So, I had occasion to watch the Kolento v Hunterace playoff match, which was a Conjurer's Mage mirror match and that has finally made me see the light on something Kibler has been saying for years.
The issue is not Conjurer's Calling. The issue is Mountain Giant.
You see these guys carefully play the board around Sea Giant, and Kolento even boards out Luna's Pocket Galaxy against the mirror, but in the end it's just a matter of who is on the coin and whether that person has a Mountain Giant in his top 8.
If someone refuses to acknowledge that they can get Sea Giant'ed and plays out a full board, they deserve to get multipe 10 drops on turn 6. But, there is no playing around your opponent's hand size. In much the same way as Saronite Chain Gang made Shudderwock the problem, the correct solution was not to ban or cripple Shudderwock. Change the source of this interaction . . . along with countless other problematic interactions across the years . . . and HoF the Rock once and for all.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Another solution would be to let CC summon minions with their modified instead of the original mana cost. So, if you played e.g. Mountain Giant for 4 mana you get two 4- instead of 12-drops. That way you won't have to HoF the giant or introduce other 12-drops with shitty stats. There's a reason why Molten Giant was permanently sent to Wild but I don't see why we should butcher classic archetypes such as Handlock. See, some archetypes (e.g. Tempo Rogue) will always disappear and reappear unless they totally rework the class core sets which probably won't happen.
Another solution would be to let CC summon minions with their modified instead of the original mana cost. So, if you played e.g. Mountain Giant for 4 mana you get two 4- instead of 12-drops. That way you won't have to HoF the giant or introduce other 12-drops with shitty stats. There's a reason why Molten Giant was permanently sent to Wild but I don't see why we should butcher classic archetypes such as Handlock. See, some archetypes (e.g. Tempo Rogue) will always disappear and reappear unless they totally rework the class core sets which probably won't happen.
I like your attempt in balancing. We will see how Blizzard will see this and change interactions we are used to. That may be the biggest issue of all. How do you communicate this game change to casual player who do not look up on internet sites or their website to understand a major balancing change.
mage in ots self is a problem u have frezze u have card generation to get more freeze or secrets or mirror images , get conjurers call its not only the giants its the whole deck atm that is broken and doesnt feel good to play against u just need to have luck or u cant do anything against it , 1000 card draws and generations freeze clear idk and its getting worse with the new quest warrior and mage big problem right now look at warrior win rates on hs replay its the same problem as with tempo rogue before nerf so why they dont react to that
tell me exactly why anyone cares? if the deck is so overpowered play the deck yourself and win then. What exactly is anyone trying to win playing this game anyway? After you get your shit-brown card back what else are you trying to win? There is NOTHING to win in Hearthstone. it's a game where you collect cards and waste time playing. WHAT DO YOU FUCKING WIN PLEASE TELL ME, I'd like to know. The bitching and whining stems from these decks keeping you from winning exactly WHAT?
mage in ots self is a problem u have frezze u have card generation to get more freeze or secrets or mirror images , get conjurers call its not only the giants its the whole deck atm that is broken and doesnt feel good to play against u just need to have luck or u cant do anything against it , 1000 card draws and generations freeze clear idk and its getting worse with the new quest warrior and mage big problem right now look at warrior win rates on hs replay its the same problem as with tempo rogue before nerf so why they dont react to that
Mech Hunter has better winrates than both mages and warrior on ladder so it's not only about that. I'm sure the only "broken" thing right now is conjueres calling along mountain giant. You can play around Sea Giant and antonidas to some point, but there is literally no comeback for a lot of decks when they draw the ginat and cc early. The card generation is more fun than really competitive i'd say but helps the overall deck strategy until they hit their broken turns.
And please do not extand the discussion, because here is the place to discuss conjurers calling.
tell me exactly why anyone cares? if the deck is so overpowered play the deck yourself and win then. What exactly is anyone trying to win playing this game anyway? After you get your shit-brown card back what else are you trying to win? There is NOTHING to win in Hearthstone. it's a game where you collect cards and waste time playing. WHAT DO YOU FUCKING WIN PLEASE TELL ME, I'd like to know. The bitching and whining stems from these decks keeping you from winning exactly WHAT?
tell me exactly why anyone cares? if the deck is so overpowered play the deck yourself and win then. What exactly is anyone trying to win playing this game anyway? After you get your shit-brown card back what else are you trying to win? There is NOTHING to win in Hearthstone. it's a game where you collect cards and waste time playing. WHAT DO YOU FUCKING WIN PLEASE TELL ME, I'd like to know. The bitching and whining stems from these decks keeping you from winning exactly WHAT?
