There are several threads about which cards need nerfs, need to be moved to the hall of fame or moved entirely from the game. Many of these threads mark Baku and Genn as candidates for a nerf. And I totally agree with this: Looking at the winrate of even shaman and odd rogue in wild I think baku and genn should indeed be nerfed.... I think that if these cards are changed and Barnes is nerfed (e.g. to a 6 mana 5/5 creature or so) the wild meta would be much better of...
This thread is not about if Baku and Genn need a nerf, but is about discussing which nerf to Baku and Genn would be best.
So, let me start this thread with explaining which typ of nerfs I would not prefer:
- I would NOT change the concept of the cards: I really like the concept of cards that limit the cards you can put in your deck. Kazakus (best designed card EVER), Reno, the princes, baku and genn all led to new decks ideas and I think that the idea behind Baku and Genn (limit your deck to certain cards and gain an advantage) is a very good design. The problem is not the deck-limiting restriction, but that the gained advantage is currently too high...
- I would NOT change the cost of the cards: Changing the cost of the cards makes only a small difference (assuming you would NOT make Genn an odd card or Baku an even card, because that would make a difference :) )..
- I would NOT change the Attack/Health of the cards: Similarly, changing the Attack/Health of the cards does not have an impact on the winrates..
- I would propose the following change: I think that a good solution to both baku and genn would be to change the ‘start of game’-part of the cards to ‘ifthiscard is in your opening hand’ (or a better wording) and ensure that (similarly to the quests) the card will always appear in your starting hand.
Why this proposal? This way the only way to get the benefit of baku and genn would be to keep it in your opening hand, which will ensure even shaman and odd rogue will not snowball so easily anymore because they have a clunky 6 or 9 card in their opening hand. This might just be the minor nerf these two cards need without changing the idea behind them. Another benefit of this change would be that the odd/even decks that reply on early minions and early board control will be impacted more than decks that are more control-orientated (because of the 'clunky' Genn/Baku in your hand). This would mean the nerf hits mainly the oppressive decks like odd rogue, even shaman, odd paladin and even paladin and will touch odd mage or even warlock less...
Actually a pretty good idea. There is probly a better/cleaner way of wording for it, but I like the core idea of messing with Odd/Even decks' tempo/curve.
Avoid using the hero power (to simulate the failure in mulligan).
Let me know how playable it is...
I think you missed the part where I said that Genn/Baku will (just like the quests) automatically appear in your starting hand... You will not need to search for it in the mulligan...
Avoid using the hero power (to simulate the failure in mulligan).
Let me know how playable it is...
I think you missed the part where I said that Genn/Baku will (just like the quests) automatically appear in your starting hand... You will not need to search for it in the mulligan...
Oh my bad. Indeed I missed that!
In that case, It may be ok.
Even tho it's not really an elegant nerf, and I am not even sure of the real impact... But probably ok.
Avoid using the hero power (to simulate the failure in mulligan).
Let me know how playable it is...
I think you missed the part where I said that Genn/Baku will (just like the quests) automatically appear in your starting hand... You will not need to search for it in the mulligan...
Oh my bad. Indeed I missed that!
SO basically, you suggest to make them like Quests?
In that case, I may agree with it. Even tho it's not really an elegant nerf, and I am not even sure of the real impact...
Stop being annoying dude, Genn and Baku doesn't need Nerfs. I'll help u now to get trough this hell u put urself up: SOLUTIONS!!! 1 - Sit and start to read cars
2 - Think in a strategy against the actual meta (Genn Baku whatever)
3 - Build a deck thinking about the curves and answers for those decks.
4 - Play against enough to be good.
Final - U learned how to play game, now fuck off the Salty Nerf ODD/EVEN thread and go play the game. U never going to be something if u don't know or don't have the will to fight and win against it. Requires Time and Practice, good luck.
Wow! ToxicUSer really is a toxic user! Such an honest screen name. Incredible!
I personally didn't see this as a "salt thread" but rather a discussion. If you think about it, changes to Baku and Genn could be inevitable as Team5 has made it seem as balancing Wild is an important part of their long term game plan for the overall health of Hearthstone. When the WitchWood rotates out of standard next year, this is when I can see Odd and Even decks in Wild getting more and more powerful and becoming big problems. This is because right now, they limit some designs with consideration for odd/even. But when that effect is out of standard, they may not give it as much thought, accidentally creating some really broken stuff in those archetypes in Wild (potentially).
