So, I've been wondering about this for a while now and I can't come up with the answer.
My question is: why does everyone play Shadowstep in Tempo Rogue decks? I mean, besides the obvious Keleseth / Leroy + Shadowstep combos I don't really see many good uses for it. I've been playing without it for quite a while and I managed to get to legend so I guess it works?
It used to sit dead in my hand most of the games and when I did use it, it always felt underwhelming. It's seems so situational and there are better cards that can be used to replace it. I haven't had any trouble finishing games, don't seem to lack the damage from Leroy + Shadowstep, Kele + Shadowstep happens so rarely (getting Kele in the first turns is already hard enough, even when you hard mulligan for it) that it seems to hardly matter. Kele on turn 2 is good enough already anyway, no need for Shadowstep.
So, what are Shadowstep's other good uses? All the other combinations with Tempo Rogue's minions seem kinda meh, except for maybe Vilespine Slayer. Or Edwin VanCleef... Or maybe SI:7 Agent. Eh... Situational.
Please enlighten me, share your opinion, prove I'm wrong, something like that. I need to understand what's so good (or not) about this card. After 200ish games with the deck (and several variations) I still don't understand. Does it really increase the deck's overall winrate more than other possible cards?
You just mentioned 5 uses for a 0 cost card. Also it has other situational uses besides that. It has a good chance to have value for literally no mana so why not?
Let's put it this way: If you don't think it's good, take it out for something else. Do you now win more? If so, good, you are smarter than every other HearthStone player. If you don't, then put them back in.
5 potential uses are typically enough to justify running acard. Brann Bronzebeard was often run just to get value off of one card, same premise.
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In non-tempo Rogue, you can Shadowstep your N'Zoth, the Corruptor on the same turn you play him, securing him in your hand for reuse. Shadowstep can also serve as "heal" of sorts, if you want to keep your Arcane Giant around for a while longer.
Overall, it can be conditional, but it's a very good card.
leeroy and keleseth can both win you the game if shadowstepped. in addition to the other synergies mentioned earlier, i've found it can be great with bonemare, even. i've considered going down to one copy, but it's crazy not to run at least one when there are so many possible powerful play.
You just mentioned 5 uses for a 0 cost card. Also it has other situational uses besides that. It has a good chance to have value for literally no mana so why not?
In a way Shadowstep isn't a 0 mana card though, because you still have to pay for thr minion again at some point (albeit discounted). If you can't afford tp replay the card on the same turn, you're going to lose those stats on the board which can be a big tempo loss.
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On the third day before Witchwood, Blizzard gave to me,
You just mentioned 5 uses for a 0 cost card. Also it has other situational uses besides that. It has a good chance to have value for literally no mana so why not?
In a way Shadowstep isn't a 0 mana card though, because you still have to pay for thr minion again at some point (albeit discounted). If you can't afford tp replay the card on the same turn, you're going to lose those stats on the board which can be a big tempo loss.
Normally the only cards you would ever step and keep in hand are those that have effects on them. The only real time you step a minion that has no effect is when it was perhaps used to bump off another minion and it's health is very low that you feel it won;t survive into the next turn. It was mentioned above and it's worth repeating. If there is even a one card combo that will significantly increase your chances to win the game it's worth having them in deck.
Deck winrate (for decks which include Shadowstep) = 54.7%
Played winrate (avg WR of games where it was played) = 51.9%
What to make of these numbers? IMHO, while it makes sense to run Shadowstep (played wr > 50%), the card may not be the strongest contributor to the deck power (played wr < deck wr) so one could consider cutting it as well.
You just mentioned 5 uses for a 0 cost card. Also it has other situational uses besides that. It has a good chance to have value for literally no mana so why not?
In a way Shadowstep isn't a 0 mana card though, because you still have to pay for thr minion again at some point (albeit discounted). If you can't afford tp replay the card on the same turn, you're going to lose those stats on the board which can be a big tempo loss.
Normally the only cards you would ever step and keep in hand are those that have effects on them. The only real time you step a minion that has no effect is when it was perhaps used to bump off another minion and it's health is very low that you feel it won;t survive into the next turn. It was mentioned above and it's worth repeating. If there is even a one card combo that will significantly increase your chances to win the game it's worth having them in deck.
I know that you wanna Shadowstep minions with effects, but even those minions have stats. For example Shadowstepping an SI:7 Agent for an extra combo effect costs 1 mana for 2 damage, so it isn't really free and 1 mana deal 2 isn't all that amazing of a card either.
