrence; there's multiple examples of so-called "pros" losing to random no-names, who then go on to win the tournament. I'm not saying Hearthstone doesn't have a place in e-sports, though, that'll be a thing as long as there's an audience for it.
1. He's Vietnamese and lives in New York City
2. He made it to legend rank almost every month for half a year before ESL
3. The only reason he was a "no-name" is because he didn't stream until after he won the tournament;
Making legend isn't a big deal. A lot of other people could've won as well, had they been playing in his shoes, with his draws and his hand. There were ~1500 no-names better than Trump in June, seeing as he finished somewhere around 1500. Trump, in Legend, got beaten by a Rank 2 player at one point; doesn't that mean that the Rank 2 player is better than Trump? No? Why not? Just because someone made Legend doesn't mean they're not a no-name. Trump and Forsen would be no-names if they didn't stream. I could, out of a hat, pick any of the top 2000 legend players last month, and safely replace them with any of the pros. Now they're no longer no-names. The variance in Hearthstone is too high for any of the pros to be considered skillful; the reason no-names win tournaments is because there are no real pros. You, yourself, admitted that pros are only pros because they stream. I'm not saying the Hearthstone e-sports scene shouldn't exist, though; don't get me wrong.
I'd like to see OP explain how the same names are in the top rankings consistently, if the game requires nothing but sheer luck.
They're in the top rankings as a result of the 90+ hours they invest into the game. And even then, they're not consistently at the top. Trump finished ~1500 legend in June, and Forsen finished ~1800 in the same month. And this is just data from one month; there are multiple examples of this occurring.
Heartstone is a e sport because it's mostly skill and deck making
50% Skill
25% Deck making
25% RNG
If it was more rng wise, every tournament would see other players
nope it wouldnt since they only invite famous player with a large viewer base and a specific personality. Most of them even only bring cancer and nothing they created themselves. You see tons of missplays from the pseudo "pro-scene" in every tournement its pathetic.
Not all tournaments are invitational only. In fact many have spots open for anyone that can qualify. So if its all about luck, then why don't we see random no-names win tournaments all the time!
U see them there was an asian guy that won a tournement his name was something with N that just started at hearthstone.
If you idiots rly think its skill then you basicially insult yourselves.
Why? Because that would mean you guys are too bad for facehunter and Eboladin and only "Pros" can play this deck.
Seriously wake up! Everyone here could win a tournement with facehunter if he gets the chance to it. Do you rly think when a famous name win with facehunter it has something to do with skill? Rly wake up
Well, he could have a genius IQ and consequently, a very high learning curve which would allow him to learn the game quickly and outperfom his opponents simply because he is more intelligent and can make better plays. He also could have played card games his whole life, so the idea and concepts of Hearthstone were nothing new to him. But I doubt you considered those possibilities, perhaps you lack the capability to do so. Also, he only won once according to you, which means nothing. Repeat success by someone with no knowledge of the game would count for something, otherwise it is just luck or variance or whatever you want to call it. Also, some aggro does get god hands and the game is already decided at that point, but that is not a guarantee by any means, yet again luck, variance, etc. Of course the tournament scene is not great with all the famous name / invited players, but it is obvious why that happens. Lastly, nice job calling people idiots with your grammar in the state it is in. I had to deeply consider whether or not to even bother responding, and I certainly won't again. Good day.
You know, insulting everyone who disagrees with you isn't exactly the best way to reinforce your credibility. The people who win tournaments or achieve exceedingly high Legend rankings draw well; there isn't another way to say it. The margin of error in Hearthstone is too low for actual skill to play a major role in the game.
There is alot of luck and randomness involved. But popularity is why it is an "esport". Simple as that. Many people have fun playing it and therefore have fun watching and streaming it.
