I really apologize if this post sounds egotistical, but some people on this site are about to give me an aneurysm.
First of all, let's talk about the Recruit mechanic. We've seen Recruit before. Like literally word for word. Everyone wrote it off because the Minion is was attached to was weak for the mana, and the Tribe it was for was a weak tribe.
I'm of course talking about Finja, the Flying Star with his "Recruit 2 Murlocs whenever this minion kills a minion".
You all know how backbreaking Finja can be when he gets a Bluegill Warrior and a Murloc Warleader off of his pulls. And he WILL pull them, because you stacked your deck so that you only had Finja, Bluegills, and Warleaders. Take that same logic, and apply it to Recruit. Gather Your Party pulls up The Lich King, Ysera, Ragnaros the Firelord and you know that's what your gonna get. Why? Because those are the cards you put in your deck. Guild Recruiter is the same exact thing (though better in Wild; Totem Golem, Flamewreathed Faceless, and [card]Flametongue Totem[card] are great cards for Shaman and none of them are bad to pull off this guy) for more aggressive decks.
The only thing holding back Recruit is your deckbuilding skills.
Next cards on the list are the Spellstones. Again, we've seen this before; it's a card that has to sit in your hand while things happen to power it up before you can play it. Like Bolvar Fordragon, Clutchmother Zavas or any of the cards that are nuts if you get the perfect condition going but are absolute dead weight if you topdeck them (Lesser Sapphire Spellstone is a 7 mana clone. That's horrendous....) At least the Jasper Spellstone is playable as a 1 mana spell for 2 damage, even if it's not great.
Carnivorous Cube is just another Moat Lurker in that any combo you think of it A) requires a board, B) Weakens your board, and C) Is incredibly susceptible to Hex/Polymorph/Devolve. It's got a decent body this time around, but it also can't kill enemy minions.
Aluneth and Dragon Soul are bad because if every class gets a legendary weapon, Scavenging Ooze, Gluttonous Ooze, and Harrison Jones are gonna be everywhere. Dragon Soul does have a chance at going into Shadowreaper Reno combo when the weapon hate goes away, though.
Finally, let's talk about Rin, the First Disciple. Yes, she's slow. Horrendously slow. You know who else was called Horrendously slow and ended up being one of the best legendaries in Un'goro (Beaten out only by Lyra the Sunshard and Sunkeeper Tarim)? Pyros. The Synergies in Un'Goro and KotFT were enough to catapult Pyros into a pretty important card for Frost Lich Jaina decks. While I'm not saying Rin is a card that looks appealing at the moment, I am saying it's too soon to judge.
I'm just saying that when you evaluate new cards, you need to ask a couple of questions before you just write a card off or call something OP:
1) "Does this card do something similar to another card".
Take Uther of the Ebon Blade; Widely considered the best Death Knight when announced, no one seemed to pay attention to how difficult it was to keep 3/2's on the board (from Nether Portal) that they got themselves into a tizzy over the (janky) win condition tied to the 2/2's he summoned. Now look at Bloodreaver Gul'dan, who IS actually played because he's like N'Zoth, the Corruptor, and also at Shadowreaper Anduin, where Kripp was already piloting a janky Priest OTK deck on ladder right before this came out. If a card does something similar to whats already out there, the first thing you need to compare the two.
2) "Does this card fit into an existing deck"
This one people do a good job with, though I still see a bunch of people who don't do it often enough; Dragon Soul slots right into Shadowreaper Anduin combo as I said, with it's only problem being the fact that Priest only has access to two legendary weapons (Dragon Soul and Atiesh). Lesser Sapphire Spellstone slots into Crusher Shaman but again, it's a horrible top deck if you don't have it sitting in your hand charging up (of course, this is assuming it works that way. 3 mana isn't a lot to ask if it works in your deck.....)
3) "Does this card make a new deck"
Kinda self explanatory. I don't think anything revealed thus far does this yet, though I did post a thread about how Guild recruiter might make Death and Taxes a thing in hearthstone.... I am fully willing to admit I could be wrong on that though.
I can see aluneth going into tenpo mage, you tend to run out of cards in tempo mage often, refilling it every turn is very valuable you take out one arcane intellect and slot to his weapon.
catnivorous cube has combo potential we saw some cool combos in trolden with moat lurker this card is better for such combos it's great on hunter really caise you got a cheap way to trigger his deathrattle with play dead or stalker yu can get 3 highmanes (aka the dream)
guild recruiter will be played on echo shaman to pull 2/8 taunts or 4 mana 7/7s which you wanna copy with the new card, that's at least a deck I am gonna try! qlso the 8/8 giants they work well withthe copying mechanic if they cost 1 or 2 you get 4 8/8s for2 cards.
about too decking yeah it sucks but it's a controldeck so uou can afford to wait.
