Since secrets costs 2, Even Hunter might be a thing.
I ran over people with even hunter without this so expect secret hunter cancer to continue
Yeah, especially in wild. I've been climbing pretty successfully with an even secret hunter in Wild even without the Spellstone. I think a lot of it is that people don't know what to expect from the deck and secrets aren't popular enough to tech against.
I'm curious to see how well it works in the list, or if it'll be another Level Up! situation. Although now I'm a little worried that it'll end up popular enough that people will start teching secret counters and I'll get screwed lol
LOL! Typically hunter isnt amusing for me to play. The SMorcing is just way too easy but I still test a lot of stuff and man..secrets, cheap 2 dmg, direfrenzy, flanking strike....just all "GG EZ". I think I even ran Kathrena in one of my lists not caring about the uber cheap dr activators. It's still a 6/6 that summons a 7/7 or 6/5. I think I had the deathrattle copy card because its only 6 as well. So r00d.
Even hunter will struggle to find a replacement for Kill Command and Animal Companion, two of the strongest cards in the game, and struggle with a crowded 6-slot. Will consistent face make the difference? Time will tell.
I honestly cant think of how to even use this spellstone now. I must be just bad at deck building....
Right now in the meta if I can spell stone by 5 which probably happens 2 out of every 4-5 matches if i'm lucky, then my opponent can usually clear the board making it useless anyways.
However with them changing it to 6 mana it now means Its more likely to be cleared by the time i play it. The only solution i can see is to try creating an even hunter deck but no matter what cards i put together nothing looks that good at all..
It ends up with the deck having FAR too many 2 drops and since its hunter there is zero card draw.
So i honestly dont see any good hunter decks when this change happens. I feel like this will end up sending hunters back into the dark ages where they have always been. I'll keep looking at the cards and see if i can figure out ANY good deck builds besides going the deathrattle route...
PS: With it being an even hunter that means you cant use Master's Call for card draw.... As well as Hunters mark being 2 mana means that it can be in even decks now however the Bow is 1 mana so wtf is the use of that? Huntersmark is pretty useless from what i can tell in an even deck.
Curious to see if anyone has any ideas on viable post nerf decks. Let me know cuz Hunters always been my main and i already know when Rexxar rotates out hunters will be in a bad state again depending what the next expansion gives us.
Since secrets costs 2, Even Hunter might be a thing.
I ran over people with even hunter without this so expect secret hunter cancer to continue
Yeah, especially in wild. I've been climbing pretty successfully with an even secret hunter in Wild even without the Spellstone. I think a lot of it is that people don't know what to expect from the deck and secrets aren't popular enough to tech against.
I'm curious to see how well it works in the list, or if it'll be another Level Up! situation. Although now I'm a little worried that it'll end up popular enough that people will start teching secret counters and I'll get screwed lol
uhmm not to hijack the thread but with Subject 9 [/card]and [card]cloaked huntress being odd, there aren't too many things that support even secret builds asides from maybe mad scientist, so i'm actually really curious about your build
I wrote the below post a month or so ago to address three proposed nerfs to the spellstone, one of which is the nerf Blizzard decided to enact. I post it here in its entirety because it references itself a lot and is difficult to cut up. My only new thought to add is that it is interesting to see Odd Paladin escape another round of nerfs despite remaining within striking distance of the best ladder deck for an entire year.
I doubt it will change OP's mind, but there is a premise here that is simply untrue. The statement is made that 12 stats for 5 mana (the original version of the spellstone) is sufficiently powerful to play on its own. That is not close to true. We talk about the general formula of 2(x plus 1) stats for x mana being the target for a vanilla creature, but this is only true at 1 and 2 mana. As you move up the mana curve, you see zero examples of vanilla creatures being played at this cost ratio. I looked through the 18 standard decks I have built at the moment, and I'll share the 3 closest analogous examples.
Twilight Drake: 4 mana for 4 plus X stats. Excluding the occasional dragon priest, twilight drake is only featured in even lock, a deck that is uniquely suited to getting the most stats out of the card. I think it is reasonable to assume we will get 12 to 13 stats out of this card more often than not, and that's a 4 mana card.