are you that cocky to point out something .0000000000001 of players will actually get or you just can't come up with anything plausible? So you are telling me big priest is keeping p[eople from winning tournament prize money? Get real dude. Just the answer I expected from the peanut gallery. If that was the case bots would be in tournaments. Sorry, but if I wanted to win money playing cards I'd play poker at the casino son, not hearthstone. So again what are these kids whining for about not winning?
tell me exactly why anyone cares? if the deck is so overpowered play the deck yourself and win then. What exactly is anyone trying to win playing this game anyway? After you get your shit-brown card back what else are you trying to win? There is NOTHING to win in Hearthstone. it's a game where you collect cards and waste time playing. WHAT DO YOU FUCKING WIN PLEASE TELL ME, I'd like to know. The bitching and whining stems from these decks keeping you from winning exactly WHAT?
The problem is not the meta... The card by itself is VERY overpowered... that is the problem. Its effect for it mana cost (+ twinspell) is really strong. I think it should cost actually 5. But at least a nerf to 4 would help a bit (and it would still be considered a really strong card).
But it becomes a problem if "fixing" the card breaks the meta, which it would. Warriors are already bad enough. There's no way I'd support nerfing Mage in any way while Dr. Boom exists.
U can fix the meta on many different ways... If you keep the card just bc it "put warriors on check atm", it will still be a problem in the future with new exps. This card is going to be on standard pool for more 5 expansions with different metas (and forever at wild).
If they dont fix the card, it will be always extremely overpowered.
Another solution would be to let CC summon minions with their modified instead of the original mana cost. So, if you played e.g. Mountain Giant for 4 mana you get two 4- instead of 12-drops. That way you won't have to HoF the giant or introduce other 12-drops with shitty stats. There's a reason why Molten Giant was permanently sent to Wild but I don't see why we should butcher classic archetypes such as Handlock. See, some archetypes (e.g. Tempo Rogue) will always disappear and reappear unless they totally rework the class core sets which probably won't happen.
I'm afraid your change won't happen. Why? Because reasons, reasons only Blizzard knows.
And Molten Giant was sent to Wild not because he was too powerful, but because they wanted Handlock to disappear from Standard.
tell me exactly why anyone cares? if the deck is so overpowered play the deck yourself and win then. What exactly is anyone trying to win playing this game anyway? After you get your shit-brown card back what else are you trying to win? There is NOTHING to win in Hearthstone. it's a game where you collect cards and waste time playing. WHAT DO YOU FUCKING WIN PLEASE TELL ME, I'd like to know. The bitching and whining stems from these decks keeping you from winning exactly WHAT?
It's like the anti-Kaladin. Nega-Kaladin if you will.
Warnerve75 reminds me of my father's roommate in college in the 70s. He learned how to make LSD in the college chemistry lab, and brought a whole batch to a cabin somewhere. Turns out, after he starts tripping, he realizes the only two books in the cabin are written by Nietzsche and Milton Friedman.
Bad times. Very bad times.
On a side note, I don't know whether to be proud that I know how to spell Nietzsche without looking it up, or ashamed that the only reason I know is the Epic Rap Battles of History channel.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Conjurer's Calling needs to be nerfed. Not in constructed play, but in Arena. The card needs to be banned from card selection pools, like Vicious Fledgling once was. If the Mage lands even a single powerful minion on the board and you can't clear it, it turns into a shitshow and the opponent can't do anything about it. You can't play around it and it wins or costs you the game, on the spot.
While it might "feel bad" to lose against Cyclone Mage, it's always worth taking a look at the numbers when proposing card nerfs - the deck is quite popular, but struggles to win as often as it loses, with an overall win-rate fractionally above 50%. There are a dozen decks which currently boast better win-rates - is there a legitimate justification for targeting Cyclone Mage, but not the others? If so, it's best to present that justification.
As it is, there will be a new expansion in a few weeks, and no one has the slightest idea what the meta-game will look like a month from now - while we can guess that the deck might improve after launch, it's just as likely that it will be worse off, if new decks emerge which prey upon it, or existing decks improve a little bit more. The deck currently has a win-rate of 50.6% - if it drops off by a point or more, it's entirely likely that its play-rate will drop off as well, and no nerf will be needed.
tell me exactly why anyone cares? if the deck is so overpowered play the deck yourself and win then. What exactly is anyone trying to win playing this game anyway? After you get your shit-brown card back what else are you trying to win? There is NOTHING to win in Hearthstone. it's a game where you collect cards and waste time playing. WHAT DO YOU FUCKING WIN PLEASE TELL ME, I'd like to know. The bitching and whining stems from these decks keeping you from winning exactly WHAT?
