"mountain giant is fine, you're just playing a greedy deck if you cant deal with a T4 giant."
Did you just ironically post a pic of you running a greedy deck and then use it as an argument against this quote?
Word to the wise, druid is the only class without good single target removal now courtesy of the naturalize rotation which is why the class in general has been boxed into the token archtype. This isn't a case for mountain giant being OP it's a case of blizzard unnecessarily gimping the class
"mountain giant is fine, you're just playing a greedy deck if you cant deal with a T4 giant."
Did you just ironically post a pic of you running a greedy deck and then use it as an argument against this quote?
Word to the wise, druid is the only class without good single target removal now courtesy of the naturalize rotation which is why the class in general has been boxed into the token archtype. This isn't a case for mountain giant being OP it's a case of blizzard unnecessarily gimping the class
Being non aggro doesn't mean it's a greedy deck.
The point is, because I was unable to remove an 8/8 on turn 4, for some reason it's greedy to not be able to deal with 32/32 in stats on 5. for some reason.
LOL at these HoF threads. Do you guys remember last year when the crowd wanted Malygos to go Hall of Fame? Do you see any competitive deck on ladder that includes Malygos?
So Mountain giant was ok since beta but it was never opressive until RoS. And you know what? It still not the giant, its the combo with Conjurer's calling whats bonkers, even more so with the highroll Khadgar draw. So the solution is to HoF a classic card that was never a problem? I dont think so.
(Sidenote: We wouldnt talk about this if Blizz could nerf BGH properly back in the day and just changed the stats instead of the mana cost, but thats just my opinion. I still think that was a bad nerf.)
So whats the solution? Just print 2 more 12 cost minions in the next expansion with "1/1 Battlecry: do some juicy stuff. Costs 1 less for stuff." Problem solved. But I guess its easier to ask for a HoF if a classic card has an OP interaction with a rotating card.
"mountain giant is fine, you're just playing a greedy deck if you cant deal with a T4 giant."
Did you just ironically post a pic of you running a greedy deck and then use it as an argument against this quote?
Word to the wise, druid is the only class without good single target removal now courtesy of the naturalize rotation which is why the class in general has been boxed into the token archtype. This isn't a case for mountain giant being OP it's a case of blizzard unnecessarily gimping the class
Being non aggro doesn't mean it's a greedy deck.
The point is, because I was unable to remove an 8/8 on turn 4, for some reason it's greedy to not be able to deal with 32/32 in stats on 5. for some reason.
I have to point that out:
You could have played keeper on two (those mage don't run removals) > then double wrathed + trade the giant if he decided to play it on 4.
But instead you decided to draw cards... twice. and wasted one of your wrath.
Also I don't have your deck so obviously I can't judge it, but this hand doesn't scream "not greedy" to me: 2 witching hours that are unplayable until you play a 5 mana card (which you have to draw), an ancient of lore that's a bit outdated and is only included because of its potential synergy with lucentdark.
And you could still play coin bgh as an out in that position (granted you have to draw it first, which unfortunately happens less often that I wish it did).
Also, blame blizzard for Hofaming naturalize. not mountain giant for doing what it was already able to do
You can't HOF mountain giant without getting rid of sea giant as well. I think getting rid of moltens was stupid, if they were still around control warlock would be viable rn. Also Priest would still have 7/8 giants that are basically free most of the time even if you axed all the giants from standard.
While I may or may not agree to the HOF of Mountain Giant, it is very unfun to play against if the Mage hits the perfect turns. Turn 4 Mountain Giant, then turn 5, turn them into 2 big minions with the Calling spell.
There is no counter play to this unless you are certain decks. Like Rogue will just Sap one or both of them. Brawl doesn't feel too good either because, they just Calling the minion that was remaining to create 2 more.
Shaman can't even Scheme because it hasn't had enough turns to build up.
The Giants deck reward greedy hands and greedy mulligans. And since there is no way to punish this style of play, it feels like you are at the mercy of 'did they draw the Giant and Calling spell'? If they did, they win. That is not a skill testing deck to play or play against.
