Hearthpwn

Quote from Maukiepaukie >>

Quote from Nicholasjh >>

Quote from Vakulaw >>

will this ever get nerfed???

 Unlikely. Read the thread and you will see it's not needed. 

 

 One day you will learn that there are reasons besides overpoweredness to nerf cards.

@xxhellfirexx3; I think that's where your opinion of what's good/bad in the game simply just differs from the design direction. It's certainly not bad to enjoy reactive gameplay, but I personally really like that reactive gameplay isn't top tier since it generally makes competitive play look extremely boring (granted some of the best matches were things like Freeze mirrors, but overall after seeing the 10th Control Warrior deck spending turns hitting Tank Up I'm absolutely not a fan); and with that in mind I can easily see the argument for why having multiple punishes in the game is a direction that could appeal to a lot of people. 

I think the problem with wanting "close to even" win percentages across the board is that it's just not really how card games function in general. MTG has even more lopsided matchups, Eternal is filled with lopsided matchups, it's just a mix of how deck mechanics/archetypes/builds tend to pan out when they're actually promoting balanced metas with options; now, this isn't to say ladder is an any way a good design currently... but the matchup diversity right now is actually something I'm quite happy with. Maybe as it develops further it becomes less diverse (the Data Reaper prediction is that Dragon Priest is potentially meta breaking for instance since it's so well rounded), but currently I like that picking Aggro/Midrange/Control comes with a lot of variations in how you need to approach the game. If you don't have significantly disadvantaged matchups there's no real test to skill since you're never going to have to take big risks and play optimally. If you want actual balanced matchups I think you'd have to look for something with an inherently less random system in it.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure I see where you're getting at with Hunter not being viable for Control. It's certainly the case they're very poor at it, but they're one of the kings of midrange pressure; it's just the class design in action, and generally where they get to do unfair things like running Highmanes. Anyfin is unfair in the sense it's a huge boost to inevitability, but if you look at how it's failed to really make a dent in the meta has that actually really mattered? Unfairness is what makes something viable, and once again this just goes back to card game design in general. In regards to Warrior and Priest, it's subjective how unfair those feel... but when they're good, they're absurdly good; you can even boil Priest's down to something like being able to Entomb stuff, it's arguably the best hard removal in the game in the class with an already well supplied list of removal options and multiple ways to simply outvalue you. 

I don't agree with any need to arbitrarily slow down Wild, it's generally been a slow format anyway. You have Chow/Belcher/Deathlord options, aggro has an insane amount of punishes already pre-existing. It's also still only a month in, so I honestly don't think it's remotely deserved to go after any decks yet while the meta is still shifting. It's also a high power level format in which aggro hasn't really been able to compete this year, so I'm not really against letting them have some time to shine. 

In regards to the idea that there are "fundamental flaws" in the game, I can concede it's not perfect but for the most part if an emphasis on proactive strategies or fast games are not what you're looking for in a game then you should consider that the game's core design has really never been aimed at you. I had an hour and a half conversation with a friend of mine who's quit the game to play Eternal because he shares the same opinion (Aggro is too fast, matchups feel too lopsided, Control is currently just the worse option on ladder); he's not incorrect in wanting to move on to a game that operates in a way he enjoys, but you have to realize the flaws you perceive in the game are most likely viewed as strengths by the playerbase if it's still thriving. Sometimes you're better off moving on than waiting for a game to change course from a path it's been clearly aiming for since launch; I can't go to a Chinese restaurant and expect tacos on the menu generally, and that's how it feels when people keep lobbying for a less-proactive game in HS. 

Quote from Tze >>

 

In regards to the idea that there are "fundamental flaws" in the game, I can concede it's not perfect but for the most part if an emphasis on proactive strategies or fast games are not what you're looking for in a game then you should consider that the game's core design has really never been aimed at you. I had an hour and a half conversation with a friend of mine who's quit the game to play Eternal because he shares the same opinion (Aggro is too fast, matchups feel too lopsided, Control is currently just the worse option on ladder); he's not incorrect in wanting to move on to a game that operates in a way he enjoys, but you have to realize the flaws you perceive in the game are most likely viewed as strengths by the playerbase if it's still thriving. Sometimes you're better off moving on than waiting for a game to change course from a path it's been clearly aiming for since launch; I can't go to a Chinese restaurant and expect tacos on the menu generally, and that's how it feels when people keep lobbying for a less-proactive game in HS. 

@nocontrol1111; I agree, I really like that this game feels proactive (and that's probably why I'm one of the biggest supporters of cards like Jade Idol existing). Compare this to MTG/Eternal where blocker decides where your guys attack and it just feels like you spend significantly more time drawing and waiting for a big swing turn to really be able to push tempo; it's not that either game is poorly designed, just that they're differently designed and I think that just appeals to people differently. 

The thing is, people don't like their favorite decks being out of favor; I totally get that, and I can empathize with how that can feel really bad for people who really enjoy the deck that's put in a bad spot. I can even empathize with people who got into the game and enjoyed one meta, but then had the next meta or design direction end up being something they absolutely did not enjoy. Both of these things however are just the reality of card games.