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On the third day before Witchwood, Blizzard gave to me,
You just mentioned 5 uses for a 0 cost card. Also it has other situational uses besides that. It has a good chance to have value for literally no mana so why not?
Disclaimer: Text below is just my opinion, not fact. Though, I could be right. Or wrong... :p
Yes, the card has its uses, however they are situational (I'd rather opt for consistency):
-Combined with SI:7, it's basically a 1 mana deal 2 damage. Meh...; -With Leroy, the opponent needs to have 12 health (or 18, and you need Leroy + 2x Shadowstep in hand, that's 3 useless cards in hand during early - midgame that could instead have been minions used to further your own agenda instead of hoping to get the opponent to 18 health to finish him off); -With Keleseth, you need to have both cards in your hand by turn 2 - 3 for it to be effective; -With Vilespine, it basically requires the opponent to have 2 decent sized minions on board and you need 8 - 9 mana to use it on the same turn, and, with Tempo Rogue, you generally want to win around turn 7 - 8 as your odds of winning tend to decrease the longer the game goes on, exception being against another fast deck but then why would you want to spend around 9 mana to kill 2 minions? Of course you can simply Vilespine + Shadowstep and return it to your hand but then you have 1 less minion on board; -With Edwin it's basically a 1 cost +2/+2 buff.
Do you think those situations are worth having 2 bad (IMO) cards in a deck that has no draw? Shadowstep makes sense in Miracle Rogue because it has so much draw it usually doesn't matter if you draw them early and have no use for them. It's also part of Miracle's win condition so it makes sense to have them.
5 potential uses are typically enough to justify running acard. Brann Bronzebeard was often run just to get value off of one card, same premise.
Brann counted as a minion meaning he could be played for tempo on turn 3, if you really needed, which also meant the opponent had to get rid of it immediately, otherwise they'd risk losing the game right then and there. Also, it was a one of, not 2 and was mostly used in control decks. It's also a neutral card. Something else to keep in mind is that Shadowstep tipically results in card disadvantage (from experience) while Brann does not. Brann seems so much more versatile than Shadowstep.
Thanks for reading and for the replies guys, keep em' coming. Anyone else share the same opinion as me? Stancifka made a Rogue that has no Shadowsteps (and got to Legend 1!) so at least I know I'm not alone. :p
I would want to see a source of card draw in place of the Shadowsteps, but I struggle to find any good option maybe other than Fan of Knives or so.
I tried card draw too but it didn't work out for me either. I thought of Fan of Knives too but there aren't many 1/1's around and it's kinda slow. Thought of Mimic Pod but found it inconsistent (fun though). The other options don't seem very good and are mostly too slow. I don't know if there is room for card draw in Tempo Rogue.
For the current meta I'm facing, I replaced 2x Shadowstep with 2x Saronite Chain Gang (good for board presence, trading, protecting minions and when buffed by Keleseth is insane), and 1x Cold Blood with 1x Deadly Poison (great against Zoo which I've been fighting a lot lately. It's also good against other faster decks).
There are a LOT of other options which is why I wanted input on this subject. Deck list below for reference, 50 games this season which started at rank 16, so they were played mostly against people that finished the previous season at rank 2 - legend. I know 50 games isn't a lot but it's just uhh... illustrative. : )
Deck winrate (for decks which include Shadowstep) = 54.7%
Played winrate (avg WR of games where it was played) = 51.9%
What to make of these numbers? IMHO, while it makes sense to run Shadowstep (played wr > 50%), the card may not be the strongest contributor to the deck power (played wr < deck wr) so one could consider cutting it as well.
interesting. i will say - i've lost games when i've shadowstepped (or double shadowstepped) keleseth just because it winds up being a huge tempo hit (especially on say, turn 4), and you lose out on a lot of resources. when all you can do on turn six is hero power and drop a 3/4 firefly, you 're probably gonna lose.
You just mentioned 5 uses for a 0 cost card. Also it has other situational uses besides that. It has a good chance to have value for literally no mana so why not?
In a way Shadowstep isn't a 0 mana card though, because you still have to pay for thr minion again at some point (albeit discounted). If you can't afford tp replay the card on the same turn, you're going to lose those stats on the board which can be a big tempo loss.
Normally the only cards you would ever step and keep in hand are those that have effects on them. The only real time you step a minion that has no effect is when it was perhaps used to bump off another minion and it's health is very low that you feel it won;t survive into the next turn. It was mentioned above and it's worth repeating. If there is even a one card combo that will significantly increase your chances to win the game it's worth having them in deck.