I like your idea, OP. I know the intent with "Start of Game" was to avoid the "Keleseth effect" where you win or lose based on drawing them. The "always start in your hand" option like with Quests does eliminate that factor and could be a big enough downside as well as this throws off your opening hand curve with the mandatory one high cost card that right now, no one keeps in their opening hand unless it comes in as a mulligan card.
I had a discussion about probable changes a little while ago, and my thoughts on this was to make it so Baku gives you your upgraded hero power on turns when you didn't use your hero power the previous turn. So you still get the effect, but not a constant buffed hero power.
For Genn, the same effect really does nothing except block a turn 1 hero power. Could be big in an Even Lock game, but elsewhere... I don't know if it has enough impact to really matter. So I thought Genn could start you at 1 cost hero power, but every turn you use it, the cost goes up by 1 the following turn, and then comes down 2 when you don't use it, but never costing less than 1. Essentially you get the same effect, and really shouldn't cause too much of an issue with how you play these decks, unless you love to spam that hero power for 1!
I will add though, I think your proposal would be more likely, as mine messes too much with how the cards and their benefit operates in game. And Team5 hates that kind of stuff. They'd rather just change mana cost. Like make Baku cost 10, and Genn cost 7! Oh... wait, no! :)
While this idea isn't outlandish or unfair like most nerf cries, it's simply not needed. The idea behind Odd and Even decks is a self imposed restriction on card use for a benefit. If you add another mulligan restriction you're just unnecessarily hurting the archtypes. When playing against these decks opponents get the advantage of knowing what cards can and can't be played and you can adjust your play accordingly.
Now, something I would like to see is a nerf to the discovery/RNG mechanics utilized within these decks. If your deck can only be even/odd then your discovery/RNG cards should only discover/create even/odd cards accordingly. No more Tarims in Odd Paladin and no more healing rains in Even Shaman for example. This keeps with them theme of the deck without letting them bypass the restrictions that make up for the effect they're benefiting from
I think that is a terrible idea. You just turn the core of the deck into a highroll. People like even/odd decks because they're generally consistent, this would make the decks terrible and highrolly. I don't even think they need a nerf. In standard the decks are fine. I'm not a wild player but i'm aware of how nuts even shaman is there, maybe nerf a key card or two in that deck if it's that oppressive.
If you want to nerf the deck you could make it like a quest where you're forced to have Genn/Baku in the opening hand but that doesn't make sense in terms of flavor or balance and it's worse for baku than genn.
I think that is a terrible idea. You just turn the core of the deck into a highroll. People like even/odd decks because they're generally consistent, this would make the decks terrible and highrolly. I don't even think they need a nerf. In standard the decks are fine. I'm not a wild player but i'm aware of how nuts even shaman is there, maybe nerf a key card or two in that deck if it's that oppressive.
If you want to nerf the deck you could make it like a quest where you're forced to have Genn/Baku in the opening hand but that doesn't make sense in terms of flavor or balance and it's worse for baku than genn.
Highroll? The only difference is that you have genn/baku in your starting hand. Nothing random about that... How is this ‘highrolly’
While this idea isn't outlandish or unfair like most nerf cries, it's simply not needed. The idea behind Odd and Even decks is a self imposed restriction on card use for a benefit. If you add another mulligan restriction you're just unnecessarily hurting the archtypes. When playing against these decks opponents get the advantage of knowing what cards can and can't be played and you can adjust your play accordingly.
Now, something I would like to see is a nerf to the discovery/RNG mechanics utilized within these decks. If your deck can only be even/odd then your discovery/RNG cards should only discover/create even/odd cards accordingly. No more Tarims in Odd Paladin and no more healing rains in Even Shaman for example. This keeps with them theme of the deck without letting them bypass the restrictions that make up for the effect they're benefiting from
i complete agree with your restriction/benefit. However, looking at the winrates, the advantage clearly outweighs the self imposed restriction for even shaman and odd rogue.
we can keep asking for nerfs for particular odd/even decks like you ask above, like the level-up nerf, etcetera, but the problem is that if baku or genn is not updated this problem remains...