Some people here are obviously not speaking from experience and are not (all that bright) quick to catch on to what really goes on in the Hearthstone Legend scene specifically. The only thing that matters in terms of ranking in Hearthstone is your Legend ranking at the END of the season, which people start working towards 2-3 days before the end of the season, and even 3 days is a bit overkill. Perennial legend players achieve Legend ranking quickly within the start of the season and then just mess around until the 2-3 day point, staying in touch with the meta. Making comments about streamers being on stream for 5~ hours a day is completely off base, as there are plenty of pros who don't stream, and plenty of streamers who are just in it for the money and get to Legend simply because they do play so much, but those are not the people we are speaking about here. So, the actual time investment consists of the time spent getting Legend, which is minimal for true pros, and the time spent those 2-3 days at the end of the season, which is, as you should have guessed by this point. also quite small. Hopefully this clarifies that misconception. I will not speak on the tournaments, it is obvious to see what is going on there from a "profit business" perspective.
climb to legend minimal for true pros? the most games i can cram into a month is 60 about 2 or 3 games a day sometimes skipping days. even if i started at rank 5, a whole month of me playing would barely, if even, get me to legend and thats only if i have a 60%+ win percentage let alone the "end of season legend rank buff." That means at least 2 or more hours a day of constant grinding the ladder to achieve what you are saying. im calling you out. i smell a bull.
a normal functioning adult doesnt have 2 hours a day to spend on a card game. so whatever misconception you just cleared up, consider it uncleared. streamers live on HS. it is literally their job.
also your legendary rank actually includes all your matches including the matches you played when you werent legend rank. if you werent so full of crap you would actually know that.
There is alot of luck and randomness involved. But popularity is why it is an "esport". Simple as that. Many people have fun playing it and therefore have fun watching and streaming it.
Exactly. The game's entertainment factor is the reason people play it. Hearthstone's e-sports scene attracts a respectable audience; that's why it exists at all. Hearthstone doesn't need a skill factor to be fun, yet people continue to argue this (abundantly false) point.
I guess it depends on how you define a competitive environment. Many competition involve luck (absolute luck, such as poker, or execution luck, such as basketball). While very few does not involve luck at all, such as chess, checkers. In games, the RNG makes it fun, and even lousy players might be able to beat seasoned players through RNG alone. But it's NEVER just RNG alone.
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Random no-names DO win tournaments consistently. If I recall correctly, some random Chinese player won ESL with a Mech Shaman deck not too long ago. And that's not the only occurrence; there's multiple examples of so-called "pros" losing to random no-names, who then go on to win the tournament. I'm not saying Hearthstone doesn't have a place in e-sports, though, that'll be a thing as long as there's an audience for it.
Ok then.
Define 'skill' for me.
Some people here are obviously not speaking from experience and are not (all that bright) quick to catch on to what really goes on in the Hearthstone Legend scene specifically. The only thing that matters in terms of ranking in Hearthstone is your Legend ranking at the END of the season, which people start working towards 2-3 days before the end of the season, and even 3 days is a bit overkill. Perennial legend players achieve Legend ranking quickly within the start of the season and then just mess around until the 2-3 day point, staying in touch with the meta. Making comments about streamers being on stream for 5~ hours a day is completely off base, as there are plenty of pros who don't stream, and plenty of streamers who are just in it for the money and get to Legend simply because they do play so much, but those are not the people we are speaking about here. So, the actual time investment consists of the time spent getting Legend, which is minimal for true pros, and the time spent those 2-3 days at the end of the season, which is, as you should have guessed by this point. also quite small. Hopefully this clarifies that misconception. I will not speak on the tournaments, it is obvious to see what is going on there from a "profit business" perspective.
People keep saying that there is no skill involved, yet everyone in my friend's list ends up about the same rank at the end of the season every season. If there was no skill involved then there should be a lot more inconsistencies. Every card game has a fair amount of luck built into it, but they all also have a fair amount of skill involved too. Every time you have to make a choice there is skill involved with making the right choice, and over the course of a full tournament match there are a whole lot of choices to be made.