Well the warrior recruit deck is a worse version of Big Priest, which is bad anyway. Also you cannot compare uther to nether portal. The problem with portal is that you die by the time you cast it. Uther stays alive for a bunch but has no powerful wincon and is weak to priest and mage otk. Pyros is fair in some decks, but not ovetpowered and not necessary in either. It's useful to have a 2 mana 2 2 on 2, 6 on 6 etc, but sometimes not good enough.
Also how can you say the revealed weapons are bad? You can trigger their effect once and you are happy. And you have a potential to trigger them more, which can flat out win you the game. So before you accuse the community of misjudging, remember it's all subjective, and you may be the one who is wrong...
A) Big Priest can't reach 716 Armor along with constantly reshuffling stuff into their deck (including Ysera and Lich King cards), Portal gives you 3/2's, Uther gives you 2/2's and I was trying to convince people that he was never going to get an Exodia off unless you built a janky deck because of how easy 2/2's are to kill that late in the game (And uther "not having a win con" is exactly the same thing people said about Lakkari "not being a win con".)
B) Mage Weapon is bad because drawing 3 for 6 is bad and I said Dragon Soul's problem was the huge amount of weapon removal going to be present, not that it was bad. And drawing 3 cards turn after turn can also very easily get you killed in fatigue match ups (There is currently no reasonable way to destroy your own weapon).
C) This is the community that thought Lakkari Sacrifice was infinite value (unironically. Dat 41% "Meta Defining" rating) and thought that The Caverns Below was unplayable trash. Meanwhile I was saying The Caverns Below was stupid easy to activate BEFORE THE SET CAME OUT. Un'goro, I had one legendary that took me by surprise (Sunkeeper Tarim; I legit didn't pay attention to him because I'm not interested in playing Paladin). The only two Death Knights I was wrong about were Valeera and Malfurion; I had Malfurion at #4 most powerful and Valeera at #2.
I KNOW I'm not the one in the wrong. I may be a horrible deck builder, but I've been more right than most pros on evaluating these sets. Only reason I haven't made videos prior to the sets is because I'm poor and the quality of the video would be shit.
I can see aluneth going into tenpo mage, you tend to run out of cards in tempo mage often, refilling it every turn is very valuable you take out one arcane intellect and slot to his weapon.
catnivorous ooze has combo potential we saw some cool combos in trolden with moat lurker this card is better for such combos it's great on hunter really caise you got a cheap way to trigger his deathrattle with play dead or stalker yu can get 3 highmanes (aka the dream)
yeah play 6 mana do nothing in tempo mage and you lost the game.
the ooze is a meme card - not competitive and deathrattle hunter as we all know failed totally - not competitive also.
those cards might be fun but you won't see them on ladder.
I can see aluneth going into tenpo mage, you tend to run out of cards in tempo mage often, refilling it every turn is very valuable you take out one arcane intellect and slot to his weapon.
catnivorous ooze has combo potential we saw some cool combos in trolden with moat lurker this card is better for such combos it's great on hunter really caise you got a cheap way to trigger his deathrattle with play dead or stalker yu can get 3 highmanes (aka the dream)
yeah play 6 mana do nothing in tempo mage and you lost the game.
the ooze is a meme card - not competitive and deathrattle hunter as we all know failed totally - not competitive also.
those cards might be fun but you won't see them on ladder.
I played dr hunter quite a bit if it gets a little better ways to deal with aggro it's really good tried egg dr hunter since unguru it's very strong when you activate the eggs in mass raza priest was tier 4 before ktf I think this dr hunter is top tier 4ish so with enough tools it might work.btw in wild with one thaurrisan tick you get a 4 cards otk combo: cube + leeroy + 2 play dead.
so you twll me playing a 6 mana "do nothing" is worse than playing nothing cause you run out of cards? this card seems like a really good way to beat jade druid by getting more burn spells every turn people tried playing hemet jungle hunter before to get more burn spells. well the difference this time is that people actually have hp gain.. I am not saying this cardis insane but it's by no means garbage.
They respond with Harrison Jones, since Jones is going to be in every deck due to every class getting a Legendary Weapon.
Net Result: You both drew 3 cards, they have a 5/4 and you have an empty board. And mages don't have that many weapons, so Harrison is gonna sit in their hand until you play this.