While this idea isn't outlandish or unfair like most nerf cries, it's simply not needed. The idea behind Odd and Even decks is a self imposed restriction on card use for a benefit. If you add another mulligan restriction you're just unnecessarily hurting the archtypes. When playing against these decks opponents get the advantage of knowing what cards can and can't be played and you can adjust your play accordingly.
Now, something I would like to see is a nerf to the discovery/RNG mechanics utilized within these decks. If your deck can only be even/odd then your discovery/RNG cards should only discover/create even/odd cards accordingly. No more Tarims in Odd Paladin and no more healing rains in Even Shaman for example. This keeps with them theme of the deck without letting them bypass the restrictions that make up for the effect they're benefiting from
i complete agree with your first sentences. However, looking at the winrates, the advantage clearly outweighs the self imposed restriction for even shaman and odd rogue.
we can keep asking for nerfs for particular odd/even decks like you ask above, like the level-up nerf, etcetera, but the problem is that if baku or genn is not updated this problem remains...
What exactly the problem some classes be better in even/odd than others?
Priest and warrior have better dragon decks than others.
Warlock, priest and mage have better singleton decks than others.
Druid and hunter have better beast decks than others.
There are several threads about which cards need nerfs, need to be moved to the hall of fame or moved entirely from the game. Many of these threads mark Baku and Genn as candidates for a nerf. And I totally agree with this: Looking at the winrate of even shaman and odd rogue in wild I think baku and genn should indeed be nerfed.... I think that if these cards are changed and Barnes is nerfed (e.g. to a 6 mana 5/5 creature or so) the wild meta would be much better of...
This thread is not about if Baku and Genn need a nerf, but is about discussing which nerf to Baku and Genn would be best.
So, let me start this thread with explaining which typ of nerfs I would not prefer:
- I would NOT change the concept of the cards: I really like the concept of cards that limit the cards you can put in your deck. Kazakus (best designed card EVER), Reno, the princes, baku and genn all led to new decks ideas and I think that the idea behind Baku and Genn (limit your deck to certain cards and gain an advantage) is a very good design. The problem is not the deck-limiting restriction, but that the gained advantage is currently too high...
- I would NOT change the cost of the cards: Changing the cost of the cards makes only a small difference (assuming you would NOT make Genn an odd card or Baku an even card, because that would make a difference :) )..
- I would NOT change the Attack/Health of the cards: Similarly, changing the Attack/Health of the cards does not have an impact on the winrates..
- I would propose the following change: I think that a good solution to both baku and genn would be to change the ‘start of game’-part of the cards to ‘ifthiscard is in your opening hand’ (or a better wording) and ensure that (similarly to the quests) the card will always appear in your starting hand.
Why this proposal? This way the only way to get the benefit of baku and genn would be to keep it in your opening hand, which will ensure even shaman and odd rogue will not snowball so easily anymore because they have a clunky 6 or 9 card in their opening hand. This might just be the minor nerf these two cards need without changing the idea behind them. Another benefit of this change would be that the odd/even decks that reply on early minions and early board control will be impacted more than decks that are more control-orientated (because of the 'clunky' Genn/Baku in your hand). This would mean the nerf hits mainly the oppressive decks like odd rogue, even shaman, odd paladin and even paladin and will touch odd mage or even warlock less...
So Baku deck always start with a useless dead card.........this is silly. Upgraded hero power used to be a thing not unavailable until turn 6. It's outright not a good idea. Baku is broken. (Especially with mage/hunter/pal)
I like your idea. Reno decks have dowside of running only one-ofs..but dont have any advatage until he or kazakus is played (also need to play that spell which can be coutered with secret). And still, they can be countered with dirty rat, demonic project, mill etc...but genn and baku. You dont have any dowside cause your hero power is stronger from turn 1 even if you didnt draw/play them....
I dont have any problems with even/odd decks...but they could designe them little bit better.
This is the right idea for a nerf: requiring that these cards start in your hand. With the drawn/mulligan Winrates of Baku and Genn hovering around 50%, that’s enough to bring these decks down to a reasonable level without tinkering with the basic mechanics that make the decks popular (assuming people enjoy the odd/even play style and not just the associated Winrates).
