Does anyone else feel that N'Zoth, the Corruptor and his many powerful friends* are limiting design space in Wild decks? If you look at the TempoStorm tier list, we have Renolock, Reno Mage, Secret Paladin, Control Warrior, Control Priest, Midrange Druid, N'Zoth Rogue, AND Midrange Hunter all running the N'Zoth package.
I fear that with the rotation of Sylvanas to Wild and the creation of Awaken the Makers, that means they are going to print more very powerful deathrattle synergy cards which will further polarize Wild decks toward heavy deathrattle synergy.
While I do enjoy playing Renolock, Control Warrior, Secret Paladin, and Midrange Druid with the N'Zoth package, I just get tired of the essence of my soul being tasted after a while.
Anyone else think this is becoming a long-term issue with the Wild format?
Yes, they are but that was the intent. There is either a video or a comment made by Ben Brode about this topic and he says that they've made N'zoth to purposely limit the design space regarding deathrattle minions. They want to have some sort of a limiter to show them when something is just too powerful or too weak regarding the deathrattle keyword.
It limits design space of Standard, not design space for Wild simply because they dont design for Wild.
I recall interviews with brode when they first announced the format split. People began asking balance questions about Wild. His response was basically "wild is meant to be wild". So, once Nzoth rotates, expect broken deathrattle cards to be printed in Standard, and for that brokenness to filter down to wild.
Interesting. I was hoping that they might design new cards at least with Wild balance somewhat in mind. It just seems that N'Zoth will always be the one card that causes a majority of classes to run a card package devoted to him. I just worry what this means for Wild deck variety down the road.
You know, Hearthstone would be a better game if any of these "Is xx limiting design space???" would also provide solid alternative options to use said "freed space" once the card is gone.
Personally i think Nzoth is the best thing ever that happened to wild, it is what gave control deck new viable options without making them broken and it still has a fair amount of counterplay (AOE or mass poly),
I agree that it might become a problem later but i dont think he should be nerfed its just fine how it is in wild.
Well, that's Blizzard's argument for creating the Wild format (although they do it for the cash in the first place, but that's a different topic). So the Wild meta will rather stagnate than evolve by time, since cards like Dr. Boom, Sludge Belcher, Piloted Shredder and so on are just too good to ever replace. With each expansion, only the best cards from it will be added and the worst cards from the current decks will be removed. After a while, you will likely have the "perfect" deck, which can't be really improved at all, since all cards in it are already broken. Right now it seems like the journey will end with a N'Zoth deathrattle deck, but who knows?
And exactly this is not true. For example: Dr. Boom and N'zoth is quite anti-synergistic. Piloted Shredder is sticky, but in this meta not really a good card, Sludge Belcher... ok he's always good, but that's only because blizzard is LAZY creating good taunt minions, because they seem to fear that games could take longer than 6-7 rounds. Heck, tell me ONE good taunt-minion after him... there isn't.
And then there's another issue Hearthstone has: not enough TECH-CARDS. Do you know that we had exactly the same discussion with Secret Paladin:
UNTIL THE END OF TIME SECRET PALADIN WILL BE TIER 1, BEST DECK EVER!
And... nowadays Secret Paladin is in the lower Tier 2. The meta IS changing. The problem is simply: We need more Tech-Cards. A good tech AGAINST deathrattle, and then N'zoth might seem not so good for example. The game needs more tech-cards that are useable, but punish someone if the enemy doesn't have it. Eater of Secrets is a GOOD example, Lil' Exorcist a bad one, and completely trash is Defias Cleaner.
We need tech against Battlecry and Deathrattle, and then N'zoth will also fall out of the meta until people take it out of their decks.
For example:
Tech-Card against Deathrattle 4 mana 2/3 taunt: Battlecry: Remove all Deathrattle-effects from all minions and gain a copy of their effect.
Here this effect can also be countered by adding more minions with negative Deathrattle-Effects like Deathlord and Zombie Chow. I really hope for an tech-card against Pirates in Un-Goro (Pirate-Eating Flower), but we might get it only in the expansion after this, since Un'goro might likely already been finished when Meme Streets of Gadgetzan was released.
Two reasons why N'Zoth doesn't limit design space in Wild:
1. N'Zoth has pretty much always been a case of Brawl or bust, so whether it summons 4 minions or 6 doesn't matter. You either AoE him or you don't.
2. Wild decks can already run enough deathrattle minions to spawn a full board with turn 10 N'Zoth, so you can add more deathrattles if you want. In terms of N'Zoth though, all it will change is which ones you might get back.
I was thinking the same. Each year with each rotation the card pool in wild gets bigger and NZoth finds more friends.
