Rise of Shadows Card Nerfs - What Do Pros Want To See Smacked?
IGN's Cam Shea got a chance to speak with a few of Hearthstone's pros at this past weekend's HCT World Championship and talked about card nerfs. Below you'll find our recap and you can read their thoughts it full here.
Card nerfs have been a very popular community topic post expansion launch, as they always are, though could it be different this time around? Here's what pros had to say about the Rise of Shadows set and any cards they think should get hit with the nerf bat.
- Ike thinks the meta hasn't fully progressed yet due to "sixteen of the best players ... [not] sharing anything"
- Justsaiyan says Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is a problem. Everyone is playing Warrior which means long games, he feels like not even playing mirrors. Boom is strong due to the DK rotation.
- Bunnyhoppor thinks Rogue is too strong. He also has this to say:
- Rogue opposition needs to have an answer for Waggle Pick or Raiding Party.
- Edwin VanCleef should be removed. He proposes moving Edwin to the Hall of Fame and making Preparation's effect a 2-cost reduction.
- Magic Carpet is not an issue right now but could be if Rogue gets nerfed.
- Possibly need to do something about Dr. Boom, Mad Genius because it might be healthy for player sentiment.
- Wants to see changes before Hearthstone Grandmasters begins as he doesn't want to see everyone only playing Rogue and Warrior.
- Hunterace thinks the biggest problem is EVIL Miscreant due to the Rogue pool being very strong. Bump the cost up to 4.
Proposed Nerf Targets
Some of these are conditionally, though they certainly echo community thoughts.
Your Thoughts
Are there any cards you think need to be hit with a nerf after these past few weeks of playing Rise of Shadows? Let us know down below.
Personally, I'm quite amazed Magic Carpet was even printed and will continue to quite enjoy the shenanigans in Zoolock while I still can. Increasing the cost seems like the most viable way to deal with it to keep the effect intact.
I also think that Augmented Elekk gives Warrior way too much power. Increasing its cost so it can remain a viable option for getting onto the field later in the game seems acceptable.
If you nerf Warrior that means more and more dumbfuck cancer aggro decks.
Nerf druid and rogue.
I agree with Ace. If I had to choose a chard, Evil Miscreant for rogue is the most overpowered. The variety of lackeys provides much versatility and allows combo activation to occur with ease. I believe combo effects are too strong to be activated so easily. Rogue has the tools to cut through just anything in the early turns of the match.
But Lackeys dont win him the game.
Edwin does. Leeroy Shadowstep does. Wagglepick Leeroy does.
While I agree that Prep is a bit broken, since all rogue spells are over-costed in consequence, nerfing it would really nerf a tons of cards at the same time so it ain't that simple,
Exactly! Look how many high-mana Druid cards are totally unplayable now due to the Innervate, Wild Growth, and Nourish nerfs!
Lol if they nerf boom just because of the dk rotation. I mean c'mon he is technically weaker than the majority of dks (Gul'dan, Rexxar, Anduin, Malfurion, Jaina), which all went unnerfed.
Nerfing Boom will cause huge problems for Wild btw. It is really funny that Warrior dominates the standard, because it is generally considered one of the weaker classes in Wild as it has a great amount of trash cards and themes that never kicked off.
The bigger problem is imho the rotation of Baku/Genn and the other HoF cards. It was a good decision, but they haven't released compensation cards yet, and this is bad. Warrior draws from the Boomsday pack, so it was kinda unaffected by the nerf to the Witchwood expansion.
When they release compensation cards, they should take the opportunity and release compensations for the Witchwood pack as well. That would allow them to create two new neutral legendaries and a couple more class cards to specifically target the stale meta. New legendaries could specifically target archetypes that only miss a win condition to see play, of which there are plenty.
It's still an option to rotate Dr. Boom, Mad Genius to wild. Lack of other Hero Cards to balance the value he provides to Warrior is a serious problem.
Preparation should be nerfed to cost 1. Haunting Visions is a 1-mana discover card with the same effect that essentially costs 2.
I'm not sold on any other nerfs at the moment. Start with Prep and see what happens.
Edwin nerf? This card is iconic. It does what legendary card suppose - be good.
I think the main problem is that it can win the game so early on. An 8/8 Edwin on turn 2 (while also drawing cards, and clearing minions) has always been a problem, it's just magnified right now due to the fact the rogue is so strong. Combine that with the fact that early game is super weak for most decks and cheap removal is gone with the rotation, it poses a problem.
HOWEVER, I don't think this is the THE card I would target. If rogue can be brought to balance, I think Edwin loses his power. Nerfing cards around him, like prep, backstab, shadow step, etc., can help curb his power level. I think the thing that makes him so powerful is all the things you can do in conjunction with him coming down.
Actually it's pretty tame in Wild lol. It's only big stats lol. How standard could ever be in a position that a minion that is only stats causes problems is beyond my mind. Doesn't every class have hard removal? In wild we just click removal spell and boom Edwin is gone forever no problem and he never attacked us.
Sorry that I ask, but I am a Wild only player. Edwin really is a Problem in Standard? WTF! He would look ridicoulous next to Sylvanas Windrunner, Ragnaros the Firelord and Baku/Genn in the HoF.
I agree. Edwin isn't the problem. Look what happened when Druid started to dominate due to cards like Ultimate Infestation. They decided "gee our new cards are perfectly balanced, it's these old cards that are the problem." Now that Innervate, Wild Growth, and Nourish are nerfed, Druid can't ramp effectively, so aggro is the only viable option for them. I think they should look at nerfing newer cards before the classics that the class is based on.