People can enjoy playing a game without victory having a prize attached to it. People can take pride in competing for Rank 15, 10, 5, competing for Legend, competing for top 16, top 1, esports tournaments, whatever. People just want what they feel is best for the game and that's their fucking business.
Not everything in life has to have a physical prize for winning.
Nerf a T2 deck.... because you find it oppressive and hate losing to it?
SNOOZE
Take a break from the game. Go try another game. Go out and grab a beer with your friends. Run a 5k for a charity. For the love of God, do anything.... literally anything.... aside from complaining about a T2 deck on here in front of a bunch of strangers.
Conjurer's Calling needs to be nerfed. Not in constructed play, but in Arena. The card needs to be banned from card selection pools, like Vicious Fledgling once was. If the Mage lands even a single powerful minion on the board and you can't clear it, it turns into a shitshow and the opponent can't do anything about it. You can't play around it and it wins or costs you the game, on the spot.
Why not remove it in Arena? It's as easy as it sounds.
The problem is not the meta... The card by itself is VERY overpowered... that is the problem. Its effect for it mana cost (+ twinspell) is really strong. I think it should cost actually 5. But at least a nerf to 4 would help a bit (and it would still be considered a really strong card).
But it becomes a problem if "fixing" the card breaks the meta, which it would. Warriors are already bad enough. There's no way I'd support nerfing Mage in any way while Dr. Boom exists.
U can fix the meta on many different ways... If you keep the card just bc it "put warriors on check atm", it will still be a problem in the future with new exps. This card is going to be on standard pool for more 5 expansions with different metas (and forever at wild).
If they dont fix the card, it will be always extremely overpowered.
The win rates of the best decks containing this card do not match your narrative of it being overpowered.
There are quite a few decks that beat it, and a few of those beat it pretty severely. Even when Mage is favored against a deck, it's not as strongly favored as most other decks are in their strong match-ups. The played win rate of Conjurer's Calling in Cyclone Mage is only a tiny bit higher than that of Arcane Intellect.
That's not the portrait of a card (or deck) that needs a nerf. it's just a good card that has spawned a decent archetype that some players haven't learned to cope with yet.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So, I had occasion to watch the Kolento v Hunterace playoff match, which was a Conjurer's Mage mirror match and that has finally made me see the light on something Kibler has been saying for years.
The issue is not Conjurer's Calling. The issue is Mountain Giant.
You see these guys carefully play the board around Sea Giant, and Kolento even boards out Luna's Pocket Galaxy against the mirror, but in the end it's just a matter of who is on the coin and whether that person has a Mountain Giant in his top 8.
If someone refuses to acknowledge that they can get Sea Giant'ed and plays out a full board, they deserve to get multipe 10 drops on turn 6. But, there is no playing around your opponent's hand size. In much the same way as Saronite Chain Gang made Shudderwock the problem, the correct solution was not to ban or cripple Shudderwock. Change the source of this interaction . . . along with countless other problematic interactions across the years . . . and HoF the Rock once and for all.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Another solution would be to let CC summon minions with their modified instead of the original mana cost. So, if you played e.g. Mountain Giant for 4 mana you get two 4- instead of 12-drops. That way you won't have to HoF the giant or introduce other 12-drops with shitty stats. There's a reason why Molten Giant was permanently sent to Wild but I don't see why we should butcher classic archetypes such as Handlock. See, some archetypes (e.g. Tempo Rogue) will always disappear and reappear unless they totally rework the class core sets which probably won't happen.
I like your attempt in balancing. We will see how Blizzard will see this and change interactions we are used to. That may be the biggest issue of all. How do you communicate this game change to casual player who do not look up on internet sites or their website to understand a major balancing change.
mage in ots self is a problem u have frezze u have card generation to get more freeze or secrets or mirror images , get conjurers call its not only the giants its the whole deck atm that is broken and doesnt feel good to play against u just need to have luck or u cant do anything against it , 1000 card draws and generations freeze clear idk and its getting worse with the new quest warrior and mage big problem right now look at warrior win rates on hs replay its the same problem as with tempo rogue before nerf so why they dont react to that
tell me exactly why anyone cares? if the deck is so overpowered play the deck yourself and win then. What exactly is anyone trying to win playing this game anyway? After you get your shit-brown card back what else are you trying to win? There is NOTHING to win in Hearthstone. it's a game where you collect cards and waste time playing. WHAT DO YOU FUCKING WIN PLEASE TELL ME, I'd like to know. The bitching and whining stems from these decks keeping you from winning exactly WHAT?