Quote from Tze >>

@nocontrol1111; I agree, I really like that this game feels proactive (and that's probably why I'm one of the biggest supporters of cards like Jade Idol existing). Compare this to MTG/Eternal where blocker decides where your guys attack and it just feels like you spend significantly more time drawing and waiting for a big swing turn to really be able to push tempo; it's not that either game is poorly designed, just that they're differently designed and I think that just appeals to people differently. 

The thing is, people don't like their favorite decks being out of favor; I totally get that, and I can empathize with how that can feel really bad for people who really enjoy the deck that's put in a bad spot. I can even empathize with people who got into the game and enjoyed one meta, but then had the next meta or design direction end up being something they absolutely did not enjoy. Both of these things however are just the reality of card games.

I actually think the whole "Jade Concept" has completely broken any other possibility of late game control cards and destroyed some of my favorite decks.  I spent the last couple weeks trying many versions of non-Jade control Druid and control Warrior and got beaten to the point where I threw in the towel and gave up on the game for a while.  The meta sucks because your Brawl & Starfalls really don't do jack when they drop a 4/4 and a 5/5.  Then next turn they drop a 6/6, 7/7...  it's completely degernate as game goes on that any classic "big creature" strategies you almost have to completely retire, and much of these were my favorite cards from the past.

There's only 2 kinds of exceptions:  the pirate decks that can just outrace it, a lot of the ppl here playing those decks saying "Jade sucks" cause of that, and the second are the Dragon Priests.  Dragon Priests are an exception 'cause they have some of the strongest on-curve creatures in the game, best removal/Sweeper in the game currently, and virtually half their cards discover and replace themself.  Some of the other classes might have a couple 1 or 2 drops that can do that but not quite as good as Priest.  I just wanted to address the exceptions.

My last point of why the Jade idol and mechanic is bad for the game is that it requires virtually no critical thinking.  This is a big problem for a strategy card game.  There's no targeting and decision making when I lose to these guys, I might have to make several tough decisions as the game goes on in a Control Warrior vs Jade Druid matchup throughout the game yet all they do is just draw cards and keep throwing out jades till they overwhelm me, and as game goes on they'll win attrition war almost 95% of the time.  I remember a game I threw out a Sylvannas then followed up with a Brawl, got an excellent Brawl on his Jade totems... still lost the game, that's how ridiculously powerful it is when they're dropping 7/7, 8/8, etc. each turn.

Quote from JARY >>

I actually think the whole "Jade Concept" has completely broken any other possibility of late game control cards and destroyed some of my favorite decks.  I spent the last couple weeks trying many versions of non-Jade control Druid and control Warrior and got beaten to the point where I threw in the towel and gave up on the game for a while.  The meta sucks because your Brawl & Starfalls really don't do jack when they drop a 4/4 and a 5/5.  Then next turn they drop a 6/6, 7/7...  it's completely degernate as game goes on that any classic "big creature" strategies you almost have to completely retire, and much of these were my favorite cards from the past.

Before MSoG, One could argue that N'Zoth or Anyfin Can Happen had a similar effect of getting the upper hand late game agaisnt a strategy of "dropping 6+ minions"

Quote from JARY >>

I actually think the whole "Jade Concept" has completely broken any other possibility of late game control cards and destroyed some of my favorite decks.  I spent the last couple weeks trying many versions of non-Jade control Druid and control Warrior and got beaten to the point where I threw in the towel and gave up on the game for a while.  The meta sucks because your Brawl & Starfalls really don't do jack when they drop a 4/4 and a 5/5.  Then next turn they drop a 6/6, 7/7...  it's completely degernate as game goes on that any classic "big creature" strategies you almost have to completely retire, and much of these were my favorite cards from the past.

There's only 2 kinds of exceptions:  the pirate decks that can just outrace it, a lot of the ppl here playing those decks saying "Jade sucks" cause of that, and the second are the Dragon Priests.  Dragon Priests are an exception 'cause they have some of the strongest on-curve creatures in the game, best removal/Sweeper in the game currently, and virtually half their cards discover and replace themself.  Some of the other classes might have a couple 1 or 2 drops that can do that but not quite as good as Priest.  I just wanted to address the exceptions.

My last point of why the Jade idol and mechanic is bad for the game is that it requires virtually no critical thinking.  This is a big problem for a strategy card game.  There's no targeting and decision making when I lose to these guys, I might have to make several tough decisions as the game goes on in a Control Warrior vs Jade Druid matchup throughout the game yet all they do is just draw cards and keep throwing out jades till they overwhelm me, and as game goes on they'll win attrition war almost 95% of the time.  I remember a game I threw out a Sylvannas then followed up with a Brawl, got an excellent Brawl on his Jade totems... still lost the game, that's how ridiculously powerful it is when they're dropping 7/7, 8/8, etc. each turn.

Why are people posting here control is most prevalent followed by aggro followed by midrange and weird rogue stuff. All beat druid often enough the deck sucks

I don't want to nerf this card, i want to buff it without making it so broken. So here's the solution for the whiners, based on my belief that the card is NOT fine because it stagnates a control and midrange meta - which is not the case right now, since there's so much aggro.