Cobalt Scalebane: 5 mana for 13 stats (plus the possibility for more in future turns.
Funglemancer: 5 mana for 12 stats PLUS the likelihood that 8 of those stats can be used on the same turn it is played. Funglemancer is roughly (keep in mind, I said ROUGHLY) comparable to 5 mana for 12 stats and do 4 damage to attackable target. I realize that's not a perfect analogy, but it's close.
All of these prove fairly conclusively that the upgrade potential is the only reason the spellstone ever sees play. It is also worth noting that not all stats are created equal. In most cases, a single 4/9 drake has far more survivability than 2 or even 3 3/3 wolves.
None of this is to say that the hunter stone isn't a good card. It is the finishing touch that made spell hunter a viable deck (arguably Secret Hunter wasn't until Subject 9 came along). But the premise that the unupgraded version of the stone is a viable card is demonstrably untrue. So, in order for the card to even be worth its casting cost, it needs a single upgrade. Secret Hunter runs far more secrets than are optimal, and in many cases against many decks, the secrets represent a tempo loss compared to what else could be done with the mana it takes to cast them (I'm fully aware there are circumstances where this is not the case, but the general statement is correct).
So, as to the proposed nerfs:
Raising the cost to 6 further exacerbates the worthlessness of the unupgraded version. The only 2 semi-vanilla 6-cost stat cards that I could find in competitive standard are Dread Infernal and Spikeridged Steed (Genn Greymane is obviously not included for its vanilla stats). Dread Infernal is a base 12 stats, but it is very difficult to codify how many extra stats are baked into the battlecry, not to mention the potential for 12 more stats when Gul'dan is played. Spikeridge is a straight up 16 stat card AND it can be put on a minion ready to attack same turn AND the defense slant of the stats increase the survivability of the minion when compared to 3/3s.
Starting the card at 1 wolf means that the popular six secret spell hunter decks will find themselves either getting six stats for 5 mana or stranding the card in hand approximately 20% of the turn 5s they see (I'm assuming most people don't blind mulligan for secrets without the stone in hand). That is a long and substantiated way of saying the card would never see play.
Requiring two secrets to upgrade would roughly mean that 35% of the time the spell hunter would reach turn 5 without a single upgrade, which takes us back to how poorly the unupgraded version is statted. Secret Hunter, which runs 10-12 secrets, would face that problem only 20% of the time, but neither deck would be able to upgrade twice in most circumstances. Without the realistic possibility of a double upgrade, I suspect there are better options out there.
The percentages given above are armchair math, but I think they are close enough to hold up the point. The popularity of decks centered around this spellstone does not speak to balance considerations. Having considered the closest analogous card, it does not appear that a nerf is needed.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Since secrets costs 2, Even Hunter might be a thing.
I ran over people with even hunter without this so expect secret hunter cancer to continue
Yeah, especially in wild. I've been climbing pretty successfully with an even secret hunter in Wild even without the Spellstone. I think a lot of it is that people don't know what to expect from the deck and secrets aren't popular enough to tech against.
I'm curious to see how well it works in the list, or if it'll be another Level Up! situation. Although now I'm a little worried that it'll end up popular enough that people will start teching secret counters and I'll get screwed lol
uhmm not to hijack the thread but with Subject 9and Cloaked Huntress being odd, there aren't too many things that support even secret builds asides from maybe mad scientist, so i'm actually really curious about your build
Yeah, Mad Scientist is the only secret support in the deck, but it REALLY puts in work by thinning the deck. My build is more like a hero power/burn deck that uses the secrets for disruption (Wandering, Freezing) and pressure (Cat, Bear) while you kill them with cards like Garrison Commander, Lifedrinker, Frost Giant, and Quick Shot. I also LOVE Mojomaster Zihi in the deck, to keep things like Big Priest, Druid, and Warlock from getting out of hand in the lategame.
I've had a pretty good matchup against anything that isn't Odd Paladin lately, AND there's a lot of flexible slots in the list I've been playing so I'm interested to see if adding a couple more 6-drops will work out.