Dont get me wrong, I am a paladin lover and that made me a Nzoth lover. I even crafted Tirion Fordring, Sylvanas Windrunner and N'Zoth, the Corruptor golden. I have played in wild almost all Nzoth decks. Nzoth shaman, Nzoth Hunter, Nzoth reno priest, Nzoth reno dragon priest, Nzoth Reno lock, Nzoth reno mage, Nzoth reno paladin, Nzoth midrange paladin, Nzoth control paladin, Secret paladin with Nzoth blah blah. I find totally entitled to play Nzoth in paladin decks because Tirion but I was always hessitant of why I should put him in other decks who dont have a class specific deathrattle minion like paladin, Hunter, rogue do.
So I guess its just too good not to be included. And as far I have seen, the best counter is Kazakus mass polymorph or a better Nzoth or Twisting Nether. But Wild is wild. If Nzoth gets stronger then somethingg else is also going to get stronger.
People would have played the powerful Deathrattles either way; Deathrattle is a good way of being rewarded for having your minion killed/makes trades more valuable, and is much better than a vanilla minion with the same stats.
Sludge Belcher blocks 7 damage over two bodies compared to Senjin's 5 damage over one body, for one extra mana. Saw play even without N'zoth.
Problem is, it make other big minion never see play, because why not play Nzoth instead? Thats the same reason why they dump Rag and Syl to Wild. Thats what they call" limit design space"
Problem is, it make other big minion never see play, because why not play Nzoth instead? Thats the same reason why they dump Rag and Syl to Wild. Thats what they call" limit design space"
Because you're not building a deck around him?
If you play any singular Old God, chances are you aren't going to play any of the others; a Y'Shaarj deck won't have any need for N'zoth or C'thun or Yogg, so no need to include them when you can find better stat monsters elsewhere. None of them have Deathrattle, so no point for N'zoth to invite them out, C'thun needs a deck built with his own synergies, and Yogg is all about slinging out 20+ spells before one crazy turn.
There's also the fact that no one in their right mind is going to put a 10 drop like N'zoth into their aggro deck (unless it's a new form of Undertaker hunter, but it'll probably be too slow for that).
The difference between Rag or Syl and N'zoth is that the former two were being put into every deck as a 1 of just because they were that powerful, and the latter requires an entire deck built around his ability (Which isn't so hard since we have amazing deathrattles from Naxx, but I imagine they're gonna be more careful after that).
I assume you're responding to taunt minions response? He's ok, but it can go very badly. Like when my opponent (Reno Mage) Brann + Dirty Ratd me and hit Drakon OP and Azure... and then passed turn... Yeah I won that game
The best counter vs. Nzoth is aggro and wild is mostly aggro. Control decks are mostly renolock/priest where they have Kaza for the 10 mana poly potion.
N'Zoth is fantastically designed card that doesn't limit the design space for following reasons:
1. You can only have one
2. There's no guarantee you'll pull it out
3. It summons random minions
4. Only minions summoned are the ones that died (polymorphed, hexed, entombed are not summoned)
5. It can summon a maximum of 6 minions
Unless there are some crazy value lowcost deathrattle minions printed (which won't happen), there's no reason to worry about. While he is not a win more card, there are certainly more than enough condition too meet to make him an actual win card. Even then, it's very possible to survive. I played games where i shadowstepped him twice and still lost.
I assume you're responding to taunt minions response? He's ok, but it can go very badly. Like when my opponent (Reno Mage) Brann + Dirty Ratd me and hit Drakon OP and Azure... and then passed turn... Yeah I won that game
He says Dirty Rat is a good counter to deathrattle decks because it can pull of N'Zoth.
And exactly this is not true. For example: Dr. Boom and N'zoth is quite anti-synergistic. Piloted Shredder is sticky, but in this meta not really a good card, Sludge Belcher... ok he's always good, but that's only because blizzard is LAZY creating good taunt minions, because they seem to fear that games could take longer than 6-7 rounds. Heck, tell me ONE good taunt-minion after him... there isn't.
I assume you're responding to taunt minions response? He's ok, but it can go very badly. Like when my opponent (Reno Mage) Brann + Dirty Ratd me and hit Drakon OP and Azure... and then passed turn... Yeah I won that game
He says Dirty Rat is a good counter to deathrattle decks because it can pull of N'Zoth.
That makes sense. Really though how often is that going to happen with a hand full of deathrattles :)
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Does anyone else feel that N'Zoth, the Corruptor and his many powerful friends* are limiting design space in Wild decks? If you look at the TempoStorm tier list, we have Renolock, Reno Mage, Secret Paladin, Control Warrior, Control Priest, Midrange Druid, N'Zoth Rogue, AND Midrange Hunter all running the N'Zoth package.
I fear that with the rotation of Sylvanas to Wild and the creation of Awaken the Makers, that means they are going to print more very powerful deathrattle synergy cards which will further polarize Wild decks toward heavy deathrattle synergy.