JADE IDOL - Summon a Jade Golem AND shuffle 1 copy of this in your opponent's deck.

Now it can gimp opponent's draw, though not in a excessive way, can go back to droods deck for more Jade Golems, but it can be controled by the opponent. This so means that playing a turn 1 jade idol is not so bad anymore, jade mirrors are more exciting, and overall the deck gets a boost. Playing a 1/1 instead of getting a crucial card in a non jade deck isn't that good, right?

Quote from ChickenwithOkra >>

I don't want to nerf this card, i want to buff it without making it so broken. So here's the solution for the whiners, based on my belief that the card is NOT fine because it stagnates a control and midrange meta - which is not the case right now, since there's so much aggro.

JADE IDOL - Summon a Jade Golem AND shuffle 1 copy of this in your opponent's deck.

Now it can gimp opponent's draw, though not in a excessive way, can go back to droods deck for more Jade Golems, but it can be controled by the opponent. This so means that playing a turn 1 jade idol is not so bad anymore, jade mirrors are more exciting, and overall the deck gets a boost. Playing a 1/1 instead of getting a crucial card in a non jade deck isn't that good, right?

Quote from mert41994 >>

distrupts your card draws. Not really as good as good you think.

Quote from Pham >>

Quote from mert41994 >>

distrupts your card draws. Not really as good as good you think.

Fandral Staghelm

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from Pham >>

Quote from mert41994 >>

distrupts your card draws. Not really as good as good you think.

Fandral Staghelm

 That's not actually a counterargument. Shuffling Jade Idol too soon will make it harder to find Fandral, too.

But this does hint at the actual counterargument, which is: It won't disrupt your draws if used correctly. Don't shuffle it until later in the game, when fatigue is approaching and you've already used the other heavy hitters in your deck. Of course, it's almost never wrong to play a card augmented by Fandral, so I'd be willing to bend this guideline if he's on board.

Quote from FortyDust >>

Quote from Pham >>

Quote from mert41994 >>

distrupts your card draws. Not really as good as good you think.

Fandral Staghelm

 That's not actually a counterargument. Shuffling Jade Idol too soon will make it harder to find Fandral, too.

But this does hint at the actual counterargument, which is: It won't disrupt your draws if used correctly. Don't shuffle it until later in the game, when fatigue is approaching and you've already used the other heavy hitters in your deck. Of course, it's almost never wrong to play a card augmented by Fandral, so I'd be willing to bend this guideline if he's on board.

-yawns-

I love this card in Arena though. Everytime I face a Druid there's like about a good chance some scrub will use it on early turns to activate gang up instead of understanding the definition of tempo. Free wins are gr8 m8.

While I agree that Druid does to Control what Control does to Aggro, the W/L ratio is varied greatly. Jade will beat control a majority of the time because of how slow it is. But control isn't an easy match against Aggro. If you don't draw your board clear and Reno its gg. Pirate Warrior is very strong in the regard that it can beat down any deck on the meta if you can't answer it quick enough. Jade druid with eat your control deck unless you can curve out perfectly and go face before they start dropping the big golems, which honestly is just not going to happen. Even Dragon Priest can have a problem against Jade Druid if they don't curve out well and they're a midrange deck (albeit a slow midrange deck)

All in all I think it's good that something keeps the meta in check, which the two aforementioned decks do (PW and JD) but I will be the first to admit that queuing into an almost unwinnable match is a downer

Quote from KennyOath >>

While I agree that Druid does to Control what Control does to Aggro, the W/L ratio is varied greatly. Jade will beat control a majority of the time because of how slow it is. But control isn't an easy match against Aggro. If you don't draw your board clear and Reno its gg. Pirate Warrior is very strong in the regard that it can beat down any deck on the meta if you can't answer it quick enough. Jade druid with eat your control deck unless you can curve out perfectly and go face before they start dropping the big golems, which honestly is just not going to happen. Even Dragon Priest can have a problem against Jade Druid if they don't curve out well and they're a midrange deck (albeit a slow midrange deck)

All in all I think it's good that something keeps the meta in check, which the two aforementioned decks do (PW and JD) but I will be the first to admit that queuing into an almost unwinnable match is a downer

I have played a lot of jade druid recently and yes, if you can get the Combos going in the endgame, WHILE YOU HAVE ENOUGH HEALTH, you are very likely to win the game. Period.

At the same time this deck is extremely vulnerable against aggressive and Combo decks. Against Combo (roque for instance) it has no good way for defending against conceal Combos and if you loose to much life early on you are dead. Against aggro it struggles to Keep the board clear all the time and without a good swipe you will be in Trouble.

Basically jade druid is one of the most opening dependend decks out there. If you manage to get to the midgame without you being below 20 health and your Opponent having a big board you are golden, otherwise you will usually be in a rough spot.

Overall, while it is easy to lable this Card as op, the deck, which  contains it is not and has a lot of weak spots that can be exploited.