All decks should be able to kill an 8-8 on turn 4 or 5 with minions, spells, buff or weapons... If you don't kill it vs mage YOU were greedy and deserve to lose.
Sure, but can all decks do that? I know the Giant is coming on turn 4 from Warlock or Mage based on how the first 2 turns are carried out. Just because I know it's coming doesn't mean I get to draw an answer magically. Go ahead and list all the classes and strongest decks right now and see if you can answer a turn 4 Giant every single time. And when you get to have your Christmas land scenario, I also get to counter that as well. Because if I am Warlock or Mage, I can play a Doomsayer the turn before and you ALSO have to answer that card. So now you are asking decks to answer 2 cards for decks that get rewarded for doing nothing but drawing cards the first 3 turns of the game.
Shaman gets Hex. Ok, what if you don't draw Hex. Are your totems going to kill a Giant? If you play small minions, Warlock can deal with your threats one for one or two for one you. Mage can play 1 small minion and ping OR simply play Doomsayer.
Paladin USED to have an answer with Equality. But Equality costing 4 means you need to stick a minion the turn before and not lose it. Then 2 for 1 yourself as you play equality and trade the minion in. You could try and weapon up the turn before, but most decks including Mage and Warlock decks are playing weapon removal.
So please, enlighten us to how ALL decks should be able to kill an 8/8 and if they can't they were playing greedy?
You know what deck has the best chance against Giants on turn 4? Rogue. Sap for 2 mana buys you enough time to build your board more and keep the pressure on. Name another 2 mana spell that does the same thing in other classes?
Here is the issue that you don't seem to understand. Even if I Hex a Giant on turn 4. Yeah, I did it. I dealt with it. But NOT only did I not further MY board, the Mage or Warlock can play ANOTHER big minion, including ANOTHER Giant. And now I have to have ANOTHER answer. I am playing defensively against a CONTROL deck. If you are playing defensively against a Control deck, you already lost. You beat control decks by making proactive and aggressive plays.
If all you ever do is spend the WHOLE turn killing a Giant, the opposing player still gets to play their game plan the next turn without needing to waste tempo dealing with your board. But if you don't kill the Giant on turn 4 against Mage, now you have to deal with 2 Big Threats.
Then play aggro or ignore the giant. Like jeezus christ buddy this is a card game and you can easily tech against this shit or make your deck aggresive enough where the giants don't mean anything. One of my favorite quotes you gave is "What if you don't draw hex." Lol, fucking stupid. "WhAT iF tHeY dON't DrAw MoUnTaIN gIaNt." LIke come on buddy this is a pointless ass thread.
Let's see...I attempt to lay out an explanation and ask for some counter points or analysis. Instead we get your comments. I suppose this is the level of intellect we get from the forums. Read my comments again and point out where I said that THIS CARD SHOULD BE NERFED! Nope, I am simply offering arguments for why it could need to get looked at for Hall of Fame.
It's cool. Your attempt at attacking me or calling me 'fucking stupid' are childish, as are your points you are trying to make.
ignore him. You gave out a thoughtful analysis I agree with as well even being a Mage main.
While I may or may not agree to the HOF of Mountain Giant, it is very unfun to play against if the Mage hits the perfect turns. Turn 4 Mountain Giant, then turn 5, turn them into 2 big minions with the Calling spell.
There is no counter play to this unless you are certain decks. Like Rogue will just Sap one or both of them. Brawl doesn't feel too good either because, they just Calling the minion that was remaining to create 2 more.
Shaman can't even Scheme because it hasn't had enough turns to build up.
The Giants deck reward greedy hands and greedy mulligans. And since there is no way to punish this style of play, it feels like you are at the mercy of 'did they draw the Giant and Calling spell'? If they did, they win. That is not a skill testing deck to play or play against.
All decks should be able to kill an 8-8 on turn 4 or 5 with minions, spells, buff or weapons... If you don't kill it vs mage YOU were greedy and deserve to lose.
