Eater of secrets is a horrible tech card. It has a huge downside (crappy stats), and is relatively high cost. Compared to other tech cards which have no downside (hungry crab, golakka, both have stats of a vanilla minion).
Something like a
1 mana 1/2
Battlecry: Destroy all secrets, deal 3 damage to the controlling hero for each secret destroyed.
i don't know how to properly evaluate your card, as i think costing 1 mana is way too powerful (because think about it, you spend 1 mana to destroy expensive value, mage secrets costing 3 mana, and you put them even more in behind), but dealing 3 damage to yourself for each enemy secret (max 15 damage) is ... dunno
if i could suggest an anti-secret tech card myself, it would still be with the stats of Eater of Secrets, but it will draw you a card - something like Gnomish Inventor, inspiration from Flare
Instead of fighting broken with broken, why not just nerf the Secrets that are strong enough to require this kind of bullshit counter?
Because blizzard's style is fighting broken with broken. Look at golakka. Instead of dealing with the bullshit (patches the pirate), they release a different bullshit card.
Because blizzard's style is fighting broken with broken. Look at golakka. Instead of dealing with the bullshit (patches the pirate), they release a different bullshit card.
i wouldn't call golakka being broken, but just a lazy way with dealing with pirate problems
off topic: when i saw the crab for the first time, i burst into laugh - an inner part of me thought "ha, blizzard, is this what you came up with - a crab?" tbh Tar Creeper was a better way to deal with this problem - it was a general answer to aggro and we need more of that, more suitable answers, not narrowed ones
That would basically destroy the playability of secret mage in particular and really secrets overall. A better option would be to either a) increase the stats on eater of secrets or b) improve the quality of secrets in both Paladin and Hunter so that eater of secrets is relevant in more matchups than it is currently. Secrets are too key to the mage class right now for a single card that destroys all secrets AND deals a significant amount of face damage to be included.
I want to spam in this thread with one last thing - this time regarding answers.
So we are aware, that when there's a popular deck in a current meta, blizzard gives us direct answers to it (or to a key card of that deck) in the following expansion. And my question is - why so late? Kripp mentioned, that hs would be in a better spot, if there were constant changes (like once in a month/ two months), some of which are introducing new cards in the current expansion. And imo that would be a great thing, because new viable decks will appear more often. Example: what if we got Eater of Secrets while in the secret pally meta and not right after the rotation? Or with golakka against the pirates back in gadgetzan? A lot more decks would have been rejuvenated, because they could deal with PW or aggro sham - hunter e.g.
i don't know how to properly evaluate your card, as i think costing 1 mana is way too powerful (because think about it, you spend 1 mana to destroy expensive value, mage secrets costing 3 mana, and you put them even more in behind), but dealing 3 damage to yourself for each enemy secret (max 15 damage) is ... dunno
if i could suggest an anti-secret tech card myself, it would still be with the stats of Eater of Secrets, but it will draw you a card - something like Gnomish Inventor, inspiration from Flare
You can't do that, that would basically remove Gnomish Inventor from the game. Very few decks ever used the card, but if Eater of Secrets were to draw a card on top of it's effect, then you would ALWAYS use Eater of Secrets over Gnomish since you would have the neutral effect as Gnomish while still having the possible benefit in certain matchups. (And for decks that used Gnomish, Patron Warrior builds actually used the card)
it's called power creep and it's not something new
patches<-> boar stonehill defender <-> 1/4 taunt kinda the case with tar creeper <-> senjin
and i'm not suggesting a tech card, that gains stats and on top of that to draw a card, but just destroying secrets and recycling itself
Eater of secrets was the counter to secret paladin a menace at the time, meant to counter a multitude of low impact secrets. Kezan Mystic is the perfect counter to mage secrets and should be moved to the classic set for me.