Aluneth could easily fit in a tempo mage deck. Easily. Draws you three, it may get oozed but if it doesn't then you'll get 6 or 9 which is gamebreaking. It's basically divine favor that works all the time.
Lyra was considered bad because priest was basically a meme deck apart from dragon priest and it was losing like 80% of the cards it used!
Everyone looks at cards differently, sometimes people are right about some things, others not.
Also, there's a difference between being slow in terms of costing 5 mana and requiring very little set up, rather than spending what... 35 mana? On something that can be silenced, something you have to commit really bad stuff into and something doesn't automatically win you the game.
Aluneth could easily fit in a tempo mage deck. Easily. Draws you three, it may get oozed but if it doesn't then you'll get 6 or 9 which is gamebreaking. It's basically divine favor that works all the time.
Lyra was considered bad because priest was basically a meme deck apart from dragon priest and it was losing like 80% of the cards it used!
Everyone looks at cards differently, sometimes people are right about some things, others not.
Also, there's a difference between being slow in terms of costing 5 mana and requiring very little set up, rather than spending what... 35 mana? On something that can be silenced, something you have to commit really bad stuff into and something doesn't automatically win you the game.
How do we know that the Warlock weapon isn't "Sacrifice a random minion/discard a random card: Regain 2 or 3 mana crystals when you cast a spell"? Just like Pyros wasn't obvious why you would want to play him right off the bat, we don't know what else is coming up for Warlock, especially not with all the Health Cast cards it's gotten recently. Not that that weapon would be good when the expansion hit due to all the weapon removal everyone would pack, but still.
Let's say you did have Aluneth equipped for 3-4 turns. You're now 9-12 cards into fatigue (if you're not just flat out burning cards out of your hand) and that's not even a guarantee you've killed your opponent due to how much life/armor gain KotFT just gave all the classes.
Lyra being considered a bad card because priest was a meme deck at the time is exactly why people need to try to look at what could be, instead of what is right now.
And if Aluneth is 6 mana for 3 cards then immediately gets oozed, that's not going to see play; people don't play Sprint, they won't play Aluneth.
Pyros is NOTHING like rin. Ive played pyros litterally hundreds of times in wild AND standard decks along with n'zoth so it was even more valuable. The amount of value pyros generates is insane and the tempo loss is negligible. Rin on the other hand gives you cards that are puuuure trash. Her body is actually ok vs really aggressive decks, but tempo decks are much better these days. Playing a 6 mana 66 is much better than having to play 5 sub par 5 drops to get a bad 10 drop. Honestly if the azari guy was a standalone 10 drop it would be purely an anti control card. In terms of tempo its a 10 mana 10 10 that stops your opponent from topdecking next turn.
The hunter youre going against isnt gona hezetate to use the last bit of value in his hand and grind you out with the hero power ( seeing as you skipped 6 turns playing trash and taking face damage it isnt going to be difficult either) . On the note of a hunter even if you destroy their deck they could still beat you using build a beast as you dont really need draws when thats your hero power. A simple stealthed 5-7 attack guy could easily kill you.
The only chance rin has to see play is if they print insane support cards or if the only 2 playable decks are jade druid and mill warrior and you can somehow consistently draw rin before turn 10 and finish it relatively soon ( ignoring that jade druid could easily kill you or that mill warrior could mill rin or just make themselves a new deck)
Aluneth could easily fit in a tempo mage deck. Easily. Draws you three, it may get oozed but if it doesn't then you'll get 6 or 9 which is gamebreaking. It's basically divine favor that works all the time.
Lyra was considered bad because priest was basically a meme deck apart from dragon priest and it was losing like 80% of the cards it used!
Everyone looks at cards differently, sometimes people are right about some things, others not.
Also, there's a difference between being slow in terms of costing 5 mana and requiring very little set up, rather than spending what... 35 mana? On something that can be silenced, something you have to commit really bad stuff into and something doesn't automatically win you the game.
How do we know that the Warlock weapon isn't "Sacrifice a random minion/discard a random card: Regain 2 or 3 mana crystals when you cast a spell"? Just like Pyros wasn't obvious why you would want to play him right off the bat, we don't know what else is coming up for Warlock, especially not with all the Health Cast cards it's gotten recently. Not that that weapon would be good when the expansion hit due to all the weapon removal everyone would pack, but still.
Let's say you did have Aluneth equipped for 3-4 turns. You're now 9-12 cards into fatigue (if you're not just flat out burning cards out of your hand) and that's not even a guarantee you've killed your opponent due to how much life/armor gain KotFT just gave all the classes.