There are several threads about which cards need nerfs, need to be moved to the hall of fame or moved entirely from the game. Many of these threads mark Baku and Genn as candidates for a nerf. And I totally agree with this: Looking at the winrate of even shaman and odd rogue in wild I think baku and genn should indeed be nerfed.... I think that if these cards are changed and Barnes is nerfed (e.g. to a 6 mana 5/5 creature or so) the wild meta would be much better of...
This thread is not about if Baku and Genn need a nerf, but is about discussing which nerf to Baku and Genn would be best.
So, let me start this thread with explaining which typ of nerfs I would not prefer:
- I would NOT change the concept of the cards: I really like the concept of cards that limit the cards you can put in your deck. Kazakus (best designed card EVER), Reno, the princes, baku and genn all led to new decks ideas and I think that the idea behind Baku and Genn (limit your deck to certain cards and gain an advantage) is a very good design. The problem is not the deck-limiting restriction, but that the gained advantage is currently too high...
- I would NOT change the cost of the cards: Changing the cost of the cards makes only a small difference (assuming you would NOT make Genn an odd card or Baku an even card, because that would make a difference :) )..
- I would NOT change the Attack/Health of the cards: Similarly, changing the Attack/Health of the cards does not have an impact on the winrates..
- I would propose the following change: I think that a good solution to both baku and genn would be to change the ‘start of game’-part of the cards to ‘if this card is in your opening hand’ (or a better wording) and ensure that (similarly to the quests) the card will always appear in your starting hand.
Why this proposal? This way the only way to get the benefit of baku and genn would be to keep it in your opening hand, which will ensure even shaman and odd rogue will not snowball so easily anymore because they have a clunky 6 or 9 card in their opening hand. This might just be the minor nerf these two cards need without changing the idea behind them. Another benefit of this change would be that the odd/even decks that reply on early minions and early board control will be impacted more than decks that are more control-orientated (because of the 'clunky' Genn/Baku in your hand). This would mean the nerf hits mainly the oppressive decks like odd rogue, even shaman, odd paladin and even paladin and will touch odd mage or even warlock less...
I really like this idea, I feel like it's the best one suggested so far so +1!
Skidaddle skidoodle your Milhouse manastorm is now a noodle
Try to play a game with Wild Even Shaman.
Avoid using the hero power (to simulate the failure in mulligan).
Let me know how playable it is...
Actually a pretty good idea. There is probly a better/cleaner way of wording for it, but I like the core idea of messing with Odd/Even decks' tempo/curve.
I think you missed the part where I said that Genn/Baku will (just like the quests) automatically appear in your starting hand... You will not need to search for it in the mulligan...
EDIT: see below.
Oh my bad. Indeed I missed that!
In that case, It may be ok.
Even tho it's not really an elegant nerf, and I am not even sure of the real impact... But probably ok.
Yep.. just like quests...
Stop being annoying dude, Genn and Baku doesn't need Nerfs. I'll help u now to get trough this hell u put urself up:
SOLUTIONS!!!
1 - Sit and start to read cars
2 - Think in a strategy against the actual meta (Genn Baku whatever)
3 - Build a deck thinking about the curves and answers for those decks.
4 - Play against enough to be good.
Final - U learned how to play game, now fuck off the Salty Nerf ODD/EVEN thread and go play the game. U never going to be something if u don't know or don't have the will to fight and win against it. Requires Time and Practice, good luck.
Genn maybe be playable because is not terrible 6/5 for 6 manas but Baku just kill the card unless the cost reduced to 7.
Wow! ToxicUSer really is a toxic user! Such an honest screen name. Incredible!
I personally didn't see this as a "salt thread" but rather a discussion. If you think about it, changes to Baku and Genn could be inevitable as Team5 has made it seem as balancing Wild is an important part of their long term game plan for the overall health of Hearthstone. When the WitchWood rotates out of standard next year, this is when I can see Odd and Even decks in Wild getting more and more powerful and becoming big problems. This is because right now, they limit some designs with consideration for odd/even. But when that effect is out of standard, they may not give it as much thought, accidentally creating some really broken stuff in those archetypes in Wild (potentially).
