Ben Brode Explains the Reasoning for the Naga Sea Witch Rule Change
Ben Brode was on reddit today responding to an inquiry on Naga Sea Witch and her recent undocumented change.
- It was a mistake that the change wasn't in the patch notes for 9.0.
- If Naga Sea Witch is too powerful, she will probably be nerfed.
- The initial conversation began with the interaction between Bright-Eyed Scout and Second-Rate Bruiser.
- Due to not thinking that combo was correct, they reevaluated how cost-setting and cost-adjusting auras worked.
- Changing it made the rules overall easier to understand.
- They were initially concerned with the power level of the card, but it isn't a high win-rate right now.
Check out the full text below. There's a lot of great insight into the change that is better read in full.
Quote from Ben BrodeIf you're talking about Naga Sea Witch, it was definitely intentional, and definitely a mistake that it missed the patch notes.
The thing that got us talking about the issue was the interaction between Bright-Eyed Scout and Second-Rate Bruiser.
Generally when things "set" a value (think Aldor Peacekeeper), it becomes the new baseline. Any "auras" that affect that value apply after the effect that is applying the new baseline. Think about a minion next to a Dire Wolf Alpha. If you Aldor Peacekeeper that minion, his new Attack will be 2, not 1. It's because the Aura applies after the "set" power. This hasn't always worked correctly in the past, but if you Aldor a Small-Time Buccaneer who is being buffed by his power - his power is an Aura, and so the resulting minion would have 3 Attack.
We think the Bright-Eyed Scout + Second-Rate Bruiser interaction wasn't correct, and it caused us to re-evaluate Cost-Setting and how it interacted with Cost-Adjusting Auras.
Here's the discussion the engineers and designers had regarding Sea Witch:
The Naga Sea Witch interaction can work out in one of two ways:
If you draw a Second-Rate Bruiser while Naga Sea Witch is already in play, Second-Rate Bruiser’s cost will be reduced by 2 if your opponent has 3 or more minions.
If you have a Second-Rate Bruiser already in hand and play a Naga Sea Witch, that Bruiser will always cost 5, no matter how many minions your opponent has. If it gets a Thaurissan tick, it goes down to 4. If the Naga Sea Witch leaves play, Second-Rate Bruiser’s cost will be reduced by 2 if your opponent has 3 or more minions, while keeping the Thaurissan tick making it cost 1 less – leaving it with a cost of either 4 or 2.
This distinction happens because in the first case, Naga Sea Witch’s timestamp will be earlier than SRB’s, so SRB applies last. In the second case, SRB’s modifier has an earlier timestamp, so Naga Sea Witch applies last.
Why this feels wrong: We have a very clear precedent that card text modifiers apply last, after any external stat-setting effect occurs.
Tar Creeper, Tar Lurker, Tar Lord, Lightspawn, Cogmaster, Old Murk-Eye, Goblin Sapper - All of these cards give themselves a modifier that alters one of their own stats. If you play a stat-setting effect on one of them, their text still applies. The Tar minions will always get their attack bonus, even after being affected by Crystal Core, Aldor Peacekeeper, Sunkeeper Tarim, Dinosize or any other effect.
The proposal is this: Cards that modify their own cost should work in this exact same way. Second-Rate Bruiser’s ability is in the same category as Tar Creeper’s ability – it modifies one of its stats when a condition is met. This would standardize their behavior, making them on the whole feel more intuitive and consistent, as well as making our lives easier by making the rules more predictable.
If Naga Sea Witch is in play: Cards in hand cost 5, then their text is applied.
If Aviana is in play: Cards in hand cost 1, then their text is applied.
If Aviana, Naga Sea Witch, Pint-Sized Summoner, Summoning Portal and Mana Wraith are in play: Cards in play apply their effects in the order that they came into play, then each card in hand applies its own text last.
If I draw a Molten Giant with Bright-Eyed Scout: Molten Giant’s cost is 5, minus the damage I’ve taken. If I’m at 25 health, it costs 0.
If I draw a Molten Giant with Bright-Eyed Scout while Aviana is in play: Aviana applies, making Molten Giant cost 1. Bright-Eyed Scout’s enchantment then applies, making Molten Giant cost 5. Finally, Molten Giant’s text applies, making it cost 5 minus HealthLost.
We made the change because we think these rules are easier to understand because they're more consistent with other parts of the game, not because we wanted to buff Naga Sea Witch. We were worried about it's power level and have been watching the play/win reports in Wild. Right now it's not one of the best decks, but it could grow in winrate as players get more practice. If it does become a big problem, we'd probably nerf Naga Sea Witch, rather than reverting the rules change.
This is an excellent explanation that should settle the "intentional or not" issue completely. It also makes a lot of sense, so thank you for sharing and clarifying!
