After reading the latest Q&A, I saw mention of possible nerfs to Barnes.
Great. If it wasn't for fact that Blizzard balance team is notoriously known for either completely butchering the card or simply changing cost/stats. In case of Barnes it would just delay inevitable broken mechanics which certain classes have to offer. More specifically priest.
If you consider Barnes problematic, why print mass resurrect? Why print Catrina when in wild big priest is notoriously known oppressive deck.
So how we solve this problem? Introduce smart Graveyard mechanics which limit possibilities of your summons.
Whenever you summon or play a minion for you hand and deck, this minion gets flagged with a unique "number". It has its own special ID.
Whenever you play a card which revives your minions, the card resurrects from pool of cards unique IDs. IF this minion is already on the board, your attempt for resurrection will fail because MINION IS ALREADY alive.
This always baffled me. How can you revive a minion which is already alive?
For example, you use Diamond Spellstone. You revive Barnes, Yshaarj and Statue. Your Vargoth casts the Spellstone again, however this time it doesn't resurrect anything because all the minion which have died this game are already alive.
With this mechanic and unique flagged minions, the power level of many decks can be cut down and balanced for future.
However, to balance out for the inability to revive certain minions, you would be able to create unique flagged minions by creating copies of those minions. For example, Barnes wouldn't summon the exact minion, instead it would summon a copy of the minion with different ID.
Or let's say you play your Vargoth and then seance it. Your seance would create completely new minion with completely new ID. This way you would be able to generate new minions without breaking the game too much.
"Oh, but that's not so different! What would change?"
With This, you can't get into situations where your opponent uses double resurrect on turn 5, reviving two Rags or Two Yshaarjs.
Or you can't get to situations where let's say... taunt druids summon over and over their army of Lich Kings or mill rogues summoning army of Belchers with 11 shuffled Nzoths from Togwaggle scheme.
I believe this would severely limit the broken graveyard mechanics and balance out the game for expansions to come.
It's just too complicated, Hearthstone is supposed to be casual for most players, and adding this would confuse a lot of newer players. Not to mention that Blizzard would have to give dust refunds on literally every single res card, seeing as this proposed change would make them all significantly worse, and that's not something Blizzard would ever do.
That's close to how magic does it.But in magic there is also your graveyard which you can see all times (very helpful) and exile (perma death kinda?) aswell.
Overall i think it's a great idea from gameplay's perspective but there is no chance to be implemented.This will either make the interface too clunky for the mobile market as the player wil have to see their graveyard in order to know what is dead, or too complex (for hs standards) as you have to remember what has died.So they will use the 'too complex for players' arguement and call it a day.
1) Casual players don't play Big priests because it's literally a tier 1 deck
2) New players won't get confused because they don't own 15000+ dust required to craft a big priest.
3) Having casual players doesn't justify your game experience being ruined by broken mechanics.
4) Blizzard doesn't have to give refunds if they don't want to, considering cards aren't getting directly nerfed. It's just graveyard mechanic getting polished.
5) It's going to make cards significantly worse. However in long term you would benefit from this. Future cards can be created without worrying about Wild meta.
Think about Warsong Commander change. A lot of people were angry with Blizzard for completely changing the card. Yet nowadays you would be glad for the nerf with many powerful 1-3 attack minions being in card pool.
Either way, I really doubt Blizzard balance team is ever going to consider it. Instead, we'll get Barnes for 6 mana and just delay inevitable death.
And saying "Haha, Wild is craaaaazy and wacky isn't justification for the broken deck"
Maybe it's just me, but MAYBE, people don't want to play aggro decks just to beat priests abusing poorly done mechanics?
Thinking about card game mechanics in real life terms of logic is folly. It doesn’t have to make sense that you’ve rezzed the same creature twice in terms of story. It’s like asking why a castle can run across the board in one turn in chess.