Mech Hunter has better winrates than both mages and warrior on ladder so it's not only about that. I'm sure the only "broken" thing right now is conjueres calling along mountain giant. You can play around Sea Giant and antonidas to some point, but there is literally no comeback for a lot of decks when they draw the ginat and cc early. The card generation is more fun than really competitive i'd say but helps the overall deck strategy until they hit their broken turns.
And please do not extand the discussion, because here is the place to discuss conjurers calling.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearthstone_in_esports
Well, up to $1 million for starters...
are you that cocky to point out something .0000000000001 of players will actually get or you just can't come up with anything plausible? So you are telling me big priest is keeping p[eople from winning tournament prize money? Get real dude. Just the answer I expected from the peanut gallery. If that was the case bots would be in tournaments. Sorry, but if I wanted to win money playing cards I'd play poker at the casino son, not hearthstone. So again what are these kids whining for about not winning?
That applies to a fraction of 1 percent of the player base.
No matter how big the kitty is, it's utterly meaningless to most of us.
Even the esports spectators amount to a small fraction of the total Hearthstone player base.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
U can fix the meta on many different ways... If you keep the card just bc it "put warriors on check atm", it will still be a problem in the future with new exps. This card is going to be on standard pool for more 5 expansions with different metas (and forever at wild).
If they dont fix the card, it will be always extremely overpowered.
I'm afraid your change won't happen. Why? Because reasons, reasons only Blizzard knows.
And Molten Giant was sent to Wild not because he was too powerful, but because they wanted Handlock to disappear from Standard.
It's like the anti-Kaladin. Nega-Kaladin if you will.
Warnerve75 reminds me of my father's roommate in college in the 70s. He learned how to make LSD in the college chemistry lab, and brought a whole batch to a cabin somewhere. Turns out, after he starts tripping, he realizes the only two books in the cabin are written by Nietzsche and Milton Friedman.
Bad times. Very bad times.
On a side note, I don't know whether to be proud that I know how to spell Nietzsche without looking it up, or ashamed that the only reason I know is the Epic Rap Battles of History channel.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
Conjurer's Calling needs to be nerfed. Not in constructed play, but in Arena. The card needs to be banned from card selection pools, like Vicious Fledgling once was. If the Mage lands even a single powerful minion on the board and you can't clear it, it turns into a shitshow and the opponent can't do anything about it. You can't play around it and it wins or costs you the game, on the spot.
While it might "feel bad" to lose against Cyclone Mage, it's always worth taking a look at the numbers when proposing card nerfs - the deck is quite popular, but struggles to win as often as it loses, with an overall win-rate fractionally above 50%. There are a dozen decks which currently boast better win-rates - is there a legitimate justification for targeting Cyclone Mage, but not the others? If so, it's best to present that justification.
As it is, there will be a new expansion in a few weeks, and no one has the slightest idea what the meta-game will look like a month from now - while we can guess that the deck might improve after launch, it's just as likely that it will be worse off, if new decks emerge which prey upon it, or existing decks improve a little bit more. The deck currently has a win-rate of 50.6% - if it drops off by a point or more, it's entirely likely that its play-rate will drop off as well, and no nerf will be needed.
I'd prefer they just Hall of Fame Mountain Giant. Conjurer's Calling isn't too absurd without yet another overplayed Classic Set card.
People can enjoy playing a game without victory having a prize attached to it. People can take pride in competing for Rank 15, 10, 5, competing for Legend, competing for top 16, top 1, esports tournaments, whatever. People just want what they feel is best for the game and that's their fucking business.
Not everything in life has to have a physical prize for winning.
Nerf a T2 deck.... because you find it oppressive and hate losing to it?
SNOOZE
Take a break from the game. Go try another game. Go out and grab a beer with your friends. Run a 5k for a charity. For the love of God, do anything.... literally anything.... aside from complaining about a T2 deck on here in front of a bunch of strangers.
Ditto. I recommend Shards of Infinity if you want to try a deck building game for mobile.
Why not remove it in Arena? It's as easy as it sounds.
The win rates of the best decks containing this card do not match your narrative of it being overpowered.
There are quite a few decks that beat it, and a few of those beat it pretty severely. Even when Mage is favored against a deck, it's not as strongly favored as most other decks are in their strong match-ups. The played win rate of Conjurer's Calling in Cyclone Mage is only a tiny bit higher than that of Arcane Intellect.
That's not the portrait of a card (or deck) that needs a nerf. it's just a good card that has spawned a decent archetype that some players haven't learned to cope with yet.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland