To put all my previous questions in a simpler way:
What card do you keep vs paladin?
If your starting hand has 2 Bluegill Warriors, keep one, both, or none?
What if you have 2 cards you don't ever want to keep and a Warleader? do you keep it?
Do you keep Old Murk-Eye with The Coin? or it depends on other cards?
If I do not have coin, I try to go for that 1/2/3 or 2/3/4 perfect curve. Occasionally i'll make exceptions like if I have 2 shielded minibots i'll keep both simply because the card is so good. I'll also keep a consecration against paladin without coin. If I have two Bluegills I'll typically throw one away. My key mulligan cards are Chow/Juggler/Minibot/Muster/Peacekeeper. My circumstantial mulligan cards are Warleader/Bluegill/Truesilver/Coghammer/Consecration/Shredder/Old Merc-eye. The circumstances vary based on the matchup and what deck i believe I'm running into.
Let's say your only good card is Old Murc-Eye. I've debating keeping Old Murc-Eye with coin, I don't think it's a good long term move. I'd rather take the gamble on getting a key mulligan card like a chow or juggler or minibot. Now obvoiusly if the rest of your cards are good and you have a 1/2/3 or a 1/2/2 curve going, of course keep him.
My key mulligan cards are Chow/Juggler/Minibot/Muster/Peacekeeper. My circumstantial mulligan cards are Warleader/Bluegill/Truesilver/Coghammer/Consecration/Shredder/Old Merc-eye. The circumstances vary based on the matchup and what deck i believe I'm running into.
What are "the circumstances" when you mulligan vs paladin?
My key mulligan cards are Chow/Juggler/Minibot/Muster/Peacekeeper. My circumstantial mulligan cards are Warleader/Bluegill/Truesilver/Coghammer/Consecration/Shredder/Old Merc-eye. The circumstances vary based on the matchup and what deck i believe I'm running into.
What are "the circumstances" when you mulligan vs paladin?
So vs Paladin, it's usually Secret. Sometimes it's mid range or fin. But regardless, I need to get early board control to win the game. Let's start by focusing on early game plays and combos that gain board control. Turn 1 Zombie chow, or even better. Turn 1 (with coin) 2x Zombie Chow. That's a the best possible start you can have. The second best possible start you can possibly have would be turn 1 (coin) Shielded Minibot and then follow it up with turn 2 Shielded Minibot. And probably the third best start you can possibly have would be turn 1 Zombie Chow and turn 2 Shielded Minibot.
Vs Paladin NO Coin: Primary goal is to get a Chow, Minibot, Juggler, Muster, Peacekeeper. Don't keep any 4 drops ever here except Consecration. The only time i'll keep a 4 drop is if I have a 1/2/3/4 or a 2/3/4 going perfectly. But often times i'll take a hard look at my 4 drop and say "Would I rather throw this away and try to get a zombie chow?". I'll never keep a Warleader unless I have a 1 or a 2 drop to play first. I will keep a Bluegill here against paladin if I believe it's a Secret Paladin (if I'm running into a lot of them or if I know this opponent plays secret paladin). Bluegill trades into Secret Keeper and Juggler very well and catches them by surprise.
Vs Paladin WITH Coin: Mostly same as NO coin here, but I'm more lenient to curve because I have a coin to smooth it out. I'll usually always keep two 2 mana minions because I can play one of them on turn 1. For example, always keep Juggler and Minibot, or always keep 2x Minibot. BUT I will not keep two Bluegills because they only have 1 health and are not my ideal turn 2 play. I'll throw away that 2nd Bluegill and try to get a chow or something. I'll even keep two Musters here with coin just because it's so good. But do try to play around consecration. Don't just blindly turn 2 (coin) Muster and then turn 3 Muster because your turn 4 may be ugly when they Consecrate you. BUT if you turn 2 (coin) Muster and then on turn 3 trade all your 1/1's then of course play the second muster on turn 3 to get board again.
I'll only keep Keeper of Uldaman in a mulligan if I have a perfect 1/2/3 hand. Because if turn 4 comes and Keeper of Uldaman is my only 4 mana card and I do not have board control I can't play her! Becuase i'll be forced to buff my opponents minion if they (Paladin) have all tokens or worse than 3/3 stat cards. So Keeping Keeper of Uldaman in a mulligan is not ideal. I'd rather keep a Shredder or Truesilver or even an Old Merc-eye if I have the ideal 1/2/3 or 2/3/4 lined up.
So you keep Consecration only with The Coin vs Paladin? That's good to know, thank you.
Another thing is do you ever keep Equality? I feel like there are match-ups, especially warlock zoo, where you need Equality very early, cause of Sea Giants and 5/5 Reliquary Seekers?
and Aldor Peacekeeper is not a good solution, since often they will just Defender of Argus 1/8 and play another 5/5 Reliquary Seekers or even another Sea Giant.
eadric the pure works well to save you for a turn or two when you have lost the board..... to last to turn 10 to play anyfin. If you don't have him DR. Boom would work ok or maybe a second enter the coliseum
Building a midrange anyfin otk deck does make literally no sense.Midrange Paladin is one of the strongest decks why would you ever ruin it with random murloc Cards? Why the hell should you play cards like Dr. Boom/Tirionetc. in an anyfin paladin? It does not support the gameplan at all. (Almost) No deck survives anyfin into anyfin so just try to make this happen very consistently.
There are already very finetuned versions of otk Paladin, if you are not able to get legend with them its certainly not the builds fault. And if you will get legend eventually with your midrange anyfin deck than it is most likely because of variance/time-investment not because its more efficient at what it should do.
My advice: Just play some of the otk decks here on hearthpwn. Tinker with your ideas when you are legend but dont sabotage yourself while climbing.
I refuse to do the whole "Play a good deck until you reach legend and then once you get legend play for fun". I'm playing for fun now. If I wanted to reach legend as fast as possible i'd be playing Secret Paladin and wouldn't be messing around with Anyfin. I've made legend before, i'm not interested in climbing as fast as possible.
I'm interested in making an awesome Anyfin deck and I really like combing Mid Range Paladin's board control techniques with Anyfin's OTK. Look at decks like OTK Reno. It's taking a deck like Renolock and adding Leeroy + Faceless + a few more support cards to make an OTK. That's basically what I'm doing here. Taking an already good deck, Mid Range Paladin, and giving it an OTK
So you keep Consecration only with The Coin vs Paladin? That's good to know, thank you.
Another thing is do you ever keep Equality? I feel like there are match-ups, especially warlock zoo, where you need Equality very early, cause of Sea Giants and 5/5 Reliquary Seekers?
and Aldor Peacekeeper is not a good solution, since often they will just Defender of Argus 1/8 and play another 5/5 Reliquary Seekers or even another Sea Giant.
That's actually a mistake or typo. I keep consecration always vs Paladin even without coin. In this deck I only run one single equality so I need to make my AOE count. But the deck is all about board control so in a perfect world you never lose board control and never need to re-take it back (but we all know perfect games are rare).
I never keep Equality. I only keep cards I'm looking to play in turns 1 through 3 or possibly turn 4.
Aldor Peacekeeper is a great solution. The worst thing that happens is they taunt or silence it. Remember, the goal of this deck is board control. So if you're board is empty and theirs is full then you're either running really bad or you're doing something wrong. So if you can shrink a Sea Giant to a 1/8 he's much easier to deal with for all off your minions.
How is Eadric the Pure in that deck? What could I substitute it with if I don't have it?
It's good. You are dropping big body and removing threats. It can also answer single target threat, like Dr. Boom (but beware that silence removes this effect).
Enter the Coliseum isn't doing the same. Unlike Eadric, it doesn't get rid of biggest threat, but rather save it and removes the rest. I'm trying to run Doomsayer instead of it now.
For substitution - you probably don't have the direct one (nothing else acts as pseudo AoE-clear). You should put anything control-ish, like Refreshment Vendor or Doomsayer, to survive till next equality+pyro/consec or OTK.
Building a midrange anyfin otk deck does make literally no sense.Midrange Paladin is one of the strongest decks why would you ever ruin it with random murloc Cards? Why the hell should you play cards like Dr. Boom/Tirionetc. in an anyfin paladin? It does not support the gameplan at all. (Almost) No deck survives anyfin into anyfin so just try to make this happen very consistently.
There are already very finetuned versions of otk Paladin, if you are not able to get legend with them its certainly not the builds fault. And if you will get legend eventually with your midrange anyfin deck than it is most likely because of variance/time-investment not because its more efficient at what it should do.
My advice: Just play some of the otk decks here on hearthpwn. Tinker with your ideas when you are legend but dont sabotage yourself while climbing.
I refuse to do the whole "Play a good deck until you reach legend and then once you get legend play for fun". I'm playing for fun now. If I wanted to reach legend as fast as possible i'd be playing Secret Paladin and wouldn't be messing around with Anyfin. I've made legend before, i'm not interested in climbing as fast as possible.
I'm interested in making an awesome Anyfin deck and I really like combing Mid Range Paladin's board control techniques with Anyfin's OTK. Look at decks like OTK Reno. It's taking a deck like Renolock and adding Leeroy + Faceless + a few more support cards to make an OTK. That's basically what I'm doing here. Taking an already good deck, Mid Range Paladin, and giving it an OTK
The Renolock comparison isnt a good one though. Renolock without Combo is as good as Renolock with Combo, and including the faceless+whatever charger doesnt make the deck worse. Its just a metacall because OTKísh renodecks are favored in the mirror for example.That you choose this anology already tells me a lot.
If you want to add OTK in midrange Paladin this is just a poor idea (at least in the form of murloc otk, a Little burst in midrange would actually add the element of surprise and might be beneficial/good idea). OTK Paladin decks already use all the control tools that are in midrange Paladin but dont run unneccessary garbage that doesnt support the decks theme like muster for battle. Adding anyfin pieces makes midrange paladin worse in probably every matchup and overall weakens the archetype (which is not the case in reno otk lock).
Anyway its just my opinion. I played Anyfin a lot on legend ladder and in midrange it just doesnt reach its full potential and makes no sense ( I never was a fan of multiple winconditions in a deck that runs a very strong combo) Didnt you ask in the beginning how to improve the deck ? I would assume any form of improvement makes the deck more similar to what we already have.
I understand you want to merge what you like about midrange Paladin with Anyfin, but again your gameplan seems so clunky. What does midrange Paladin do ? Its very consistent and can curve out super strong to fight for board and never lose it. Then slams some big threats to close out the game. What will happen if you add murlocs ? 1.Your curve gets messy 2. midrange paldin runs not much draw, so anyfin will most likely not be played on turn 10? So you play a midrange deck which cant even utilize its combo on turn 10 on average ? Midrange paldin is actually a pretty fast deck ( thats why we call it midrange) because it can end games turn 7-10.
Please give me a decent argument how murlocs fit in this archetype ( beside fun. For me playing something that feels strange wouldnt be fun anyway)
No comparison is perfect dude. Stop over analyzing a comparison for the purpose of nit picking.
I'm not giving you any argument. I'm really not here to entertain you of you're just going to nitpick. Thank you for contributing to the conversation though. And yes, the reasons why this deck is only a little over 50% win rate (at rank 5-3) are all the things you've mentioned. This isn't a Tier 1 deck clearly. The reactive control version of Anyfin that has all draws and removal isn't Tier 1 either and is very flawed. I'm just having fun and trying to make a new deck here.
And no, this deck can't utilize it's combo on turn 10 by average. BUT like I said, that's not this decks only win condition. That's the whole point of giving it multiple win conditions. A decent percentage of my wins with this deck came between turns 5-10. Not 50%, but not 10% either, somewhere between. A smallish percentage of the wins come exactly on turn 10. And the rest of the wins come between turn 11 and fatigue.
If opponent has 5/5 Reliquary Seekers and 8/8 Sea Giant which do you Aldor Peacekeeper? 8/8 and risk Owl? or 5/5?
That's a tough spot, just make the calculated risk there based on health, your cards, what cards he played, etc. If he's played an owl already i'd always peacekeeper the 8/8. If he hasn't played an owl and it's early/mid game I'd do the 8/8 as well and just cross my fingers. If I have decently high health and he has not played an owl yet and he has a lot of cards in his hand I could assume the odds of him having owl in his hand are good and I'd want to owl the reliquary seeker so he can't silence him. You're only losing out on 3 health worth of face damage there, but he can't owl him.
Very simple answer to what I have been asking for so long :
Murloc OTK paladin : Oh god, this sucks. If you have the coin, keep it and do not show murlocs if possible so your opponent does not realize you are murlocs and have the coin and lets his murlocs die. Then coin anyfin for the 100% win. If you do not have the coin, hide your murlocs if possible so your opponent wastes it. Then you win.
Very simple answer to what I have been asking for so long :
Murloc OTK paladin : Oh god, this sucks. If you have the coin, keep it and do not show murlocs if possible so your opponent does not realize you are murlocs and have the coin and lets his murlocs die. Then coin anyfin for the 100% win. If you do not have the coin, hide your murlocs if possible so your opponent wastes it. Then you win.
Right?! I love that strategy. The odd part is that before you know what Paladin they are... Maybe you have a good oppotrunity to play a murloc and get a lead on the board. If you hold off you could be up against a secret paladin with a really bad mulligan or you could be up against an Anyfin.
Very simple answer to what I have been asking for so long :
Murloc OTK paladin : Oh god, this sucks. If you have the coin, keep it and do not show murlocs if possible so your opponent does not realize you are murlocs and have the coin and lets his murlocs die. Then coin anyfin for the 100% win. If you do not have the coin, hide your murlocs if possible so your opponent wastes it. Then you win.
So I think this strategy isn't perfect. When i'm playing against Paladin, you know very quickly if it's Secret Palaldin. And you also know very quickly (with decent confidence) that it's Mid Range Paladin because you'll see either Chows or you won't see Secrets/Secret Keepers/Spiders/etc. So really the only thing that will throw your opponent off is if you are playing the Mid Range Paladin version of Anyfin because it so closely resembles Mid Range paladin. The control versions of Anyfin have a lot of cards that you really don't see in other Paladin decks right now like Wild Pyro and Doomsayer. And a lot of turn 2 turn 3 hero powers are HUGE red flags that you're up against Anyfin. I would actdually go as far as saying the Anyfin surprise is only vs new players or players who don't pay attention to other decks and are zoned in on only the most common decks. I figure after another month or so Anyfin will either fade away or will be a deck everyone can readily identify with by the cards turns 1/2/3 moves i mentioned (Pyro/Doomsayer/Heropower). And I have a feeling it'll be the latter.
That being said, I believe this is the best approach though. Holding your murlocs so you have the upper hand on the population. BUT there are times when playing them gets you board control or clears their board (using your charge murlocs) and that can help keep your health up. So it's a delicate line to walk.
It's not that simple. If you put your murlocks on the board, then he can't just go anyfin. He must clean those murlocs first. So the best line of play would be playing murlocs before you can anyfin on an empty (or nearly empty) board, hit face with them (to increase reach), then anyfin next turn.
I think the strongest Anyfin deck currently in existence is the control one that focuses solely on the double Anyfin combo as finisher and does not attempt to be a midrange deck as well. Neviilz's list is probably the standard such deck list at the moment:
As far as I know, attempts to make a midrange-combo version have so far failed, because in order to run your combo, you sacrifice too much of the midrange goodies and have a hard time competing for the board against both aggro and midrange decks, thus not living long enough to actually play your combo. I don't happen to have a silver bullet in my pocket for how to fix this, but perhaps you might also consider other Anyfin approaches beside midrange.
So after playing boat loads of anyfin games, I'm liking the control anyfin deck the best. I had to learn how to mulligan it properly vs certain aggro decks. Druid is the toughest matchup for me with this deck, but that's acceptable considering Priest and Warrior matchups tend to be near guaranteed wins.
Against aggro, I'm hard mulliganing for Doomsayer, Truesilver, and Wild Pryo (and sometimes Equality). But just playing Doomsayer on turn 2/3 on a 1 minion board or even an empty board is actually a great play.
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Primary goal is to get a Chow, Minibot, Juggler, Muster, Peacekeeper. Don't keep any 4 drops ever here except Consecration. The only time i'll keep a 4 drop is if I have a 1/2/3/4 or a 2/3/4 going perfectly. But often times i'll take a hard look at my 4 drop and say "Would I rather throw this away and try to get a zombie chow?". I'll never keep a Warleader unless I have a 1 or a 2 drop to play first. I will keep a Bluegill here against paladin if I believe it's a Secret Paladin (if I'm running into a lot of them or if I know this opponent plays secret paladin). Bluegill trades into Secret Keeper and Juggler very well and catches them by surprise.
Mostly same as NO coin here, but I'm more lenient to curve because I have a coin to smooth it out. I'll usually always keep two 2 mana minions because I can play one of them on turn 1. For example, always keep Juggler and Minibot, or always keep 2x Minibot. BUT I will not keep two Bluegills because they only have 1 health and are not my ideal turn 2 play. I'll throw away that 2nd Bluegill and try to get a chow or something. I'll even keep two Musters here with coin just because it's so good. But do try to play around consecration. Don't just blindly turn 2 (coin) Muster and then turn 3 Muster because your turn 4 may be ugly when they Consecrate you. BUT if you turn 2 (coin) Muster and then on turn 3 trade all your 1/1's then of course play the second muster on turn 3 to get board again.
So you keep Consecration only with The Coin vs Paladin? That's good to know, thank you.
Another thing is do you ever keep Equality? I feel like there are match-ups, especially warlock zoo, where you need Equality very early, cause of Sea Giants and 5/5 Reliquary Seekers?
and Aldor Peacekeeper is not a good solution, since often they will just Defender of Argus 1/8 and play another 5/5 Reliquary Seekers or even another Sea Giant.
eadric the pure works well to save you for a turn or two when you have lost the board..... to last to turn 10 to play anyfin. If you don't have him DR. Boom would work ok or maybe a second enter the coliseum
If opponent has 5/5 Reliquary Seekers and 8/8 Sea Giant which do you Aldor Peacekeeper? 8/8 and risk Owl? or 5/5?
Nice! What a game. He's using the control version of the deck. I love playing anyfin... So much fun.
Check out this amazing write up on Reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/3yxu2c/paladin_murloc_otk_tech_your_way_to_legend/
It's not that simple. If you put your murlocks on the board, then he can't just go anyfin. He must clean those murlocs first. So the best line of play would be playing murlocs before you can anyfin on an empty (or nearly empty) board, hit face with them (to increase reach), then anyfin next turn.