Lyra being considered a bad card because priest was a meme deck at the time is exactly why people need to try to look at what could be, instead of what is right now.
And if Aluneth is 6 mana for 3 cards then immediately gets oozed, that's not going to see play; people don't play Sprint, they won't play Aluneth.
Of course we don't know that but we haven't seen any other cards yet, so we can only talk about cards with what we can see now. There could be a card that reads 'play every single seal'. But until that card is printed then we are unsure. You wouldn't be burning the cards if you build an aggressive type of mage. I can see an archetype whereby Aluneth is used, but I cannot see a world ever where Rin is used, and nor can anyone but you apparently.
It's pretty hard to know what the meta is going to be when things rotate out. All the pro's thought elementals were going to be OP. Look how that went, card speculation is fine however nobody is actually reviewing the card. People don't play Sprint, however miracle would if Auctioneer wasn't a thing!
You're basically saying I'm wrong for saying Rin is too slow because playing it is an utterly ridiculous thing, unless you've forgotten ,there's a card called Patches the Pirate that will eat you alive. I'd be very surprised if they printed a card anywhere near his power level. Tell me to wait and see with regards to it, fine, PM me once all of the cards are revealed and I'll talk about it with you, but I'll tell you to wait and see with regards to the weapons! Who knows, legendary weapons may be immune to weapon removal.
1) if the community mistakenly judges a card, all the better! It is a nice niche against netdecking. You may also be wrong on some of your judgements.
1b) So why caring! Judgement mistakes are actually a good thing!
2) Recruit has potential to turn REALLY nasty, and fill the meta with Big Decks all over, but as you said, much of its power depends on deckbuilding. IMO, that is a very good side of it: i usually find deckbuilding as fun as playing, and i am sure i am not alone out there.
Aluneth could easily fit in a tempo mage deck. Easily. Draws you three, it may get oozed but if it doesn't then you'll get 6 or 9 which is gamebreaking. It's basically divine favor that works all the time.
Lyra was considered bad because priest was basically a meme deck apart from dragon priest and it was losing like 80% of the cards it used!
Everyone looks at cards differently, sometimes people are right about some things, others not.
Also, there's a difference between being slow in terms of costing 5 mana and requiring very little set up, rather than spending what... 35 mana? On something that can be silenced, something you have to commit really bad stuff into and something doesn't automatically win you the game.
How do we know that the Warlock weapon isn't "Sacrifice a random minion/discard a random card: Regain 2 or 3 mana crystals when you cast a spell"? Just like Pyros wasn't obvious why you would want to play him right off the bat, we don't know what else is coming up for Warlock, especially not with all the Health Cast cards it's gotten recently. Not that that weapon would be good when the expansion hit due to all the weapon removal everyone would pack, but still.
Let's say you did have Aluneth equipped for 3-4 turns. You're now 9-12 cards into fatigue (if you're not just flat out burning cards out of your hand) and that's not even a guarantee you've killed your opponent due to how much life/armor gain KotFT just gave all the classes.
Lyra being considered a bad card because priest was a meme deck at the time is exactly why people need to try to look at what could be, instead of what is right now.
And if Aluneth is 6 mana for 3 cards then immediately gets oozed, that's not going to see play; people don't play Sprint, they won't play Aluneth.
people do play nourish though( and it is mostly for card draw if you don't have ui).
You are happy to call Carnivorous Cube or the new mage weapon trash (which is your opinion and fine since you give your reasons), but tell other people they cannot evaluate Rin, the First Disciple because it is too early...? Either it is too early and you cannot say shit about any card, or you can evaluate cards and give your reasons for your opinion. Whether you are right or wrong will always only be seen after the expansion hits and the meta settles.
I disagree with a lot of things you stated. Beginning with a comparison of pyros (a card that gives you at least stats for mana and which is btw also not a staple in Jaina mages) to a 3/6 taunt that gives you more tempo wrecking cards (imho only playable against full attrition decks), not ending with a comparison of card]carnivorous cube[/card] and Moat Lurker . A 4/6 for 5 is decent, a 3/3 for 6 is pretty obviously not. I don't know whether the cube will be viable, but it can't be compared to moat lurker in respect to it's strength. It's like saying that Bonemare is trash because Shattered Sun Cleric is not competetively viable. Not that I expect the cube to be as good as bonemare, but he is a clearly better card than moat lurker with regard to his effect.