I really would like it if the mechanic worked like this. I want to make a rez priest in standard, but the problem right now is consistency. The high rolls are as frequent as the low rolls. And I would add in more tech cards into my deck, if I knew that Mass resurection brought back only 1 copy of the tech card instead of 3 lol
The OP's solution seems remarkably complicated. The real issue seems to be that the graveyard simply isn't a "zone" in HS, so there isn't any way of interacting with it - cards like Gul'dan, Zul'jin, N'Zoth, Tess, Shudderwock, Priest spellstone, and plenty of others, simply do what they do, and we don't have any way of interacting with their effect. MtG has dozens of cards like Tormod's Crypt - reset buttons that empty graveyards of played cards. In HS, we simply have half-measures, or quarter-measures, like transform effects, or "give your opponent some shitty token minions" effects - but once cards are spent, they open up a locus of interaction in-game which only one player can currently exploit.
That's close to how magic does it.But in magic there is also your graveyard which you can see all times (very helpful) and exile (perma death kinda?) aswell.
Overall i think it's a great idea from gameplay's perspective but there is no chance to be implemented.This will either make the interface too clunky for the mobile market as the player wil have to see their graveyard in order to know what is dead, or too complex (for hs standards) as you have to remember what has died.So they will use the 'too complex for players' arguement and call it a day.
Honestly, little more complexity and actual decisions to make while playing Big priest or any resurrect deck would be healthy. Instead of blatantly using a card, cheating 4-6 mana and winning even though you misplayed simply because of deck being too good.
Thinking about card game mechanics in real life terms of logic is folly. It doesn’t have to make sense that you’ve rezzed the same creature twice in terms of story. It’s like asking why a castle can run across the board in one turn in chess.
That being said.... nerf the Barnes!
Developers are often talking about the flavor too. Reviving in HS doesn't make sense because there's no mechanic for it. Heck, it took just several expansions to give classic cards additional mechanics, like with elementals.
Barnes is the problem. Yet he isn't the problem. What, changing his cost to 5 or 6? Just postponing the inevitable death? Even though priest has very likely one of the best removal spells in the game accompanied with healing. This is how usually Blizzard solves their problem. Either nerf it until it's unplayable for people. Even though it's maybe been used in more innocent decks. Or just increase/decrease stats to delay what's coming.
The idea with graveyard is actually best concept I saw in a long time amongst the multiple "Omg nerf it" threads. Apart of actually partially solving the big priest issue, it would add potentially a lot of options to create cards that interacts with both graveyards, similarly to the other games. The graveyard itself is a concept similar to the history for both players, thus it provides a tool to increase the level of this game at least by a small value - you don't need to use it, but you can if you wish to so ...
I think they will eventually implement the mechanic as they continue to produce expansions. There are only so many ways to shake things up before the barrel starts to run dry. Having an expansion with graveyard interactive builds will allow newer players to get the gist of how it works in standard without bombarding them with a huge mass of mechanics.
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Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Nerfing barnes would be the worst way to go about the big priest problem. Nerf the class cards that make the deck broken not barnes, a card which is only broken in priest decks
Create keyword Graveyard = When a minion dies it goes to your Graveyard.
Resurrect, for instance, now says, "Summon a random minion from your Graveyard."
Just as a card that summons a minion from your deck removes the card from your deck, so too does a resurrection-type spell remove a minion from your Graveyard. The only way for it to get back to your Graveyard is for it to die again.
The fine details of how the system works will not be included on any card, just like fine details are currently not on any card.
My big idea is that a 1/1 summoned copy is a 1/1. This would also mechanically change that silencing the 1/1 would not revert the stats.
This sort of change would be a card by card decision on the wording. Example would be Vivid Nightmare would still summon a copy of the card that can be healed so rezzing a dead creature created this way should yield the original creature.
Blizzard will never do this because too much effort. They even hesistated to add new beasts for Deathstalker Rexxar's hero power when, I believe, KnC came out.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Petition for Jaina's boobs to return please. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Hello,
After reading the latest Q&A, I saw mention of possible nerfs to Barnes.
Great. If it wasn't for fact that Blizzard balance team is notoriously known for either completely butchering the card or simply changing cost/stats. In case of Barnes it would just delay inevitable broken mechanics which certain classes have to offer. More specifically priest.
If you consider Barnes problematic, why print mass resurrect? Why print Catrina when in wild big priest is notoriously known oppressive deck.
So how we solve this problem? Introduce smart Graveyard mechanics which limit possibilities of your summons.
Whenever you summon or play a minion for you hand and deck, this minion gets flagged with a unique "number". It has its own special ID.
Whenever you play a card which revives your minions, the card resurrects from pool of cards unique IDs. IF this minion is already on the board, your attempt for resurrection will fail because MINION IS ALREADY alive.
This always baffled me. How can you revive a minion which is already alive?
For example, you use Diamond Spellstone. You revive Barnes, Yshaarj and Statue. Your Vargoth casts the Spellstone again, however this time it doesn't resurrect anything because all the minion which have died this game are already alive.
With this mechanic and unique flagged minions, the power level of many decks can be cut down and balanced for future.
However, to balance out for the inability to revive certain minions, you would be able to create unique flagged minions by creating copies of those minions. For example, Barnes wouldn't summon the exact minion, instead it would summon a copy of the minion with different ID.
Or let's say you play your Vargoth and then seance it. Your seance would create completely new minion with completely new ID. This way you would be able to generate new minions without breaking the game too much.
"Oh, but that's not so different! What would change?"
With This, you can't get into situations where your opponent uses double resurrect on turn 5, reviving two Rags or Two Yshaarjs.
Or you can't get to situations where let's say... taunt druids summon over and over their army of Lich Kings or mill rogues summoning army of Belchers with 11 shuffled Nzoths from Togwaggle scheme.
I believe this would severely limit the broken graveyard mechanics and balance out the game for expansions to come.
It's just too complicated, Hearthstone is supposed to be casual for most players, and adding this would confuse a lot of newer players. Not to mention that Blizzard would have to give dust refunds on literally every single res card, seeing as this proposed change would make them all significantly worse, and that's not something Blizzard would ever do.
I'm up for that - makes more sense than ressurect ing something multiple times even though it only died once
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK6oSRHfjOX1-LwIuCrzjMA?view_as=subscriber
This seems like an extremely farfetched solution for a simple problem: a 4-mana card cheating out huge minions.
Dad, husband, gamer, fueled by coffee.
Currently playing Dragon Galakrond Priest, Dragon Galakrond Warrior and Highlander Dragon Hunter.
That's close to how magic does it.But in magic there is also your graveyard which you can see all times (very helpful) and exile (perma death kinda?) aswell.
Overall i think it's a great idea from gameplay's perspective but there is no chance to be implemented.This will either make the interface too clunky for the mobile market as the player wil have to see their graveyard in order to know what is dead, or too complex (for hs standards) as you have to remember what has died.So they will use the 'too complex for players' arguement and call it a day.
1) Casual players don't play Big priests because it's literally a tier 1 deck
2) New players won't get confused because they don't own 15000+ dust required to craft a big priest.
3) Having casual players doesn't justify your game experience being ruined by broken mechanics.
4) Blizzard doesn't have to give refunds if they don't want to, considering cards aren't getting directly nerfed. It's just graveyard mechanic getting polished.
5) It's going to make cards significantly worse. However in long term you would benefit from this. Future cards can be created without worrying about Wild meta.
Think about Warsong Commander change. A lot of people were angry with Blizzard for completely changing the card. Yet nowadays you would be glad for the nerf with many powerful 1-3 attack minions being in card pool.
Either way, I really doubt Blizzard balance team is ever going to consider it. Instead, we'll get Barnes for 6 mana and just delay inevitable death.
And saying "Haha, Wild is craaaaazy and wacky isn't justification for the broken deck"
Maybe it's just me, but MAYBE, people don't want to play aggro decks just to beat priests abusing poorly done mechanics?
Thinking about card game mechanics in real life terms of logic is folly. It doesn’t have to make sense that you’ve rezzed the same creature twice in terms of story. It’s like asking why a castle can run across the board in one turn in chess.