1. He's Vietnamese and lives in New York City
2. He made it to legend rank almost every month for half a year before ESL
3. The only reason he was a "no-name" is because he didn't stream until after he won the tournament
My question is, are these unknown players unknown because they are bad, or just because they haven't been discovered yet? Back when I played Yugioh there would be people I'd never heard of win some of the biggest tournaments of the year. It wasn't because they were lucky, it was because they were good and hadn't found their moment to shine yet. They would go on to win/place in many more tournaments after that. Hearthstone is still a young game, I'm sure many of the best players that this game will ever see haven't been discovered yet.
There are also a lot of people who don't want to be in the spotlight. They are just winning these tournaments and try to stay "Undercover". Not everyone wants to be seen on Twitch or stuff like that.
Well, he could have a genius IQ and consequently, a very high learning curve which would allow him to learn the game quickly and outperfom his opponents simply because he is more intelligent and can make better plays. He also could have played card games his whole life, so the idea and concepts of Hearthstone were nothing new to him. But I doubt you considered those possibilities, perhaps you lack the capability to do so. Also, he only won once according to you, which means nothing. Repeat success by someone with no knowledge of the game would count for something, otherwise it is just luck or variance or whatever you want to call it. Also, some aggro does get god hands and the game is already decided at that point, but that is not a guarantee by any means, yet again luck, variance, etc. Of course the tournament scene is not great with all the famous name / invited players, but it is obvious why that happens. Lastly, nice job calling people idiots with your grammar in the state it is in. I had to deeply consider whether or not to even bother responding, and I certainly won't again. Good day.
Thanks for insulting my intelligence. Even your forum buddies agree with me in that the Hearthstone pro scene shouldn't be taken seriously. I never said it shouldn't exist; it definitely should, seeing as there's an audience for it.
Anyway, first off the bat:
- Trump finished ~1500 legend in June, despite toiling for weeks on end to raise it.
- Forsen finished ~2000 legend in June and ~1000 sometime around April.
- Zetalot finished ~700 in July.
These are just a few examples. And it takes most pro players ~10 days to get to legend, if not more. That's 30-50 hours. Most streamers don't "try" for only the last 2-3 days; that mentality ceases to function when every other person in legend is doing the same the same thing. Most pros start "trying" in the last week or so. That's 85 hours, at the minimum. Add more time for the pros who don't make legend within the first ten days, which is the majority of them, and the number can easily reach ~100 hours at the minimum. Anyway, exact numbers weren't the point of my comment. My point was that, given enough time, ANYONE can make it to legend, with their ranking thereafter being based almost completely on RNG.
To close, the reason you refuse to discuss the tournament scene is becuase it's a clear representation of RNG's dominance over Hearthstone.
e-sports is stupid to begin with but the real question is who wants to play in a tourney where skill is second to RNG in deciding who wins and who doesnt. if you watch the facial expressions of the streamers at tourneys not one of them wants to be there. the last one i watch the second finalist lost to a zoo deck. when he lost he smirked. it was priceless.
if HS and e-sports were a legitimate competition the losers wouldnt be suppressing laughter after they get slaughtered by T8. also if it was a legitimate competition they wouldnt have to pay half the competitors to be there.
all e-sports are is good advertising for video games. anyone who says different are the ones being advertised to.
If you can't beat them, join them
Just to point this out:
A) Pokers first random element is the deck being shuffled.
B) Pokers second random element is the card being dealt out to each player and the cards those players draw.
C) Pokers third random element is other people with how they bluff and how much they bet.
Where as in comparison:
A) Hearthstone has from the starting gate, all three of the points from poker points I made. (How the deck is shuffled, how the hand is dealt, against other humans)
B) Cards that can theoretically get you almost-any collectible minion in the game that is basically from outside the game. (Unstable Portal, Piloted Shredder, Sneed's Old Shredder, Piloted Sky Golem.)