Card evaluation is always a little bit a gamble. I also thought The Caverns Below was playable, but I guess I would have rated it playable as well, if it would have been released in the post-nerf form since we all lacked experience with this kind of effect (of course it was clear that the nerf will kill the card once we saw how the card played out). The same with Rin. I am convinced it will not be competetively playable simply because I cannot imagine a ladder in which attrition decks are plenty enough to make the card improve your overall winrate. And I consider it being a dead card against aggro, midrange and combo decks. If I am wrong, I will see after December 7.
Pyros is NOTHING like rin. Ive played pyros litterally hundreds of times in wild AND standard decks along with n'zoth so it was even more valuable. The amount of value pyros generates is insane and the tempo loss is negligible. Rin on the other hand gives you cards that are puuuure trash. Her body is actually ok vs really aggressive decks, but tempo decks are much better these days. Playing a 6 mana 66 is much better than having to play 5 sub par 5 drops to get a bad 10 drop. Honestly if the azari guy was a standalone 10 drop it would be purely an anti control card. In terms of tempo its a 10 mana 10 10 that stops your opponent from topdecking next turn.
The hunter youre going against isnt gona hezetate to use the last bit of value in his hand and grind you out with the hero power ( seeing as you skipped 6 turns playing trash and taking face damage it isnt going to be difficult either) . On the note of a hunter even if you destroy their deck they could still beat you using build a beast as you dont really need draws when thats your hero power. A simple stealthed 5-7 attack guy could easily kill you.
The only chance rin has to see play is if they print insane support cards or if the only 2 playable decks are jade druid and mill warrior and you can somehow consistently draw rin before turn 10 and finish it relatively soon ( ignoring that jade druid could easily kill you or that mill warrior could mill rin or just make themselves a new deck)
Pyros was trash. Everyone "knew" it; a 2/2 for 2 is bad, a 6/6 for 6 is bad, a 10/10 for 10 is bad. It wasn't until Elemental Synergy and FL Jaina came out that everyone thought "hey, 3 Elemental minions for a single card slot is actually great!"
Hunter can't Build a Beast if you destroy Rexxar while he's in their deck.
Gnomeferatu exists, which along with Rin means they are exploring the idea of deck destruction. We may see more of it. Health Cast is a thing, and there's a lot of Lifesteal in the previous set along with whatever they get this set. We may be seeing a bunch of cards that drastically speed this process up. We don't know, so writing it off as badly as most people are is just asking for people to be proven wrong.
Aluneth could easily fit in a tempo mage deck. Easily. Draws you three, it may get oozed but if it doesn't then you'll get 6 or 9 which is gamebreaking. It's basically divine favor that works all the time.
Lyra was considered bad because priest was basically a meme deck apart from dragon priest and it was losing like 80% of the cards it used!
Everyone looks at cards differently, sometimes people are right about some things, others not.
Also, there's a difference between being slow in terms of costing 5 mana and requiring very little set up, rather than spending what... 35 mana? On something that can be silenced, something you have to commit really bad stuff into and something doesn't automatically win you the game.
How do we know that the Warlock weapon isn't "Sacrifice a random minion/discard a random card: Regain 2 or 3 mana crystals when you cast a spell"? Just like Pyros wasn't obvious why you would want to play him right off the bat, we don't know what else is coming up for Warlock, especially not with all the Health Cast cards it's gotten recently. Not that that weapon would be good when the expansion hit due to all the weapon removal everyone would pack, but still.
Let's say you did have Aluneth equipped for 3-4 turns. You're now 9-12 cards into fatigue (if you're not just flat out burning cards out of your hand) and that's not even a guarantee you've killed your opponent due to how much life/armor gain KotFT just gave all the classes.
Lyra being considered a bad card because priest was a meme deck at the time is exactly why people need to try to look at what could be, instead of what is right now.
And if Aluneth is 6 mana for 3 cards then immediately gets oozed, that's not going to see play; people don't play Sprint, they won't play Aluneth.
Of course we don't know that but we haven't seen any other cards yet, so we can only talk about cards with what we can see now. There could be a card that reads 'play every single seal'. But until that card is printed then we are unsure. You wouldn't be burning the cards if you build an aggressive type of mage. I can see an archetype whereby Aluneth is used, but I cannot see a world ever where Rin is used, and nor can anyone but you apparently.
It's pretty hard to know what the meta is going to be when things rotate out. All the pro's thought elementals were going to be OP. Look how that went, card speculation is fine however nobody is actually reviewing the card. People don't play Sprint, however miracle would if Auctioneer wasn't a thing!