I know that you wanna Shadowstep minions with effects, but even those minions have stats. For example Shadowstepping an SI:7 Agent for an extra combo effect costs 1 mana for 2 damage, so it isn't really free and 1 mana deal 2 isn't all that amazing of a card either.
True which is why a good player would normally never step say an SI agent. the payoff is to small but something like a Vilespine slayer with cheaper cost not has superior added value for more removal in future turns. that is the REAL value a card like step gives on top of the game winning combos in the deck.
You just mentioned 5 uses for a 0 cost card. Also it has other situational uses besides that. It has a good chance to have value for literally no mana so why not?
In a way Shadowstep isn't a 0 mana card though, because you still have to pay for thr minion again at some point (albeit discounted). If you can't afford tp replay the card on the same turn, you're going to lose those stats on the board which can be a big tempo loss.
Normally the only cards you would ever step and keep in hand are those that have effects on them. The only real time you step a minion that has no effect is when it was perhaps used to bump off another minion and it's health is very low that you feel it won;t survive into the next turn. It was mentioned above and it's worth repeating. If there is even a one card combo that will significantly increase your chances to win the game it's worth having them in deck.
I know that you wanna Shadowstep minions with effects, but even those minions have stats. For example Shadowstepping an SI:7 Agent for an extra combo effect costs 1 mana for 2 damage, so it isn't really free and 1 mana deal 2 isn't all that amazing of a card either.
True which is why a good player would normally never step say an SI agent. the payoff is to small but something like a Vilespine slayer with cheaper cost not has superior added value for more removal in future turns. that is the REAL value a card like step gives on top of the game winning combos in the deck.
there are times when shadowstepping si7 is the absolute correct move, though - say, t4 backstab/si/shadowstep/si to wipe out a threatening board against token druid, or for emergency single target removal when you don't have vilespine in hand. you generally want to save shadowstep for higher priority targets, but SI still has a very powerful battlecry for a deck that's built around holding the board.
you just said it, why play shadowstep in TEMPO rogue decks.
because shadowstep is extreme tempo value. You can trade if you need to and bounce it back full health, and also of course the obvious good targets for it : keleseth etc.
Shadowstep on hsreply is currently 17th in Rogue cards with 52% winrate, so it seems it doesn't perform bad, but I also feel that is somehow doesn't suit best in that deck, Cold Blood seems to be more useful.
Some people have actually cut it, especially the lists running Golakka Crawlers and Eviserates. Shadowstep is decent but yeah, mostly situational, sometimes it can be a bit of a dead card and you very rarely get the prince+shadowstep off despite what people think.. and the only time you really want to do that is on turn 2 anyway otherwise you barely have enough time to get the value.
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So, I've been wondering about this for a while now and I can't come up with the answer.
My question is: why does everyone play Shadowstep in Tempo Rogue decks? I mean, besides the obvious Keleseth / Leroy + Shadowstep combos I don't really see many good uses for it. I've been playing without it for quite a while and I managed to get to legend so I guess it works?
It used to sit dead in my hand most of the games and when I did use it, it always felt underwhelming. It's seems so situational and there are better cards that can be used to replace it. I haven't had any trouble finishing games, don't seem to lack the damage from Leroy + Shadowstep, Kele + Shadowstep happens so rarely (getting Kele in the first turns is already hard enough, even when you hard mulligan for it) that it seems to hardly matter. Kele on turn 2 is good enough already anyway, no need for Shadowstep.
So, what are Shadowstep's other good uses? All the other combinations with Tempo Rogue's minions seem kinda meh, except for maybe Vilespine Slayer. Or Edwin VanCleef... Or maybe SI:7 Agent. Eh... Situational.
Please enlighten me, share your opinion, prove I'm wrong, something like that. I need to understand what's so good (or not) about this card. After 200ish games with the deck (and several variations) I still don't understand. Does it really increase the deck's overall winrate more than other possible cards?
I honestly don't miss the card in my deck...
You just mentioned 5 uses for a 0 cost card. Also it has other situational uses besides that. It has a good chance to have value for literally no mana so why not?
Let's put it this way: If you don't think it's good, take it out for something else. Do you now win more? If so, good, you are smarter than every other HearthStone player. If you don't, then put them back in.
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5 potential uses are typically enough to justify running acard. Brann Bronzebeard was often run just to get value off of one card, same premise.
Leroy, Shadowstep, Leroy.