Personally I don’t care that much about this nerf.
All the Hunters at high Legend ( I remember a game vs Hunterace) played anyways already a list without the spellstone. ( I believe something with Timberwolf, Lifedrinker, not even sure if they play Rexxar) .
So in all honesty I doubt this will change anything to the popularity of Hunter.
Due to the fact that I came back after a 2-year absence, I only played hunter because it`s an affordable deck. I think the nerf is fair. Paladin gets nerfed, but what about the $##$@#$@#$ priest….
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LOL! Typically hunter isnt amusing for me to play. The SMorcing is just way too easy but I still test a lot of stuff and man..secrets, cheap 2 dmg, direfrenzy, flanking strike....just all "GG EZ". I think I even ran Kathrena in one of my lists not caring about the uber cheap dr activators. It's still a 6/6 that summons a 7/7 or 6/5. I think I had the deathrattle copy card because its only 6 as well. So r00d.
Fun > Meta
Excellent change! Exactly how I think it should have been done.
This is not nerf, it's a buff for the Even Hunter.
Even Hunter soooo good now. The only reason NOT to play even hunter was the spellstone. lol blizzard
Even hunter will struggle to find a replacement for Kill Command and Animal Companion, two of the strongest cards in the game, and struggle with a crowded 6-slot. Will consistent face make the difference? Time will tell.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I rather they nerf deathstalker rexxar. Emerald spellstone is fine... Sort of.
I honestly cant think of how to even use this spellstone now. I must be just bad at deck building....
Right now in the meta if I can spell stone by 5 which probably happens 2 out of every 4-5 matches if i'm lucky, then my opponent can usually clear the board making it useless anyways.
However with them changing it to 6 mana it now means Its more likely to be cleared by the time i play it. The only solution i can see is to try creating an even hunter deck but no matter what cards i put together nothing looks that good at all..
It ends up with the deck having FAR too many 2 drops and since its hunter there is zero card draw.
So i honestly dont see any good hunter decks when this change happens. I feel like this will end up sending hunters back into the dark ages where they have always been. I'll keep looking at the cards and see if i can figure out ANY good deck builds besides going the deathrattle route...
PS: With it being an even hunter that means you cant use Master's Call for card draw.... As well as Hunters mark being 2 mana means that it can be in even decks now however the Bow is 1 mana so wtf is the use of that? Huntersmark is pretty useless from what i can tell in an even deck.
Curious to see if anyone has any ideas on viable post nerf decks. Let me know cuz Hunters always been my main and i already know when Rexxar rotates out hunters will be in a bad state again depending what the next expansion gives us.
good nerf, no doubt
uhmm not to hijack the thread but with Subject 9 [/card]and [card]cloaked huntress being odd, there aren't too many things that support even secret builds asides from maybe mad scientist, so i'm actually really curious about your build
Yep.
Fun > Meta
Useful and helpful response. You sir are a great member of society.
I wrote the below post a month or so ago to address three proposed nerfs to the spellstone, one of which is the nerf Blizzard decided to enact. I post it here in its entirety because it references itself a lot and is difficult to cut up. My only new thought to add is that it is interesting to see Odd Paladin escape another round of nerfs despite remaining within striking distance of the best ladder deck for an entire year.
I doubt it will change OP's mind, but there is a premise here that is simply untrue. The statement is made that 12 stats for 5 mana (the original version of the spellstone) is sufficiently powerful to play on its own. That is not close to true. We talk about the general formula of 2(x plus 1) stats for x mana being the target for a vanilla creature, but this is only true at 1 and 2 mana. As you move up the mana curve, you see zero examples of vanilla creatures being played at this cost ratio. I looked through the 18 standard decks I have built at the moment, and I'll share the 3 closest analogous examples.
Twilight Drake: 4 mana for 4 plus X stats. Excluding the occasional dragon priest, twilight drake is only featured in even lock, a deck that is uniquely suited to getting the most stats out of the card. I think it is reasonable to assume we will get 12 to 13 stats out of this card more often than not, and that's a 4 mana card.