You're basically saying I'm wrong for saying Rin is too slow because playing it is an utterly ridiculous thing, unless you've forgotten ,there's a card called Patches the Pirate that will eat you alive. I'd be very surprised if they printed a card anywhere near his power level. Tell me to wait and see with regards to it, fine, PM me once all of the cards are revealed and I'll talk about it with you, but I'll tell you to wait and see with regards to the weapons! Who knows, legendary weapons may be immune to weapon removal.
I feel they would have said something about the legendary weapons being immune to removal if that were the case, but I can see your point.
I'm not trying to predict the meta, honestly. It's just frustrating time and time again to see people look at these big shiny effects without thinking about how they interact with other cards; Weapons are gonna be everywhere, so weapon removal is gonna be everywhere as well.
Maybe it's just because my insomnia is acting up......
You are happy to call Carnivorous Cube or the new mage weapon trash (which is your opinion and fine since you give your reasons), but tell other people they cannot evaluate Rin, the First Disciple because it is too early...? Either it is too early and you cannot say shit about any card, or you can evaluate cards and give your reasons for your opinion. Whether you are right or wrong will always only be seen after the expansion hits and the meta settles.
I'm calling the new weapon trash because people WILL be running weapon removal, and Mage does NOT have enough weapons to juke that removal. Carnivorous Cube is a trash card because it requires you to weaken your board and hope they don't have a Silence, Hex, Polymorph, Devolve, or similar.
These are known quantities that drastically effect how we can look at these cards; if a 30/30 card for 10 came out, it can still be easily evaluated same as a 10/10 for 10; large minion, doesn't do anything when it lands, if it sticks it's gonna win you the game. Probably gonna die before it swings though.
Rin is a card that seems like garbage but might not be due to support. If Kalimos, Primal Lord had been one of the first cards spoiled, we could have said it was a strong card but we wouldn't have known how good it was until we saw the elementals in the set.....
Rin not only gives you bodies just by casting the spell, but has direct synergy with Atiesh. Again, not that weapons are gonna be great right off the bat, but still.
In regards to the actual cards you mentioned... practice and theory are two different things. Uther of the Ebon Blade is by definition the strongest DK out of 'em all even if he's by far one of the least practical ones to use. There's two winconditions in Hearthstone; lowering your opponents health to 0 and summoning all 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse. That means he's the strongest even if someone like Malfurion the Pestilent is by far the most practical and thus' in practice the best.
In theory, things you can't get to work in practice are useless :P
Also, shaman is one good overload control card away from a playable control deck(elemental destruction might be enough to make it work in wild). Yes the amulet is awful with anything other than Drakkari Defender or Snowfury Giant, but when it goes of its INSANE. It could be quest rogue all over again with good early game removal. If you can consistantly overload by 8~9 early on its pretty easy to make 32 32 worth of stats before turn 10. The earth elemental + 2mana give a minion deathrattle ressumon this minion ( sorry forgot the name) is just a cherry on top.
Of course this deck could be just pure trash due to not being able to control the board or other control decks easily dealing with it.
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I really apologize if this post sounds egotistical, but some people on this site are about to give me an aneurysm.
First of all, let's talk about the Recruit mechanic. We've seen Recruit before. Like literally word for word. Everyone wrote it off because the Minion is was attached to was weak for the mana, and the Tribe it was for was a weak tribe.
I'm of course talking about Finja, the Flying Star with his "Recruit 2 Murlocs whenever this minion kills a minion".
You all know how backbreaking Finja can be when he gets a Bluegill Warrior and a Murloc Warleader off of his pulls. And he WILL pull them, because you stacked your deck so that you only had Finja, Bluegills, and Warleaders. Take that same logic, and apply it to Recruit. Gather Your Party pulls up The Lich King, Ysera, Ragnaros the Firelord and you know that's what your gonna get. Why? Because those are the cards you put in your deck. Guild Recruiter is the same exact thing (though better in Wild; Totem Golem, Flamewreathed Faceless, and [card]Flametongue Totem[card] are great cards for Shaman and none of them are bad to pull off this guy) for more aggressive decks.
The only thing holding back Recruit is your deckbuilding skills.
Next cards on the list are the Spellstones. Again, we've seen this before; it's a card that has to sit in your hand while things happen to power it up before you can play it. Like Bolvar Fordragon, Clutchmother Zavas or any of the cards that are nuts if you get the perfect condition going but are absolute dead weight if you topdeck them (Lesser Sapphire Spellstone is a 7 mana clone. That's horrendous....) At least the Jasper Spellstone is playable as a 1 mana spell for 2 damage, even if it's not great.