but i just tried to think up of a better anti-secret tech card - because, as we discussed in another thread, Eater of Secrets is just a disaster without the needed condition
Kezan Mystic has a powerful effect, it doesn't destroy all the secrets, but at least in neutral MUs is a mediocre minion;
having to play a plain 4 mana 2/4, because you don't have other better options, is just a dream scenario for every opponent, as their board doesn't feel threatened a 4/3 can at least threaten bigger minions and the opponent may not always have the opportunity to make value trades
as i said, you are right, that adding the effect to recycle itself may make the card an auto-include in almost every single deck, which just like with Azure Drake will mean, that the card is badly designed, but in my defense there is a difference between the tech cards and I aimed to make the anti-secret tech card more like that: - a 3/3 "steal an enemy minion, if..." Mind Control Tech has stats equal to its cost, playing it as a 3/3 is still an OK move, it can be always included in the deck, if the player thinks so - whereas a 2/4 is a desperate thing imo - we have to have a meta, where secret decks are really popular, in order to be worth to include it; not just 2 ones (3 with pala)
1) isn't the suggested OP's card with another effect - like not damaging the enemy, but yourself i don't know, what the "controlling hero" means - for me it's the player, that controlled the tech card
2) (about my post)
It's the best Tech Card design-wise, it punishes it's intended target more and more heavily the more their strategy relies on secrets. It is a great Tech Card, it has a really big impact in it's intended matchups.
As simple as that.
yes, i understand that; it gains stats and a 4 mana destroy the value, which the enemy tries to achieve by paying a lot of mana/resources and tech cards are useless outside the condition - i know
but personally i don't like it - it's not a well designed card for me, it's way too polarized; gaining additional stats is super irrelevant i would like to have a minion, that can do better in many MUs than a one, that handles godlike in some situations (aka vs secret decks)
and like i said in the other thread - it is not a 4/6 vs discover mages, it is a card, which you have to keep in your hand, in order to lay the lethal blow: if you are facing discover/freeze mage, if you play the tech early, then you remove their secrets, but they still have another one in their deck and they can defend themselves, when they find them - block or barrier so this is an example, why the gaining stats effect is not important - you don't use it as a minion, not to mention its stats
However against all other secret decks - pala, hunt and mage - it can gain tremendous stats and it really punishes them heavily, but as much as the card punishes the player not meeting the condition too. I don't like this polarization, this is what bugs me.
Let's wait for a reason to counter secrets first. There's only one secret that is actually strong in the meta at the moment and a few secrets that are played simply because mage has good secret synergy cards. Not to mention that we have eater to deal with them if they ever get out of hand.
Hungry crab is a 1 mana 1/2 that gives an insane bonus when it activates, yet murlocs are still played.
Golakka is a 2 mana 2/3 that also gives a pretty big bonus (2 mana 3/4 is very hard to deal with) when it activates, yet pirates are still played.
Ooze is a 2 mana 3/2 that has no bonus, but has a significant effect for no cost in stats, yet weapons are still played.
A 1 mana 1/2 that destroys all secrets would not stop secrets from being played.
The problem with eater is it's COST, let's say you have lethal with bloodlust, but ice block is in the way, well too bad, even if you teched in eater (and drew it) you can't play both eater and bloodlust most likely. Or if you're playing some maly/combo deck, you probably can't play eater and get your combo off.
The irony right now is the fact that it's mostly mages that play eater, because they can eater and then burn for lethal. It'd be better if an anti-mage tech was good for other classes and sucked for mages, not the other way around.
1) then that's stupidly OP: destroying secrets, dealing damage and only for 1 mana [i also thought about it, when reading it for the first time, but i was just caught up with interpreting the word "controlling"]
2) but that's why i gave an example with kezan and mc tech - both are tech cards, but even if they don't meet the requirements, then they aren't a huge disaster; such as the pirate eating River Crocolisk aka Golakka Crawler - this tech doesn't punish the player that much for playing it, it is a bad late game top deck, but in the early game it serves as a minion, capable of doing trades [i acknowledge the fact, that this tech card can only destroy 1 enemy minion, whereas the Eater of Secrets is capable of destroying more vlaue; that's why its stats are reasonable, but still]
But you can't expect Blizzard to release powerful cards on their own that also serve as Tech Cards, since that would DESTROY any deck that Tech is good against.