Sure, but can all decks do that? I know the Giant is coming on turn 4 from Warlock or Mage based on how the first 2 turns are carried out. Just because I know it's coming doesn't mean I get to draw an answer magically. Go ahead and list all the classes and strongest decks right now and see if you can answer a turn 4 Giant every single time. And when you get to have your Christmas land scenario, I also get to counter that as well. Because if I am Warlock or Mage, I can play a Doomsayer the turn before and you ALSO have to answer that card. So now you are asking decks to answer 2 cards for decks that get rewarded for doing nothing but drawing cards the first 3 turns of the game.
Shaman gets Hex. Ok, what if you don't draw Hex. Are your totems going to kill a Giant? If you play small minions, Warlock can deal with your threats one for one or two for one you. Mage can play 1 small minion and ping OR simply play Doomsayer.
Paladin USED to have an answer with Equality. But Equality costing 4 means you need to stick a minion the turn before and not lose it. Then 2 for 1 yourself as you play equality and trade the minion in. You could try and weapon up the turn before, but most decks including Mage and Warlock decks are playing weapon removal.
So please, enlighten us to how ALL decks should be able to kill an 8/8 and if they can't they were playing greedy?
You know what deck has the best chance against Giants on turn 4? Rogue. Sap for 2 mana buys you enough time to build your board more and keep the pressure on. Name another 2 mana spell that does the same thing in other classes?
Here is the issue that you don't seem to understand. Even if I Hex a Giant on turn 4. Yeah, I did it. I dealt with it. But NOT only did I not further MY board, the Mage or Warlock can play ANOTHER big minion, including ANOTHER Giant. And now I have to have ANOTHER answer. I am playing defensively against a CONTROL deck. If you are playing defensively against a Control deck, you already lost. You beat control decks by making proactive and aggressive plays.
If all you ever do is spend the WHOLE turn killing a Giant, the opposing player still gets to play their game plan the next turn without needing to waste tempo dealing with your board. But if you don't kill the Giant on turn 4 against Mage, now you have to deal with 2 Big Threats.
Then play aggro or ignore the giant. Like jeezus christ buddy this is a card game and you can easily tech against this shit or make your deck aggresive enough where the giants don't mean anything. One of my favorite quotes you gave is "What if you don't draw hex." Lol, fucking stupid. "WhAT iF tHeY dON't DrAw MoUnTaIN gIaNt." LIke come on buddy this is a pointless ass thread.
Let's see...I attempt to lay out an explanation and ask for some counter points or analysis. Instead we get your comments. I suppose this is the level of intellect we get from the forums. Read my comments again and point out where I said that THIS CARD SHOULD BE NERFED! Nope, I am simply offering arguments for why it could need to get looked at for Hall of Fame.
It's cool. Your attempt at attacking me or calling me 'fucking stupid' are childish, as are your points you are trying to make.
ignore him. You gave out a thoughtful analysis I agree with as well even being a Mage main.
No he didn't . if mage is mountain giant on turn 4 he's not affecting the board Paladin could hero power twice and then equality. and that's Mage getting a near perfect draw. Its like he thought out the rarest situation, said "It's impossible" and missed the easiest solution. This is silly, please don't indulge him.
"mountain giant is fine, you're just playing a greedy deck if you cant deal with a T4 giant."
Did you just ironically post a pic of you running a greedy deck and then use it as an argument against this quote?
Word to the wise, druid is the only class without good single target removal now courtesy of the naturalize rotation which is why the class in general has been boxed into the token archtype. This isn't a case for mountain giant being OP it's a case of blizzard unnecessarily gimping the class
Being non aggro doesn't mean it's a greedy deck.
The point is, because I was unable to remove an 8/8 on turn 4, for some reason it's greedy to not be able to deal with 32/32 in stats on 5. for some reason.
I have to point that out:
You could have played keeper on two (those mage don't run removals) > then double wrathed + trade the giant if he decided to play it on 4.
But instead you decided to draw cards... twice. and wasted one of your wrath.
Also I don't have your deck so obviously I can't judge it, but this hand doesn't scream "not greedy" to me: 2 witching hours that are unplayable until you play a 5 mana card (which you have to draw), an ancient of lore that's a bit outdated and is only included because of its potential synergy with lucentdark.
And you could still play coin bgh as an out in that position (granted you have to draw it first, which unfortunately happens less often that I wish it did).
Also, blame blizzard for Hofaming naturalize. not mountain giant for doing what it was already able to do
Keeper + Double Wrath uses three resources to deal with one (potentially more because Keeper is not merely a River Croc), when my win condition in this matchup is "draw Lucentbark and hope they don't have the nuts."
So let's say I play Keeper and Double Wrath. Then they play the second Mountain Giant on 5, double Conjurer's on 6, then Astromancer on 7 and 8, and because I used two cycling cards to remove one threat, I haven't drawn Lucentbark, Faceless, or Gloop Sprayer.
What then?
"You would have lost anyways since your pre-defined win con is "hope they don't draw the nuts" and you just described a scenario where they draw the nuts."
Okay then. Let's say I waste Keeper and double Wrath and they only have.....like....Twilight Drakes and Scaleworms. Because I elected not to draw towards my win con, I also haven't drawn Zilliax, Witchwood Grizzly, or Witching Hour, and I'm taking 10 damage per turn instead of 16+ (good thing I used double Wrath!)
What then?
Since you're clearly more experienced with my own homebrew version of this deck than I am, please advise!
Druid is in no position anymore to deal with a turn 4 Mountain Giant unless they are already on the board, like Token Druid.
Kaladin, I feel the pain, because you don't want to play the tier 1 or 2 deck that Druid is expected to play. Your deck has no answers, UNLESS you draw 3 specific cards, but end up hurting your own game plan. That's not playing to win, thats playing to stay alive.
Sometimes you have to play to win, and that means cycling your Wrath. Playing not to lose means you are behind on board as you are not developing any minions yourself.
A turn 4 Mountain Giant isn't a problem in itself. It's the fact that you can't ignore it now against Mage. or take a few hits from it and eventually kill it 2 turns later. If you do, they simply 'heal' it by killing it and now you have to deal with 2 more big minions. So if anything Giant may not be the problem, but if it's not, then it's certain classes not having answers to what is quite clearly not a fair match up.
Actually the only deck playing it is conjurer mage, and they just win vs warrior and lose vs everything else, so let them the illusion their deck is good.
Remember when 4-mana 7/7 with overload 2 was a problem?
Now we're in a world where 4-mana 8/8 with no downside is totally fine.
There is a downside. Kind of. You have to not play anything for 4 Turns and against Aggro that means you've already lost. Your Ping cannot keep up.
Also I really hope Blizzard don't listen to these whining complaints. Because it's not just Mountain Giant that you guys want to move. If Blizzard HoF it then an entire Archetype goes away. Why?
Every Class has some form of answer by Turn 4-5. And if the Mage doesn't draw thier Mountain Giants then it's an even harder game.
"mountain giant is fine, you're just playing a greedy deck if you cant deal with a T4 giant."
Did you just ironically post a pic of you running a greedy deck and then use it as an argument against this quote?
Word to the wise, druid is the only class without good single target removal now courtesy of the naturalize rotation which is why the class in general has been boxed into the token archtype. This isn't a case for mountain giant being OP it's a case of blizzard unnecessarily gimping the class
Being non aggro doesn't mean it's a greedy deck.
The point is, because I was unable to remove an 8/8 on turn 4, for some reason it's greedy to not be able to deal with 32/32 in stats on 5. for some reason.
I have to point that out:
You could have played keeper on two (those mage don't run removals) > then double wrathed + trade the giant if he decided to play it on 4.
But instead you decided to draw cards... twice. and wasted one of your wrath.
Also I don't have your deck so obviously I can't judge it, but this hand doesn't scream "not greedy" to me: 2 witching hours that are unplayable until you play a 5 mana card (which you have to draw), an ancient of lore that's a bit outdated and is only included because of its potential synergy with lucentdark.
And you could still play coin bgh as an out in that position (granted you have to draw it first, which unfortunately happens less often that I wish it did).
Also, blame blizzard for Hofaming naturalize. not mountain giant for doing what it was already able to do
Keeper + Double Wrath uses three resources to deal with one (potentially more because Keeper is not merely a River Croc), when my win condition in this matchup is "draw Lucentbark and hope they don't have the nuts."
So let's say I play Keeper and Double Wrath. Then they play the second Mountain Giant on 5, double Conjurer's on 6, then Astromancer on 7 and 8, and because I used two cycling cards to remove one threat, I haven't drawn Lucentbark, Faceless, or Gloop Sprayer.
What then?
"You would have lost anyways since your pre-defined win con is "hope they don't draw the nuts" and you just described a scenario where they draw the nuts."
Okay then. Let's say I waste Keeper and double Wrath and they only have.....like....Twilight Drakes and Scaleworms. Because I elected not to draw towards my win con, I also haven't drawn Zilliax, Witchwood Grizzly, or Witching Hour, and I'm taking 10 damage per turn instead of 16+ (good thing I used double Wrath!)
What then?
Since you're clearly more experienced with my own homebrew version of this deck than I am, please advise!
I waste Keeper and double Wrath
It's not wasted since thanks to keeper's effect you'll still get the 2 copies of each chose one in exchange. And nothing stops you from using it on twilight drake too. (it's not as good obviously, but you'll get the draw and the copies giving you more flexibility later on)
the worst case scenario with that line of play would be indeed Scaleworms, but facing a 5/2 is still much better than facing a 8/8, delaying the 8/8 for one more turn allowing you to play something like BGH (if you run it, and imo you should run it in "control" druid - as I said, control decks should always have hard removals to ever hope to be viable).
potentially more because Keeper is not merely a River Croc
it's worse than river croc if you never play it because you die before having the opportunity to use its effect. (and sorry, but i'm going to call you greedy again on this one)
It's your job to adapt to your opponent's gameplan. If your opponent's best play is playing an 8/8 on turn 4, it's your job to set up to have an answer to that 8/8. Especialy if the way you're "punished" is by a play that's worse than the 8/8 alternative. I remember back in the handlock meta, I would often play either doomsayer (if control) or mirror entity (if aggro/midrange) on 3. And yeah, mirror entity would often be baited out, but that was fine: I delayed their giant for one more turn, which would allow me to set up for a better board, or fish for more answers.
Your gameplan with lucentdark druid, i guess, is to at least reach the point where you can play lucentdark to even hope to have a chance. (also hope it's not silenced/ polymorphed I guess, unless you also have to wait for floop, which means you have to delay the card even more to hope to be able to play it).
Don't get me wrong, even with all of this, you still would be unfavored against that particular mage deck, but that's because control druid is really weak anyway. It has no hard removals, no board clears. these are pretty glaring weaknesses for a "control" deck. And it even lost the only advantage druid had over the other classes: its ramp. I'm not sure how you're supposed to make a good control deck without any of these to be honest. (and that's for any cards game, not just hearthstone).
Or is that irrelevant because Casual doesn't exist, and it's my fault for not net-decking Ladder Practice Mode?
I made this deck to be fun, not to be competitive against ladder decks. Yes the game plan is "get to turn 8 and play Lucentbark," and every other card in the deck supports that.
Yes Mountain Giant is a problem. Yes it is mostly a problem in one class that historically has never had a reason to run it (prior to Book of Specters).
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Or is that irrelevant because Casual doesn't exist, and it's my fault for not net-decking Ladder Practice Mode?
This is an entirely different debate, (on which I agree with you). Your opponent could be playing tempo Rogue, Token Druid, control warrior, and that problem would still exist.
I made this deck to be fun, not to be competitive against ladder decks. Yes the game plan is "get to turn 8 and play Lucentbark," and every other card in the deck supports that.
Maybe the deck just doesn't work. Believe me I try to make impossible fun archetype work and bashed my head against a wall of meta decks on a regular basis. I tried to make Anub'arak rogue work (which is still my favorite card ever printed tbh)
Just this expansion I tried to make plot twist warlock work, with many different variants. One with portal demons. One with fel lord beltrug and dollmaster dorian. One with and without augmented elekk. And obviously I also ended up bashing my head against a wall. (in that specific case it was a wall of tempo rogues)
Sometimes those fun cards you desperately want to make working just don't work. (or at least not yet until next expansion if we're being optimistic). And it's not just mountain giant's fault
All of this hysteria over Mountain Giant reminds me of the panic over Hadronox. Remember when that card was considered a joke? Then suddenly some new cards are released that realise its potential and Taunt Druid is born.
It wasn't the fault of Hadronox. It's the same with Mountain Giant. It wasn't considered a problem, even in EvenLock/HandLock Decks, but now there is one card that makes full use of it, its oppressive and awful and OP and needs to be HoF' d to calm the masses.
Bollocks. Just deal with it. The deck itself isn't great and loses hard to any other Deck that has some sort of Board Presence by Turn 4-5.
I see a lot of people on these Forums claiming that they are great at Hearthstone and then moaning about a Tier 2 Deck that would dissappear without Mountain Giant.
Yes, I play the deck. And have done quite a bit these last few weeks. That's how I know it's not as bad as people are saying.
Or is that irrelevant because Casual doesn't exist, and it's my fault for not net-decking Ladder Practice Mode?
This is an entirely different debate, (on which I agree with you). Your opponent could be playing tempo Rogue, Token Druid, control warrior, and that problem would still exist.
I made this deck to be fun, not to be competitive against ladder decks. Yes the game plan is "get to turn 8 and play Lucentbark," and every other card in the deck supports that.
Maybe the deck just doesn't work. Believe me I try to make impossible fun archetype work and bashed my head against a wall of meta decks on a regular basis. I tried to make Anub'arak rogue work (which is still my favorite card ever printed tbh)
Just this expansion I tried to make plot twist warlock work, with many different variants. One with portal demons. One with fel lord beltrug and dollmaster dorian. One with and without augmented elekk. And obviously I also ended up bashing my head against a wall. (in that specific case it was a wall of tempo rogues)
Sometimes those fun cards you desperately want to make working just don't work. (or at least not yet until next expansion if we're being optimistic). And it's not just mountain giant's fault
It actually does well against aggro, and has a pretty decent chance against Warrior. No one is running Silence right now (so...it's pretty bad against Silence Priest interestingly) and against Control Shaman it's almost certainly bad unless you can get multiple Lucentbarks going before they draw Hex.
But because Lackey Rogue has Sap and because Big Mage floods the board with a million big things, any control deck that doesn't have significant life gain and board clears is unplayable. I tried making a good control priest and it doesn't exist.
I added double Giant to my Lucentbark Heal Druid and it's been a good choice so far.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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"mountain giant is fine, you're just playing a greedy deck if you cant deal with a T4 giant."
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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Did you just ironically post a pic of you running a greedy deck and then use it as an argument against this quote?
Word to the wise, druid is the only class without good single target removal now courtesy of the naturalize rotation which is why the class in general has been boxed into the token archtype. This isn't a case for mountain giant being OP it's a case of blizzard unnecessarily gimping the class
Being non aggro doesn't mean it's a greedy deck.
The point is, because I was unable to remove an 8/8 on turn 4, for some reason it's greedy to not be able to deal with 32/32 in stats on 5. for some reason.
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LOL at these HoF threads. Do you guys remember last year when the crowd wanted Malygos to go Hall of Fame? Do you see any competitive deck on ladder that includes Malygos?
So Mountain giant was ok since beta but it was never opressive until RoS. And you know what? It still not the giant, its the combo with Conjurer's calling whats bonkers, even more so with the highroll Khadgar draw. So the solution is to HoF a classic card that was never a problem? I dont think so.
(Sidenote: We wouldnt talk about this if Blizz could nerf BGH properly back in the day and just changed the stats instead of the mana cost, but thats just my opinion. I still think that was a bad nerf.)
So whats the solution? Just print 2 more 12 cost minions in the next expansion with "1/1 Battlecry: do some juicy stuff. Costs 1 less for stuff." Problem solved. But I guess its easier to ask for a HoF if a classic card has an OP interaction with a rotating card.
I have to point that out:
You could have played keeper on two (those mage don't run removals) > then double wrathed + trade the giant if he decided to play it on 4.
But instead you decided to draw cards... twice. and wasted one of your wrath.
Also I don't have your deck so obviously I can't judge it, but this hand doesn't scream "not greedy" to me: 2 witching hours that are unplayable until you play a 5 mana card (which you have to draw), an ancient of lore that's a bit outdated and is only included because of its potential synergy with lucentdark.
And you could still play coin bgh as an out in that position (granted you have to draw it first, which unfortunately happens less often that I wish it did).
Also, blame blizzard for Hofaming naturalize. not mountain giant for doing what it was already able to do
You can't HOF mountain giant without getting rid of sea giant as well. I think getting rid of moltens was stupid, if they were still around control warlock would be viable rn. Also Priest would still have 7/8 giants that are basically free most of the time even if you axed all the giants from standard.
Paladin 1 hp 29 armor turn 3 3/4 8/8 8/8. -_-
Fun > Meta
ignore him. You gave out a thoughtful analysis I agree with as well even being a Mage main.
I eat Kingsbane rogues for breakfast.
No he didn't . if mage is mountain giant on turn 4 he's not affecting the board Paladin could hero power twice and then equality. and that's Mage getting a near perfect draw. Its like he thought out the rarest situation, said "It's impossible" and missed the easiest solution. This is silly, please don't indulge him.
Keeper + Double Wrath uses three resources to deal with one (potentially more because Keeper is not merely a River Croc), when my win condition in this matchup is "draw Lucentbark and hope they don't have the nuts."
So let's say I play Keeper and Double Wrath. Then they play the second Mountain Giant on 5, double Conjurer's on 6, then Astromancer on 7 and 8, and because I used two cycling cards to remove one threat, I haven't drawn Lucentbark, Faceless, or Gloop Sprayer.
What then?
"You would have lost anyways since your pre-defined win con is "hope they don't draw the nuts" and you just described a scenario where they draw the nuts."
Okay then. Let's say I waste Keeper and double Wrath and they only have.....like....Twilight Drakes and Scaleworms. Because I elected not to draw towards my win con, I also haven't drawn Zilliax, Witchwood Grizzly, or Witching Hour, and I'm taking 10 damage per turn instead of 16+ (good thing I used double Wrath!)
What then?
Since you're clearly more experienced with my own homebrew version of this deck than I am, please advise!
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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Druid is in no position anymore to deal with a turn 4 Mountain Giant unless they are already on the board, like Token Druid.
Kaladin, I feel the pain, because you don't want to play the tier 1 or 2 deck that Druid is expected to play. Your deck has no answers, UNLESS you draw 3 specific cards, but end up hurting your own game plan. That's not playing to win, thats playing to stay alive.
Sometimes you have to play to win, and that means cycling your Wrath. Playing not to lose means you are behind on board as you are not developing any minions yourself.
A turn 4 Mountain Giant isn't a problem in itself. It's the fact that you can't ignore it now against Mage. or take a few hits from it and eventually kill it 2 turns later. If you do, they simply 'heal' it by killing it and now you have to deal with 2 more big minions. So if anything Giant may not be the problem, but if it's not, then it's certain classes not having answers to what is quite clearly not a fair match up.
Remember when 4-mana 7/7 with overload 2 was a problem?
Now we're in a world where 4-mana 8/8 with no downside is totally fine.
Kaladin's RoS Set Review
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No need to nerf Mountain Giant:
Actually the only deck playing it is conjurer mage, and they just win vs warrior and lose vs everything else, so let them the illusion their deck is good.
There is a downside. Kind of. You have to not play anything for 4 Turns and against Aggro that means you've already lost. Your Ping cannot keep up.
Also I really hope Blizzard don't listen to these whining complaints. Because it's not just Mountain Giant that you guys want to move. If Blizzard HoF it then an entire Archetype goes away. Why?
Every Class has some form of answer by Turn 4-5. And if the Mage doesn't draw thier Mountain Giants then it's an even harder game.