Carnivorous Cube is just another Moat Lurker in that any combo you think of it A) requires a board, B) Weakens your board, and C) Is incredibly susceptible to Hex/Polymorph/Devolve. It's got a decent body this time around, but it also can't kill enemy minions.
Aluneth and Dragon Soul are bad because if every class gets a legendary weapon, Scavenging Ooze, Gluttonous Ooze, and Harrison Jones are gonna be everywhere. Dragon Soul does have a chance at going into Shadowreaper Reno combo when the weapon hate goes away, though.
Finally, let's talk about Rin, the First Disciple. Yes, she's slow. Horrendously slow. You know who else was called Horrendously slow and ended up being one of the best legendaries in Un'goro (Beaten out only by Lyra the Sunshard and Sunkeeper Tarim)? Pyros. The Synergies in Un'Goro and KotFT were enough to catapult Pyros into a pretty important card for Frost Lich Jaina decks. While I'm not saying Rin is a card that looks appealing at the moment, I am saying it's too soon to judge.
I'm just saying that when you evaluate new cards, you need to ask a couple of questions before you just write a card off or call something OP:
1) "Does this card do something similar to another card".
Take Uther of the Ebon Blade; Widely considered the best Death Knight when announced, no one seemed to pay attention to how difficult it was to keep 3/2's on the board (from Nether Portal) that they got themselves into a tizzy over the (janky) win condition tied to the 2/2's he summoned. Now look at Bloodreaver Gul'dan, who IS actually played because he's like N'Zoth, the Corruptor, and also at Shadowreaper Anduin, where Kripp was already piloting a janky Priest OTK deck on ladder right before this came out. If a card does something similar to whats already out there, the first thing you need to compare the two.
2) "Does this card fit into an existing deck"
This one people do a good job with, though I still see a bunch of people who don't do it often enough; Dragon Soul slots right into Shadowreaper Anduin combo as I said, with it's only problem being the fact that Priest only has access to two legendary weapons (Dragon Soul and Atiesh). Lesser Sapphire Spellstone slots into Crusher Shaman but again, it's a horrible top deck if you don't have it sitting in your hand charging up (of course, this is assuming it works that way. 3 mana isn't a lot to ask if it works in your deck.....)
3) "Does this card make a new deck"
Kinda self explanatory. I don't think anything revealed thus far does this yet, though I did post a thread about how Guild recruiter might make Death and Taxes a thing in hearthstone.... I am fully willing to admit I could be wrong on that though.
I can see aluneth going into tenpo mage, you tend to run out of cards in tempo mage often, refilling it every turn is very valuable you take out one arcane intellect and slot to his weapon.
catnivorous cube has combo potential we saw some cool combos in trolden with moat lurker this card is better for such combos it's great on hunter really caise you got a cheap way to trigger his deathrattle with play dead or stalker yu can get 3 highmanes (aka the dream)
guild recruiter will be played on echo shaman to pull 2/8 taunts or 4 mana 7/7s which you wanna copy with the new card, that's at least a deck I am gonna try! qlso the 8/8 giants they work well withthe copying mechanic if they cost 1 or 2 you get 4 8/8s for2 cards.
about too decking yeah it sucks but it's a controldeck so uou can afford to wait.
You play Aluneth T6, draw three cards.
They respond with Harrison Jones, since Jones is going to be in every deck due to every class getting a Legendary Weapon.
Net Result: You both drew 3 cards, they have a 5/4 and you have an empty board. And mages don't have that many weapons, so Harrison is gonna sit in their hand until you play this.
Aluneth could easily fit in a tempo mage deck. Easily. Draws you three, it may get oozed but if it doesn't then you'll get 6 or 9 which is gamebreaking. It's basically divine favor that works all the time.
Lyra was considered bad because priest was basically a meme deck apart from dragon priest and it was losing like 80% of the cards it used!
Everyone looks at cards differently, sometimes people are right about some things, others not.
Also, there's a difference between being slow in terms of costing 5 mana and requiring very little set up, rather than spending what... 35 mana? On something that can be silenced, something you have to commit really bad stuff into and something doesn't automatically win you the game.
Pyros is NOTHING like rin. Ive played pyros litterally hundreds of times in wild AND standard decks along with n'zoth so it was even more valuable. The amount of value pyros generates is insane and the tempo loss is negligible. Rin on the other hand gives you cards that are puuuure trash. Her body is actually ok vs really aggressive decks, but tempo decks are much better these days. Playing a 6 mana 66 is much better than having to play 5 sub par 5 drops to get a bad 10 drop. Honestly if the azari guy was a standalone 10 drop it would be purely an anti control card. In terms of tempo its a 10 mana 10 10 that stops your opponent from topdecking next turn.