Combo activator, Vilespine, Shadowstep, Vilespine.
Keleseth, Shadowstep, Keleseth.
In non-tempo Rogue, you can Shadowstep your N'Zoth, the Corruptor on the same turn you play him, securing him in your hand for reuse. Shadowstep can also serve as "heal" of sorts, if you want to keep your Arcane Giant around for a while longer.
Overall, it can be conditional, but it's a very good card.
leeroy and keleseth can both win you the game if shadowstepped. in addition to the other synergies mentioned earlier, i've found it can be great with bonemare, even. i've considered going down to one copy, but it's crazy not to run at least one when there are so many possible powerful play.
On the third day before Witchwood, Blizzard gave to me,
three Handlock decks,
two Molten Giants
and a winstreak to Legend Rank #3
Disclaimer: This is a fictional poem and this didn't actually happen to me.
Checking today https://hsreplay.net/cards/#text=shadowstep we get this data:
What to make of these numbers? IMHO, while it makes sense to run Shadowstep (played wr > 50%), the card may not be the strongest contributor to the deck power (played wr < deck wr) so one could consider cutting it as well.
After all, as they say in https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-69/#Rogue, "Tempo Rogue is an extremely versatile and flexible archetype, which has proven to be powerful through many different build directions." ;)
On the third day before Witchwood, Blizzard gave to me,
three Handlock decks,
two Molten Giants
and a winstreak to Legend Rank #3
Disclaimer: This is a fictional poem and this didn't actually happen to me.
Disclaimer: Text below is just my opinion, not fact. Though, I could be right. Or wrong... :p
Yes, the card has its uses, however they are situational (I'd rather opt for consistency):
-Combined with SI:7, it's basically a 1 mana deal 2 damage. Meh...;
-With Leroy, the opponent needs to have 12 health (or 18, and you need Leroy + 2x Shadowstep in hand, that's 3 useless cards in hand during early - midgame that could instead have been minions used to further your own agenda instead of hoping to get the opponent to 18 health to finish him off);
-With Keleseth, you need to have both cards in your hand by turn 2 - 3 for it to be effective;
-With Vilespine, it basically requires the opponent to have 2 decent sized minions on board and you need 8 - 9 mana to use it on the same turn, and, with Tempo Rogue, you generally want to win around turn 7 - 8 as your odds of winning tend to decrease the longer the game goes on, exception being against another fast deck but then why would you want to spend around 9 mana to kill 2 minions? Of course you can simply Vilespine + Shadowstep and return it to your hand but then you have 1 less minion on board;
-With Edwin it's basically a 1 cost +2/+2 buff.
Do you think those situations are worth having 2 bad (IMO) cards in a deck that has no draw? Shadowstep makes sense in Miracle Rogue because it has so much draw it usually doesn't matter if you draw them early and have no use for them. It's also part of Miracle's win condition so it makes sense to have them.
Brann counted as a minion meaning he could be played for tempo on turn 3, if you really needed, which also meant the opponent had to get rid of it immediately, otherwise they'd risk losing the game right then and there. Also, it was a one of, not 2 and was mostly used in control decks. It's also a neutral card. Something else to keep in mind is that Shadowstep tipically results in card disadvantage (from experience) while Brann does not. Brann seems so much more versatile than Shadowstep.
Thanks for reading and for the replies guys, keep em' coming. Anyone else share the same opinion as me? Stancifka made a Rogue that has no Shadowsteps (and got to Legend 1!) so at least I know I'm not alone. :p
I would want to see a source of card draw in place of the Shadowsteps, but I struggle to find any good option maybe other than Fan of Knives or so.
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you just said it, why play shadowstep in TEMPO rogue decks.
because shadowstep is extreme tempo value. You can trade if you need to and bounce it back full health, and also of course the obvious good targets for it : keleseth etc.
I run a least one shadowstep in all rogue decks, don't matter if is tempo/jade/control/meme/etc...
It is one of most powerful cards in the game.
Shadowstep on hsreply is currently 17th in Rogue cards with 52% winrate, so it seems it doesn't perform bad, but I also feel that is somehow doesn't suit best in that deck, Cold Blood seems to be more useful.
Some people have actually cut it, especially the lists running Golakka Crawlers and Eviserates. Shadowstep is decent but yeah, mostly situational, sometimes it can be a bit of a dead card and you very rarely get the prince+shadowstep off despite what people think.. and the only time you really want to do that is on turn 2 anyway otherwise you barely have enough time to get the value.