That being said.... nerf the Barnes!
I really would like it if the mechanic worked like this. I want to make a rez priest in standard, but the problem right now is consistency. The high rolls are as frequent as the low rolls. And I would add in more tech cards into my deck, if I knew that Mass resurection brought back only 1 copy of the tech card instead of 3 lol
The OP's solution seems remarkably complicated. The real issue seems to be that the graveyard simply isn't a "zone" in HS, so there isn't any way of interacting with it - cards like Gul'dan, Zul'jin, N'Zoth, Tess, Shudderwock, Priest spellstone, and plenty of others, simply do what they do, and we don't have any way of interacting with their effect. MtG has dozens of cards like Tormod's Crypt - reset buttons that empty graveyards of played cards. In HS, we simply have half-measures, or quarter-measures, like transform effects, or "give your opponent some shitty token minions" effects - but once cards are spent, they open up a locus of interaction in-game which only one player can currently exploit.
Honestly, little more complexity and actual decisions to make while playing Big priest or any resurrect deck would be healthy. Instead of blatantly using a card, cheating 4-6 mana and winning even though you misplayed simply because of deck being too good.
Developers are often talking about the flavor too. Reviving in HS doesn't make sense because there's no mechanic for it. Heck, it took just several expansions to give classic cards additional mechanics, like with elementals.
Barnes is the problem. Yet he isn't the problem. What, changing his cost to 5 or 6? Just postponing the inevitable death? Even though priest has very likely one of the best removal spells in the game accompanied with healing. This is how usually Blizzard solves their problem. Either nerf it until it's unplayable for people. Even though it's maybe been used in more innocent decks. Or just increase/decrease stats to delay what's coming.
I think the answer is pretty simple. Make barnes summon a “1/1 actor with the same text as a minion in your deck”
The idea with graveyard is actually best concept I saw in a long time amongst the multiple "Omg nerf it" threads. Apart of actually partially solving the big priest issue, it would add potentially a lot of options to create cards that interacts with both graveyards, similarly to the other games. The graveyard itself is a concept similar to the history for both players, thus it provides a tool to increase the level of this game at least by a small value - you don't need to use it, but you can if you wish to so ...
I think they will eventually implement the mechanic as they continue to produce expansions. There are only so many ways to shake things up before the barrel starts to run dry. Having an expansion with graveyard interactive builds will allow newer players to get the gist of how it works in standard without bombarding them with a huge mass of mechanics.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
Nerfing barnes would be the worst way to go about the big priest problem. Nerf the class cards that make the deck broken not barnes, a card which is only broken in priest decks
Nerf the ressurection tools not barnes. Make ressurection and eternal servatude cost 2 mana more each and see if big priest is still viable.
OPs change could happen without confusing anyone.
Create keyword Graveyard = When a minion dies it goes to your Graveyard.
Resurrect, for instance, now says, "Summon a random minion from your Graveyard."
Just as a card that summons a minion from your deck removes the card from your deck, so too does a resurrection-type spell remove a minion from your Graveyard. The only way for it to get back to your Graveyard is for it to die again.
The fine details of how the system works will not be included on any card, just like fine details are currently not on any card.
Voilà! Problem solved!
As stupid as Barnes can be, the resurrect mechanic is what makes the deck unfun to play against, as it punishes the opponent for playing the game.
Change all resurrect effects to be able to summon enemy minions that died this game, and you have your fix.
My big idea is that a 1/1 summoned copy is a 1/1. This would also mechanically change that silencing the 1/1 would not revert the stats.
This sort of change would be a card by card decision on the wording. Example would be Vivid Nightmare would still summon a copy of the card that can be healed so rezzing a dead creature created this way should yield the original creature.
Blizzard will never do this because too much effort. They even hesistated to add new beasts for Deathstalker Rexxar's hero power when, I believe, KnC came out.
Petition for Jaina's boobs to return please. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Why do you bother big priest? It has less win rate than any agro.