Let me put this in a more understandable way. Blizzard can't print a 4 Mana 4/5 Eater of Secrets that draws a card, because this card will be included in EVERY single deck. That makes Secrets IMPOSSIBLE to use. It removes ALL kind of compromise you have to make to be better against Secrets. Do you want Secrets to be completely unusable?
i just want a bit more flexible and not necessarily OP tech, just not extremely clumsy a plain eater of secrets with a bit better vanilla stats would be better than a 2/4 that gains stats for each secret
ending: i don't want, that we both end up repeating our arguments and falling into a vicious circle, i understand how we have different opinions about this card and i respect that: you review it as a very good designed card, doing wonders in the right situation and serving its purpose as a balanced tech card; i - ... [the posts above :D]
Eater of secrets is a horrible tech card. It has a huge downside (crappy stats), and is relatively high cost. Compared to other tech cards which have no downside (hungry crab, golakka, both have stats of a vanilla minion).
Something like a
1 mana 1/2
Battlecry: Destroy all secrets, deal 3 damage to the controlling hero for each secret destroyed.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
Instead of fighting broken with broken, why not just nerf the Secrets that are strong enough to require this kind of bullshit counter?
Make the Card: The biggest thread on the site!
My mandibles which are capable of pressing down and tearing, my talons which are known to intercept and hold.
what a bad card
i don't know how to properly evaluate your card, as i think costing 1 mana is way too powerful (because think about it, you spend 1 mana to destroy expensive value, mage secrets costing 3 mana, and you put them even more in behind), but dealing 3 damage to yourself for each enemy secret (max 15 damage) is ... dunno
if i could suggest an anti-secret tech card myself, it would still be with the stats of Eater of Secrets, but it will draw you a card - something like Gnomish Inventor, inspiration from Flare
I agree we need actual cards to counter secrets. A one drop is unworkable however. I want a card I can actually use in midrange/control decks.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
when i saw the crab for the first time, i burst into laugh - an inner part of me thought "ha, blizzard, is this what you came up with - a crab?"
tbh Tar Creeper was a better way to deal with this problem - it was a general answer to aggro and we need more of that, more suitable answers, not narrowed ones
That would basically destroy the playability of secret mage in particular and really secrets overall. A better option would be to either a) increase the stats on eater of secrets or b) improve the quality of secrets in both Paladin and Hunter so that eater of secrets is relevant in more matchups than it is currently. Secrets are too key to the mage class right now for a single card that destroys all secrets AND deals a significant amount of face damage to be included.
I want to spam in this thread with one last thing - this time regarding answers.
So we are aware, that when there's a popular deck in a current meta, blizzard gives us direct answers to it (or to a key card of that deck) in the following expansion. And my question is - why so late? Kripp mentioned, that hs would be in a better spot, if there were constant changes (like once in a month/ two months), some of which are introducing new cards in the current expansion. And imo that would be a great thing, because new viable decks will appear more often. Example: what if we got Eater of Secrets while in the secret pally meta and not right after the rotation? Or with golakka against the pirates back in gadgetzan? A lot more decks would have been rejuvenated, because they could deal with PW or aggro sham - hunter e.g.
stonehill defender <-> 1/4 taunt
kinda the case with tar creeper <-> senjin
A 1 mana vanilla 1/2 is NOT good in a normal matchup.