It looks like Dragon's Breath doesn't follow these new rules though. Here's a video documenting that with Naga Sea Witch in play, Dragon's Breath in hand does not reduce its cost by one every time a minion dies, even though Volcanic Drake does: https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/6yj2o9/new_bug_with_naga_sea_witch_and_dragons_breath/
Is this something that should happen, or a case that was missed in the last update?
It's a bug. Should be fixed in an upcoming patch (though the fix will miss 9.1.) (Source)
They'll nerf it after the upcoming tournaments. People should be focused on standard atm, not wild. This is how i read the explanation.
Tl;dr, Basically Ben Brode said there is no problem with Naga Sea Witch atm.
And he is right. :)
While this does make sense, the giants will now always be a potential issue with any kind of cost setting mechanic.
So this might be a really stupid question... But does Bright Eyed Scout now work with Second-Rate Bruiser? (Scout draws the card, sets it to five, then bruiser discounts if more than three minions are controlled by the opponent?)
Yes. Exactly how he said. First - set Bruiser cost to 5, then - apply his own effect and discount to 3.
It's OK guys cut Team 5 some slack, they're just a small indie company after all. It's not like they're part of a multi-million dollar organisation or anything.
Giant decks are just a more complicated version of Quest Rogue.
Difference being that Giants are bigger, but they have no charge.
Meaning that, unlike QR, Giants can still be kept in check by many Control options, other than Aggro decks in general.
It seems OP in some single matchups, but it isn't overall.
I can't see why Giants should be any more annoying than Jades.
Because turn 5 insta win, when QR it was 68% win?
You know such things like Equality + Pyro? Where is your insta win now?
In the decks that don't run them, obviously?
You mean like Freeze Mage, Control Paladin and Control Warrior for example?
Wild is full of decks that can and will end you by turn 4, and on a consistent basis. I have my doubts as to if Naga Sea Witch will get a nerf because those decks are a turn slow. If you coin her out on turn 4, you're not guaranteed to have enough damage out to end the game on turn 5.
Both pirate warrior and token druid will end the game before the giants come out. If you draw your tech cards then it's a coin toss if you can still pull it off. Mages can still Frost Nova + Doomsayer the board, priests can Lightbomb all the giants and autowin the game most of the time (exception of course if you can get the giants out on turn 5). Paladins of course still have their equality clear. Warlocks also have a treachery + Doomsayer clear as well. Warriors can clear with brawl. Druid I suppose has poison seeds. Shamans, Rogues, and Hunters are the only ones really that can't stop it.
Though this is under the assumption that giants will somehow overrun the wild format, which again is kinda unlikely since aggro decks tend to walk over anyone trying to flood the board with giants.
Another barrier to entry for this deck becoming all that common place is the crafting requirements for the deck itself. The core of the deck is 10-12 epics, with only the 2 mountain giants being useful outside the deck. For some people it's like crafting 4 legendaries that are utterly useless outside the deck.
Though I think the biggest reason why Naga Sea Witch won't see a nerf is because it's not an OTK. You build the board up, and the other player has one turn to find an answer.
The biggest reason why it will get a nerf on the other hand is because the deck roughly plays out like the old Miracle Rogue: Did they survive to turn 5? Do they have the key cards in hand? (Auctioneer + conceal/Sea Witch + 2 or more giants). Can you answer the stealthed auctioneer / board full of giants? Which means in this case Sea Witch might get nerfed to 6 mana.
Time will tell I suppose. Personally I put the giants package into a Paladin deck and threw in Holy Wrath for the lolz. I cheated out so many games by aiming for the face and watching 25 health disappear, and because a quarter of the deck are giants, a good chunk of the times it's a 5 mana pyroblast. Though as mentioned aggro decks and priests tear the giants apart, at the same time I don't think any of the list are super refined so who knows; maybe they will become super unstoppable.
You missed the fact that both pirates and tokens get merged next patch right ?
You only need one very specific card (or more specific cards) in your hand to not to be stomped down. Nice!
I understand the points but I disagree with them.
A. Board interactions and hand interactions are not the same thing, so get the Aldor Peacekeeper reasoning out of here.
B. You cards cost 5 is easy to understand. Cards should cost 5. Changing for the sake of making it somehow easier to understand is the dumbest excuse I have ever heard.
C. Bright eyed scout is a battlecry, Naga is an aura. There is no reason the BES should have any effect on how naga works.
Correction: they explain they have decided that Naga sets the base cost of the cards to (5), even though the card reads your cards cost (5), i.e., set the cost of the cards to (5). Another wording inconsistency in this game. Good job small indie company.
The Aldor explanation in particular makes it sound like the way they changed the interaction is wrong.
That is, using an Aldor on a creature sitting next to a Dire Wolf shows you that auras apply LAST. But Naga Sea Witch's aura does not apply last, it appears to apply first!
Brode undermined his own explanation.