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
It's not wasted since thanks to keeper's effect you'll still get the 2 copies of each chose one in exchange. And nothing stops you from using it on twilight drake too. (it's not as good obviously, but you'll get the draw and the copies giving you more flexibility later on)
the worst case scenario with that line of play would be indeed Scaleworms, but facing a 5/2 is still much better than facing a 8/8, delaying the 8/8 for one more turn allowing you to play something like BGH (if you run it, and imo you should run it in "control" druid - as I said, control decks should always have hard removals to ever hope to be viable).
it's worse than river croc if you never play it because you die before having the opportunity to use its effect. (and sorry, but i'm going to call you greedy again on this one)
It's your job to adapt to your opponent's gameplan. If your opponent's best play is playing an 8/8 on turn 4, it's your job to set up to have an answer to that 8/8. Especialy if the way you're "punished" is by a play that's worse than the 8/8 alternative. I remember back in the handlock meta, I would often play either doomsayer (if control) or mirror entity (if aggro/midrange) on 3. And yeah, mirror entity would often be baited out, but that was fine: I delayed their giant for one more turn, which would allow me to set up for a better board, or fish for more answers.
Your gameplan with lucentdark druid, i guess, is to at least reach the point where you can play lucentdark to even hope to have a chance. (also hope it's not silenced/ polymorphed I guess, unless you also have to wait for floop, which means you have to delay the card even more to hope to be able to play it).
Don't get me wrong, even with all of this, you still would be unfavored against that particular mage deck, but that's because control druid is really weak anyway. It has no hard removals, no board clears. these are pretty glaring weaknesses for a "control" deck. And it even lost the only advantage druid had over the other classes: its ramp. I'm not sure how you're supposed to make a good control deck without any of these to be honest. (and that's for any cards game, not just hearthstone).
Should be talk about how this is in casual?
Or is that irrelevant because Casual doesn't exist, and it's my fault for not net-decking Ladder Practice Mode?
I made this deck to be fun, not to be competitive against ladder decks. Yes the game plan is "get to turn 8 and play Lucentbark," and every other card in the deck supports that.
Yes Mountain Giant is a problem. Yes it is mostly a problem in one class that historically has never had a reason to run it (prior to Book of Specters).
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This is an entirely different debate, (on which I agree with you). Your opponent could be playing tempo Rogue, Token Druid, control warrior, and that problem would still exist.
Maybe the deck just doesn't work. Believe me I try to make impossible fun archetype work and bashed my head against a wall of meta decks on a regular basis. I tried to make Anub'arak rogue work (which is still my favorite card ever printed tbh)
Just this expansion I tried to make plot twist warlock work, with many different variants. One with portal demons. One with fel lord beltrug and dollmaster dorian. One with and without augmented elekk. And obviously I also ended up bashing my head against a wall. (in that specific case it was a wall of tempo rogues)
Sometimes those fun cards you desperately want to make working just don't work. (or at least not yet until next expansion if we're being optimistic). And it's not just mountain giant's fault
All of this hysteria over Mountain Giant reminds me of the panic over Hadronox. Remember when that card was considered a joke? Then suddenly some new cards are released that realise its potential and Taunt Druid is born.
It wasn't the fault of Hadronox. It's the same with Mountain Giant. It wasn't considered a problem, even in EvenLock/HandLock Decks, but now there is one card that makes full use of it, its oppressive and awful and OP and needs to be HoF' d to calm the masses.
Bollocks. Just deal with it. The deck itself isn't great and loses hard to any other Deck that has some sort of Board Presence by Turn 4-5.
I see a lot of people on these Forums claiming that they are great at Hearthstone and then moaning about a Tier 2 Deck that would dissappear without Mountain Giant.
Yes, I play the deck. And have done quite a bit these last few weeks. That's how I know it's not as bad as people are saying.
4/3/19 RIP Keith Flint. 😔
It actually does well against aggro, and has a pretty decent chance against Warrior. No one is running Silence right now (so...it's pretty bad against Silence Priest interestingly) and against Control Shaman it's almost certainly bad unless you can get multiple Lucentbarks going before they draw Hex.
But because Lackey Rogue has Sap and because Big Mage floods the board with a million big things, any control deck that doesn't have significant life gain and board clears is unplayable. I tried making a good control priest and it doesn't exist.
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