The hunter youre going against isnt gona hezetate to use the last bit of value in his hand and grind you out with the hero power ( seeing as you skipped 6 turns playing trash and taking face damage it isnt going to be difficult either) . On the note of a hunter even if you destroy their deck they could still beat you using build a beast as you dont really need draws when thats your hero power. A simple stealthed 5-7 attack guy could easily kill you.
The only chance rin has to see play is if they print insane support cards or if the only 2 playable decks are jade druid and mill warrior and you can somehow consistently draw rin before turn 10 and finish it relatively soon ( ignoring that jade druid could easily kill you or that mill warrior could mill rin or just make themselves a new deck)
It's pretty hard to know what the meta is going to be when things rotate out. All the pro's thought elementals were going to be OP. Look how that went, card speculation is fine however nobody is actually reviewing the card. People don't play Sprint, however miracle would if Auctioneer wasn't a thing!
You're basically saying I'm wrong for saying Rin is too slow because playing it is an utterly ridiculous thing, unless you've forgotten ,there's a card called Patches the Pirate that will eat you alive. I'd be very surprised if they printed a card anywhere near his power level. Tell me to wait and see with regards to it, fine, PM me once all of the cards are revealed and I'll talk about it with you, but I'll tell you to wait and see with regards to the weapons! Who knows, legendary weapons may be immune to weapon removal.
I kinda agree with you OP, but:
1) if the community mistakenly judges a card, all the better! It is a nice niche against netdecking. You may also be wrong on some of your judgements.
1b) So why caring! Judgement mistakes are actually a good thing!
2) Recruit has potential to turn REALLY nasty, and fill the meta with Big Decks all over, but as you said, much of its power depends on deckbuilding. IMO, that is a very good side of it: i usually find deckbuilding as fun as playing, and i am sure i am not alone out there.
You are happy to call Carnivorous Cube or the new mage weapon trash (which is your opinion and fine since you give your reasons), but tell other people they cannot evaluate Rin, the First Disciple because it is too early...? Either it is too early and you cannot say shit about any card, or you can evaluate cards and give your reasons for your opinion. Whether you are right or wrong will always only be seen after the expansion hits and the meta settles.
I disagree with a lot of things you stated. Beginning with a comparison of pyros (a card that gives you at least stats for mana and which is btw also not a staple in Jaina mages) to a 3/6 taunt that gives you more tempo wrecking cards (imho only playable against full attrition decks), not ending with a comparison of card]carnivorous cube[/card] and Moat Lurker . A 4/6 for 5 is decent, a 3/3 for 6 is pretty obviously not. I don't know whether the cube will be viable, but it can't be compared to moat lurker in respect to it's strength. It's like saying that Bonemare is trash because Shattered Sun Cleric is not competetively viable. Not that I expect the cube to be as good as bonemare, but he is a clearly better card than moat lurker with regard to his effect.
Card evaluation is always a little bit a gamble. I also thought The Caverns Below was playable, but I guess I would have rated it playable as well, if it would have been released in the post-nerf form since we all lacked experience with this kind of effect (of course it was clear that the nerf will kill the card once we saw how the card played out). The same with Rin. I am convinced it will not be competetively playable simply because I cannot imagine a ladder in which attrition decks are plenty enough to make the card improve your overall winrate. And I consider it being a dead card against aggro, midrange and combo decks. If I am wrong, I will see after December 7.
Pyros gives you stats for mana at least. And he is far from being a staple in jaina mage in general, but also not in Elemental mage speficially.
And Gnomeferatu has no synergy with Rin, the First Disciple . If Azari, the Devourer gets off, it doesn't matter how many cards were milled beforehand. They are all gone anyway. Azari might have synergy with Dirty Rat or the Howlfiend / Treachery combo to also empty the opponents hand.
I thought we were going to talk about how we evaluate the cards but it is all about recruit mechanic.
Also, shaman is one good overload control card away from a playable control deck(elemental destruction might be enough to make it work in wild). Yes the amulet is awful with anything other than Drakkari Defender or Snowfury Giant, but when it goes of its INSANE. It could be quest rogue all over again with good early game removal. If you can consistantly overload by 8~9 early on its pretty easy to make 32 32 worth of stats before turn 10. The earth elemental + 2mana give a minion deathrattle ressumon this minion ( sorry forgot the name) is just a cherry on top.
Of course this deck could be just pure trash due to not being able to control the board or other control decks easily dealing with it.