Cobalt Scalebane: 5 mana for 13 stats (plus the possibility for more in future turns.
Funglemancer: 5 mana for 12 stats PLUS the likelihood that 8 of those stats can be used on the same turn it is played. Funglemancer is roughly (keep in mind, I said ROUGHLY) comparable to 5 mana for 12 stats and do 4 damage to attackable target. I realize that's not a perfect analogy, but it's close.
All of these prove fairly conclusively that the upgrade potential is the only reason the spellstone ever sees play. It is also worth noting that not all stats are created equal. In most cases, a single 4/9 drake has far more survivability than 2 or even 3 3/3 wolves.
None of this is to say that the hunter stone isn't a good card. It is the finishing touch that made spell hunter a viable deck (arguably Secret Hunter wasn't until Subject 9 came along). But the premise that the unupgraded version of the stone is a viable card is demonstrably untrue. So, in order for the card to even be worth its casting cost, it needs a single upgrade. Secret Hunter runs far more secrets than are optimal, and in many cases against many decks, the secrets represent a tempo loss compared to what else could be done with the mana it takes to cast them (I'm fully aware there are circumstances where this is not the case, but the general statement is correct).
So, as to the proposed nerfs:
Raising the cost to 6 further exacerbates the worthlessness of the unupgraded version. The only 2 semi-vanilla 6-cost stat cards that I could find in competitive standard are Dread Infernal and Spikeridged Steed (Genn Greymane is obviously not included for its vanilla stats). Dread Infernal is a base 12 stats, but it is very difficult to codify how many extra stats are baked into the battlecry, not to mention the potential for 12 more stats when Gul'dan is played. Spikeridge is a straight up 16 stat card AND it can be put on a minion ready to attack same turn AND the defense slant of the stats increase the survivability of the minion when compared to 3/3s.
Starting the card at 1 wolf means that the popular six secret spell hunter decks will find themselves either getting six stats for 5 mana or stranding the card in hand approximately 20% of the turn 5s they see (I'm assuming most people don't blind mulligan for secrets without the stone in hand). That is a long and substantiated way of saying the card would never see play.
Requiring two secrets to upgrade would roughly mean that 35% of the time the spell hunter would reach turn 5 without a single upgrade, which takes us back to how poorly the unupgraded version is statted. Secret Hunter, which runs 10-12 secrets, would face that problem only 20% of the time, but neither deck would be able to upgrade twice in most circumstances. Without the realistic possibility of a double upgrade, I suspect there are better options out there.
The percentages given above are armchair math, but I think they are close enough to hold up the point. The popularity of decks centered around this spellstone does not speak to balance considerations. Having considered the closest analogous card, it does not appear that a nerf is needed.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Can younpaste the link? App it
Waited 2 years just in time for rotation.
Similar to one of the greymane decks i played before. Will be valid once nerfs are live
This is a SMALL hunter version which is just ez pz smorcing
Fun > Meta
such a needed nerf
Yeah, Mad Scientist is the only secret support in the deck, but it REALLY puts in work by thinning the deck. My build is more like a hero power/burn deck that uses the secrets for disruption (Wandering, Freezing) and pressure (Cat, Bear) while you kill them with cards like Garrison Commander, Lifedrinker, Frost Giant, and Quick Shot. I also LOVE Mojomaster Zihi in the deck, to keep things like Big Priest, Druid, and Warlock from getting out of hand in the lategame.
I've had a pretty good matchup against anything that isn't Odd Paladin lately, AND there's a lot of flexible slots in the list I've been playing so I'm interested to see if adding a couple more 6-drops will work out.
Personally I don’t care that much about this nerf.
All the Hunters at high Legend ( I remember a game vs Hunterace) played anyways already a list without the spellstone. ( I believe something with Timberwolf, Lifedrinker, not even sure if they play Rexxar) .
So in all honesty I doubt this will change anything to the popularity of Hunter.
Fuck you Blizzard with this nerf
Due to the fact that I came back after a 2-year absence, I only played hunter because it`s an affordable deck. I think the nerf is fair. Paladin gets nerfed, but what about the $##$@#$@#$ priest….