I like your idea, OP. I know the intent with "Start of Game" was to avoid the "Keleseth effect" where you win or lose based on drawing them. The "always start in your hand" option like with Quests does eliminate that factor and could be a big enough downside as well as this throws off your opening hand curve with the mandatory one high cost card that right now, no one keeps in their opening hand unless it comes in as a mulligan card.
I had a discussion about probable changes a little while ago, and my thoughts on this was to make it so Baku gives you your upgraded hero power on turns when you didn't use your hero power the previous turn. So you still get the effect, but not a constant buffed hero power.
For Genn, the same effect really does nothing except block a turn 1 hero power. Could be big in an Even Lock game, but elsewhere... I don't know if it has enough impact to really matter. So I thought Genn could start you at 1 cost hero power, but every turn you use it, the cost goes up by 1 the following turn, and then comes down 2 when you don't use it, but never costing less than 1. Essentially you get the same effect, and really shouldn't cause too much of an issue with how you play these decks, unless you love to spam that hero power for 1!
I will add though, I think your proposal would be more likely, as mine messes too much with how the cards and their benefit operates in game. And Team5 hates that kind of stuff. They'd rather just change mana cost. Like make Baku cost 10, and Genn cost 7! Oh... wait, no! :)
While this idea isn't outlandish or unfair like most nerf cries, it's simply not needed. The idea behind Odd and Even decks is a self imposed restriction on card use for a benefit. If you add another mulligan restriction you're just unnecessarily hurting the archtypes. When playing against these decks opponents get the advantage of knowing what cards can and can't be played and you can adjust your play accordingly.
Now, something I would like to see is a nerf to the discovery/RNG mechanics utilized within these decks. If your deck can only be even/odd then your discovery/RNG cards should only discover/create even/odd cards accordingly. No more Tarims in Odd Paladin and no more healing rains in Even Shaman for example. This keeps with them theme of the deck without letting them bypass the restrictions that make up for the effect they're benefiting from
I think that is a terrible idea. You just turn the core of the deck into a highroll. People like even/odd decks because they're generally consistent, this would make the decks terrible and highrolly. I don't even think they need a nerf. In standard the decks are fine. I'm not a wild player but i'm aware of how nuts even shaman is there, maybe nerf a key card or two in that deck if it's that oppressive.
If you want to nerf the deck you could make it like a quest where you're forced to have Genn/Baku in the opening hand but that doesn't make sense in terms of flavor or balance and it's worse for baku than genn.
Highroll? The only difference is that you have genn/baku in your starting hand. Nothing random about that... How is this ‘highrolly’
i complete agree with your restriction/benefit. However, looking at the winrates, the advantage clearly outweighs the self imposed restriction for even shaman and odd rogue.
we can keep asking for nerfs for particular odd/even decks like you ask above, like the level-up nerf, etcetera, but the problem is that if baku or genn is not updated this problem remains...
What exactly the problem some classes be better in even/odd than others?
Priest and warrior have better dragon decks than others.
Warlock, priest and mage have better singleton decks than others.
Druid and hunter have better beast decks than others.
And the list can going...
So Baku deck always start with a useless dead card.........this is silly. Upgraded hero power used to be a thing not unavailable until turn 6. It's outright not a good idea. Baku is broken. (Especially with mage/hunter/pal)
Fun > Meta
Imagine if they do that with reno *.* hahahahha
I like your idea. Reno decks have dowside of running only one-ofs..but dont have any advatage until he or kazakus is played (also need to play that spell which can be coutered with secret). And still, they can be countered with dirty rat, demonic project, mill etc...but genn and baku. You dont have any dowside cause your hero power is stronger from turn 1 even if you didnt draw/play them....
I dont have any problems with even/odd decks...but they could designe them little bit better.
A possible nerf could be to add to the hero powers something like that:
"The next card you play this turn costs 2 more"
Believe in potential; the multiverse blesses some beings with extraordinary traits, with the potential to do—to be—great things.
This is the right idea for a nerf: requiring that these cards start in your hand. With the drawn/mulligan Winrates of Baku and Genn hovering around 50%, that’s enough to bring these decks down to a reasonable level without tinkering with the basic mechanics that make the decks popular (assuming people enjoy the odd/even play style and not just the associated Winrates).