It just puts it on par with other tech cards
Hungry crab: 1 mana 1/2
Golakka: 2 mana 2/3
Ooze (regular): 2 mana 3/2
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
Eater of secrets was the counter to secret paladin a menace at the time, meant to counter a multitude of low impact secrets. Kezan Mystic is the perfect counter to mage secrets and should be moved to the classic set for me.
fair points, i agree
but i just tried to think up of a better anti-secret tech card - because, as we discussed in another thread, Eater of Secrets is just a disaster without the needed condition
Kezan Mystic has a powerful effect, it doesn't destroy all the secrets, but at least in neutral MUs is a mediocre minion;
having to play a plain 4 mana 2/4, because you don't have other better options, is just a dream scenario for every opponent, as their board doesn't feel threatened
a 4/3 can at least threaten bigger minions and the opponent may not always have the opportunity to make value trades
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
as i said, you are right, that adding the effect to recycle itself may make the card an auto-include in almost every single deck, which just like with Azure Drake will mean, that the card is badly designed, but in my defense there is a difference between the tech cards and I aimed to make the anti-secret tech card more like that:
- a 3/3 "steal an enemy minion, if..." Mind Control Tech has stats equal to its cost, playing it as a 3/3 is still an OK move, it can be always included in the deck, if the player thinks so
- whereas a 2/4 is a desperate thing imo - we have to have a meta, where secret decks are really popular, in order to be worth to include it; not just 2 ones (3 with pala)
Nerfing should always be the last resort, at least ideally.
But then again, we would need to have broken secrets in the first place to require such measure ... because there are none at the moment.
i don't know, what the "controlling hero" means - for me it's the player, that controlled the tech card
and a 4 mana destroy the value, which the enemy tries to achieve by paying a lot of mana/resources
and tech cards are useless outside the condition - i know
i would like to have a minion, that can do better in many MUs than a one, that handles godlike in some situations (aka vs secret decks)
so this is an example, why the gaining stats effect is not important - you don't use it as a minion, not to mention its stats
Let's wait for a reason to counter secrets first. There's only one secret that is actually strong in the meta at the moment and a few secrets that are played simply because mage has good secret synergy cards. Not to mention that we have eater to deal with them if they ever get out of hand.
Hungry crab is a 1 mana 1/2 that gives an insane bonus when it activates, yet murlocs are still played.
Golakka is a 2 mana 2/3 that also gives a pretty big bonus (2 mana 3/4 is very hard to deal with) when it activates, yet pirates are still played.
Ooze is a 2 mana 3/2 that has no bonus, but has a significant effect for no cost in stats, yet weapons are still played.
A 1 mana 1/2 that destroys all secrets would not stop secrets from being played.
The problem with eater is it's COST, let's say you have lethal with bloodlust, but ice block is in the way, well too bad, even if you teched in eater (and drew it) you can't play both eater and bloodlust most likely. Or if you're playing some maly/combo deck, you probably can't play eater and get your combo off.
The irony right now is the fact that it's mostly mages that play eater, because they can eater and then burn for lethal. It'd be better if an anti-mage tech was good for other classes and sucked for mages, not the other way around.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman
1) then that's stupidly OP:
destroying secrets, dealing damage and only for 1 mana
[i also thought about it, when reading it for the first time, but i was just caught up with interpreting the word "controlling"]
2) but that's why i gave an example with kezan and mc tech - both are tech cards, but even if they don't meet the requirements, then they aren't a huge disaster;
such as the pirate eating River Crocolisk aka Golakka Crawler - this tech doesn't punish the player that much for playing it, it is a bad late game top deck, but in the early game it serves as a minion, capable of doing trades
[i acknowledge the fact, that this tech card can only destroy 1 enemy minion, whereas the Eater of Secrets is capable of destroying more vlaue; that's why its stats are reasonable, but still]
i just want a bit more flexible and not necessarily OP tech, just not extremely clumsy
a plain eater of secrets with a bit better vanilla stats would be better than a 2/4 that gains stats for each secret
ending: i don't want, that we both end up repeating our arguments and falling into a vicious circle, i understand how we have different opinions about this card and i respect that:
you review it as a very good designed card, doing wonders in the right situation and serving its purpose as a balanced tech card;
i - ... [the posts above :D]
I think other classes need secrets, that would be much better.