Agreed. They nerfed all the iconic druid cards like keeper of the grove, ancient of lore, wild growth, innervate... These cards are not a problem by itself but only when it enables the real problem cards.
I agree that nerfing Rogue in general (see: Prep, Raiding Party, Waggle Pick, Miscreant) would push Edwin out of the meta. However, that approach might eliminate Rogue from the meta altogether, while simply rotating Edwin to wild (and I say this as an experienced tempo/miracle Rogue player) wouldn't be likely to fundamentally change the Rogue class.
In the same boat as you, except when you think about it turn two 8/8 draw three is pretty insane, followed up by a 4/2 weapon and two 3/3 taunt
Edit: Not saying it should be nerfed
You know Silence Priests can drop an 8/8 on turn two as well with the coin? And they don’t even need a legendary to do it. Edwin is fine.
Hey guys,
Mad Genius needs nerf, even if all DKs were back in the game. The discover mechanism should be replaced with adding a random mech and the rush mechanism should be removed (e.g. a devastator alone can "devastate" a giant and another 4health minion only for 4 mana!!!).
And tbh, mad genius, hagatha and zul Jin should be banned until the next expansion in which all remaining classes should receive a DK too (it is called balance).
Another problem is that there are fewer mass removals and aggro and tempo classes thrive.
And finally, I believe that Leeroy and Shadowstep should move to hall of fame
First of all, I'm surprised to not see Conjurer's Calling upon that list.
Unlike most, I'm pretty satisfied with the current meta. Rogue is way too prevalent, but with the right tech choices (DOUBLE OOZE), many classes CAN beat them (avg >50% WR). If rogue and warrior get nerfed, we have to look at the other top tier decks including mech hunter, token druid, Murloc Shaman and Conjurers mage.
Per class I'll discuss what cards I'd consider for nerfs:
Rogue: I would not like to see Edwin nerfed/removed. He's an iconic card in Rogue and offers a unique win condition for the class. If a nerf happens, I'd prefer something like making him a 3/3 for 4. I'd like to keep the 'huge stats fantasy' but at 3 mana, it's sometimes problematic when you face a 10/10 turn 2.
That said, I'd rather see Prep nerfed. The card is omnipresent in rogue and who can blame them. A 3 mana cheat is huge, especially since druid's 2 mana cheat was nerfed, I think this is due to get nerfed. Prep is restricted by requiring a spell to combo with it rather than a minion, making it fairer than an innervate effect and rogue has historically very few good 3+ mana spells. In comes Raiding party, a 3 mana draw 3, which flips this statement upside down. The combo is essentially a 0 mana turn 2 cards into 3. WOW. It is restricted by requiring to play pirates and weapons, but right now that seems to work out a bit too well. Prep in classic means that rogue can never get good 3+ cost spells. Perhaps making prep cost 1 mana and give a 4 cost reduction would be better, which is a nerf to prep + a 3- cost card but remains the same for perp + sprint or + vanish which are reasonable combo's.
Warrior: Boom hero card: I'm not sure how this should be effectively nerfed. Make it cost 9? I personally don't believe this card is THE problem.
Dyn-o-matic however... Boy this card is insane. It is the reason why warrior is so good against tempo decks EXCEPT mech decks. Make it deal 4 damage split. Looks like a small nerf, but that 1 extra damage can swing many games.
Elysiana: I don't think she's too strong per se, but a 50 card deck mirror match is a bit long imo. At 9 or 10 mana she can't reliably be bounced into hand or deck. Only shaman will still be able to reliably get 2 triggers, but from my experience, I always won against control warrior as Shaman anyways unless they could Hecklebot my Elysiana.
Token druid: SAVAGE ROAR. This card is just savage and surprisingly keeps surviving the nerf rotations. At 4 cost would be more reasonable. The effect is comparable with bloodlust, but it also gives +2 to the hero. This card makes tokens so much more frightening with double roar at 6 mana.
Conjurer's mage: I chose this name because tbh this card is the carry, more than Kadgar. Even though Kadgar is definitely OP, it's a one of card while this is... a 4 of? The card would be good without the twinspell effect. The card right now is just insane. At 4 mana, it'll still be a good card.
Mech Hunter: I'm not seeing one card that is OP on it's own. I'd give it the benefit of the doubt and say that they are just thriving because everyone techs against rogue and not them. Silences and heals would be very effective against them.
Murloc Shaman: Underbelly Angler is obviously the carry here. Not sure if he should be nerfed yet. Again, I think it's feasting on the control decks teching against rogue instead of AOE.
tl;dr:
Prep: cost reduction (3) -> (2)
OR Cost 0 -> 1 mana with cost reduction (3) -> (4)
Dyn-o-matic: Deals 5 -> 4 damage randomly split
Elysiana: Cost 8 -> 9 mana
Savage Roar: Cost 3 -> 4 mana
Conjurer's calling: Cost 3 -> 4 mana
Disclaimer: I played the majority of the games with Dragon control shaman (it's just control shaman with the neutral dragon package) with which I climbed from rank 5 to legendary. I believe with these nerfs that my deck will become even better, so I'm not completely unbiased. I haven't faced anyone else on the ladder with the same decktype, though. So I think this deck is far from tier 1.
Hmm.....push "RESET" button and go back to vanilla HS :V
nerf whatever you want but keep your fucking hands away from prep.