While I do enjoy playing Renolock, Control Warrior, Secret Paladin, and Midrange Druid with the N'Zoth package, I just get tired of the essence of my soul being tasted after a while.
Anyone else think this is becoming a long-term issue with the Wild format?
*Many powerful friends include, but are not limited to Zombie Chow, Mistress of Mixtures, Haunted Creeper, Mad Scientist, Deathlord, Piloted Shredder, Sludge Belcher, Sylvanas Windrunner, Dr. Boom, and Tirion Fordring.
Yes, they are but that was the intent. There is either a video or a comment made by Ben Brode about this topic and he says that they've made N'zoth to purposely limit the design space regarding deathrattle minions. They want to have some sort of a limiter to show them when something is just too powerful or too weak regarding the deathrattle keyword.
It limits design space of Standard, not design space for Wild simply because they dont design for Wild.
I recall interviews with brode when they first announced the format split. People began asking balance questions about Wild. His response was basically "wild is meant to be wild". So, once Nzoth rotates, expect broken deathrattle cards to be printed in Standard, and for that brokenness to filter down to wild.
Interesting. I was hoping that they might design new cards at least with Wild balance somewhat in mind. It just seems that N'Zoth will always be the one card that causes a majority of classes to run a card package devoted to him. I just worry what this means for Wild deck variety down the road.
You know, Hearthstone would be a better game if any of these "Is xx limiting design space???" would also provide solid alternative options to use said "freed space" once the card is gone.
Personally i think Nzoth is the best thing ever that happened to wild, it is what gave control deck new viable options without making them broken and it still has a fair amount of counterplay (AOE or mass poly),
I agree that it might become a problem later but i dont think he should be nerfed its just fine how it is in wild.
4 mana 2/3 taunt: Battlecry: Remove all Deathrattle-effects from all minions and gain a copy of their effect.
Two reasons why N'Zoth doesn't limit design space in Wild:
1. N'Zoth has pretty much always been a case of Brawl or bust, so whether it summons 4 minions or 6 doesn't matter. You either AoE him or you don't.
2. Wild decks can already run enough deathrattle minions to spawn a full board with turn 10 N'Zoth, so you can add more deathrattles if you want. In terms of N'Zoth though, all it will change is which ones you might get back.
I was thinking the same. Each year with each rotation the card pool in wild gets bigger and NZoth finds more friends.
Dont get me wrong, I am a paladin lover and that made me a Nzoth lover. I even crafted Tirion Fordring, Sylvanas Windrunner and N'Zoth, the Corruptor golden. I have played in wild almost all Nzoth decks. Nzoth shaman, Nzoth Hunter, Nzoth reno priest, Nzoth reno dragon priest, Nzoth Reno lock, Nzoth reno mage, Nzoth reno paladin, Nzoth midrange paladin, Nzoth control paladin, Secret paladin with Nzoth blah blah. I find totally entitled to play Nzoth in paladin decks because Tirion but I was always hessitant of why I should put him in other decks who dont have a class specific deathrattle minion like paladin, Hunter, rogue do.
So I guess its just too good not to be included. And as far I have seen, the best counter is Kazakus mass polymorph or a better Nzoth or Twisting Nether. But Wild is wild. If Nzoth gets stronger then somethingg else is also going to get stronger.
FOR THE HORDE!
People would have played the powerful Deathrattles either way; Deathrattle is a good way of being rewarded for having your minion killed/makes trades more valuable, and is much better than a vanilla minion with the same stats.
Sludge Belcher blocks 7 damage over two bodies compared to Senjin's 5 damage over one body, for one extra mana. Saw play even without N'zoth.
Problem is, it make other big minion never see play, because why not play Nzoth instead? Thats the same reason why they dump Rag and Syl to Wild. Thats what they call" limit design space"
The best counter vs. Nzoth is aggro and wild is mostly aggro. Control decks are mostly renolock/priest where they have Kaza for the 10 mana poly potion.
N'Zoth is fantastically designed card that doesn't limit the design space for following reasons:
1. You can only have one
2. There's no guarantee you'll pull it out
3. It summons random minions
4. Only minions summoned are the ones that died (polymorphed, hexed, entombed are not summoned)
5. It can summon a maximum of 6 minions
Unless there are some crazy value lowcost deathrattle minions printed (which won't happen), there's no reason to worry about. While he is not a win more card, there are certainly more than enough condition too meet to make him an actual win card. Even then, it's very possible to survive. I played games where i shadowstepped him twice and still lost.
Every card is limiting design space. Lets nerf them all.
Thing from Below, Alley Armorsmith, Second-Rate Bruiser, Bloodhoof Brave, Faceless Shambler, Twilight Guardian, Wyrmrest Agent, just to mention the good ones.
I think he's a blessing, keeps the lid on jade druid in wild.
無敵のゲルマン魂#2276