C) Cards that can theoretically get you any collectible spell in the game. (Spellslinger and Nexus-Champion Saraad.)
D) RNG-based cards that damage other players and/or minions. (Mad Bomber, Madder Bomber, Flame Juggler, Knife Juggler, Flamewaker, Flame Leviathan, Iron Juggernaut, Ragnaros the Firelord)
E) Shaman has a hero power that via RNG makes random totems.
F) Shamans also having spells and minions that have a chance to have higher attack or more damage or giving you murlocs. (Crackle,Lightning Storm, Fireguard Destroyer, Neptulon)
G) A card that gives you a random secret from your deck. (Mad Scientist)
H) Three randomized spells for Hunter. (Deadly Shot, Rapid Shot, Animal Companion)
I) Priests having several spells that work based on randomization. (Resurrect, Mind Games, Mind Vision, Thoughtsteal)
J) A card that randomly summons a minion from your opponent's deck. (Deathlord)
I only just scratched the surface on how many RNG based things there are in hearthstone.
Mrghl Mrghl!
I'd like to see OP explain how the same names are in the top rankings consistently, if the game requires nothing but sheer luck.
Making legend isn't a big deal. A lot of other people could've won as well, had they been playing in his shoes, with his draws and his hand. There were ~1500 no-names better than Trump in June, seeing as he finished somewhere around 1500. Trump, in Legend, got beaten by a Rank 2 player at one point; doesn't that mean that the Rank 2 player is better than Trump? No? Why not? Just because someone made Legend doesn't mean they're not a no-name. Trump and Forsen would be no-names if they didn't stream. I could, out of a hat, pick any of the top 2000 legend players last month, and safely replace them with any of the pros. Now they're no longer no-names. The variance in Hearthstone is too high for any of the pros to be considered skillful; the reason no-names win tournaments is because there are no real pros. You, yourself, admitted that pros are only pros because they stream. I'm not saying the Hearthstone e-sports scene shouldn't exist, though; don't get me wrong.
They're in the top rankings as a result of the 90+ hours they invest into the game. And even then, they're not consistently at the top. Trump finished ~1500 legend in June, and Forsen finished ~1800 in the same month. And this is just data from one month; there are multiple examples of this occurring.
You know, insulting everyone who disagrees with you isn't exactly the best way to reinforce your credibility. The people who win tournaments or achieve exceedingly high Legend rankings draw well; there isn't another way to say it. The margin of error in Hearthstone is too low for actual skill to play a major role in the game.
There is alot of luck and randomness involved. But popularity is why it is an "esport". Simple as that. Many people have fun playing it and therefore have fun watching and streaming it.
I love how most of the people in this thread treat Legend rank as if there was only 6000 total people playing the game.
climb to legend minimal for true pros? the most games i can cram into a month is 60 about 2 or 3 games a day sometimes skipping days. even if i started at rank 5, a whole month of me playing would barely, if even, get me to legend and thats only if i have a 60%+ win percentage let alone the "end of season legend rank buff." That means at least 2 or more hours a day of constant grinding the ladder to achieve what you are saying. im calling you out. i smell a bull.
a normal functioning adult doesnt have 2 hours a day to spend on a card game. so whatever misconception you just cleared up, consider it uncleared. streamers live on HS. it is literally their job.
also your legendary rank actually includes all your matches including the matches you played when you werent legend rank. if you werent so full of crap you would actually know that.
If you can't beat them, join them
Exactly. The game's entertainment factor is the reason people play it. Hearthstone's e-sports scene attracts a respectable audience; that's why it exists at all. Hearthstone doesn't need a skill factor to be fun, yet people continue to argue this (abundantly false) point.
I guess it depends on how you define a competitive environment. Many competition involve luck (absolute luck, such as poker, or execution luck, such as basketball). While very few does not involve luck at all, such as chess, checkers. In games, the RNG makes it fun, and even lousy players might be able to beat seasoned players through RNG alone. But it's NEVER just RNG alone.