Hearthpwn

Clife, don't forget emperor, which will kill most maly decks except maybe druid due to crazy ramping. 

Quote from Tze >>

@Nopoints6704; I agree with Druid removal needing to remain untouched but I think there's merit for Auctioneer/Azure to be removed and it really doesn't have anything to do with hating Rogue. Granted, with rotation we lose Pillager (Patches/Swashburglar are both in Standard until 2018) so maybe Auctioneer ends up fading back into the background... but currently it's arguably one of the most defining cards in Rogue decks while being a neutral card; I don't believe that's healthy to have be the case for as long as it has. Azure isn't defining necessarily but it's certainly a card that is really just too good not to include. Bloodmage Thalnos is arguably right there along with Azure.

Sans Auctioneer/Azure you'd still have Backstab/Prep/Evis/Sap/SI:7 in Basic/Classic to build with, which is actually a very solid kit to have be evergreen. From there if they want to build in a draw engine for Rogue to exploit it would be something that rotates out in two years, which means you avoid the current dissatisfaction people have with Rogue in that, other than a period where Oil was king, Miracle has pretty much been the competitive list/playstyle to run. 

I'm genuinely of the opinion that classes should feel a shakeup with the rotation, and it's panned out for everyone but Rogue it seems. I'd like to see the class go in a different direction for a bit, and I truly believe as long as Auctioneer is in Standard we're most likely not going to see that happen.

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Year sure rotate just the cards that are making a deck viable out of standard and all win... right? But relay? Swipe? The only Boardclear and Warth the only good early removal of Druid? Are you guys think bevor posting or just name the cards that are a staple in a deck because WE HAVEN'T A REPLACEMENT FOR THAT! We can throw cards in wild sure but not the basic set! Its the BASIC set. It should be the core in every deck. Some of the cards like the Auctionmaster or the Azuredrake ok but not basic or stable class cards. Blizz can only do that if we get a good new tool and if that's not happening (like a good 5 drop like Slugebecher) they cant do that.

 Druid's classic set is just too strong. I don't think they will touch Innervate and Wild Growth since mana manipulation is Druid specialty... that means some other stuff needs to go, and probably hitting the removals makes sense. They will be replaced in standard with new cards, like they did after the combo nerf.

 druid already has Almost zero removal. Getting rid of swipe and wrath will just make it necessary to print some new gimmicky single target damage and aoe for druid every 2 years.  Total nonsense and waste of design space. 

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I'm super glad Aionpaladin doesn't get to balance this game.

 Definitely.

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@Wishmaster333; I highly doubt we'd see Prep rotated out since it's just such a defining card for Rogue (similar to Innervate or Wild Growth for Druid), and I honestly doubt class Legendaries are getting touched any time soon. I mean it's certainly possible if they feel like it's contributing to the staleness of Rogue, but I feel like they're probably not worried about classes having a few evergreen signature cards; Auctioneer and Leeroy on the other hand could probably see rotation simply because they're enabling archetypes on their own across multiple classes and that doesn't feel healthy for an evergreen set.

If the argument for Rag is "He's good in this meta if you want to run an 8-Drop", for Auctioneer is "He's good if your deck has a combo to dig for and you run cheap spells", and for Leeroy is "You need a burst finisher but your class doesn't have any" I think there's an argument to be made those cards are keeping Standard from feeling as fresh as it should.

 I don't agree, I think Preparation is a card that severly limits design space for rogue since allows to cast for free any spell that costs 3 or less mana. This type of mana acceleration usually leads to very broken combos, especially in Hearthstone since spells can do basically everything, even summoning creatures or buffing weapons. I suspect they nerfed Blade Flurry mana cost also to not be able to be casted for free with Prep. AND it's also a spell, that means has synergy with everything spell-related, like Auctioneer. The card is definitely busted.

In general this type of card seems more adapt to a eternal format, where mana manipulation is common and crazy combos available to every class, but not really fit in the protected enviroment that is standard. Also, Rogue's classic set is definitely the strongest and the most predominant of all classes, so probably Blizz would want to hit a few cards, other than Auctioneer and maybe Drake. Preparation seems the best candidate.

I think you've missed innervate, which is stronger than prep by heaps and bounds: rogue has maybe 2 spells which are viable to run, with a cost of 3 mana. This means 9/10 preps are wasted potential mana, unless on a fan or beneath the ground. It occurs to me that most of the miracle complaints are from people who don't understand how delicate the deck is. Auctioneer was nerfed and only became viable due to tomb pillager, which is rotating out already. You remove EVC and or prep and there's nothing lethal in rogue to build around unless you think spending mana to steal another class's spells to throw back at them while hoping rng gives you something you can make use of is a viable mechanic. Maybe all of the sending minions back is viable with omg amounts of 2 damage si:7 spam and perpetual summoning sickness. 

 I think you're missing a lot of points. First of all, of course Innervate is good, indeed is the best card in the game. That doesn't change anything about Preparation. The fact that Druid has access to mana acceleration is part of the class identity; the crazy discount of Prep is another issue.

Second. Rogue doesn't have good options for 3 mana spells exactly because Prep is part of his classic set and limits design space. So, if you want to give a new spell to rogue, and you don't want that spell to be casted for free, the mana cost needs to be 4+, making that spell busted or unplayable. And that's the reason rogue gets the new magma rager in expansions.

Third. What will play Rogue without Auctioneer and Prep? Finally a new archetype using the new cards from the new expansion.

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@Wishmaster333; I highly doubt we'd see Prep rotated out since it's just such a defining card for Rogue (similar to Innervate or Wild Growth for Druid), and I honestly doubt class Legendaries are getting touched any time soon. I mean it's certainly possible if they feel like it's contributing to the staleness of Rogue, but I feel like they're probably not worried about classes having a few evergreen signature cards; Auctioneer and Leeroy on the other hand could probably see rotation simply because they're enabling archetypes on their own across multiple classes and that doesn't feel healthy for an evergreen set.

If the argument for Rag is "He's good in this meta if you want to run an 8-Drop", for Auctioneer is "He's good if your deck has a combo to dig for and you run cheap spells", and for Leeroy is "You need a burst finisher but your class doesn't have any" I think there's an argument to be made those cards are keeping Standard from feeling as fresh as it should.

 I don't agree, I think Preparation is a card that severly limits design space for rogue since allows to cast for free any spell that costs 3 or less mana. This type of mana acceleration usually leads to very broken combos, especially in Hearthstone since spells can do basically everything, even summoning creatures or buffing weapons. I suspect they nerfed Blade Flurry mana cost also to not be able to be casted for free with Prep. AND it's also a spell, that means has synergy with everything spell-related, like Auctioneer. The card is definitely busted.

In general this type of card seems more adapt to a eternal format, where mana manipulation is common and crazy combos available to every class, but not really fit in the protected enviroment that is standard. Also, Rogue's classic set is definitely the strongest and the most predominant of all classes, so probably Blizz would want to hit a few cards, other than Auctioneer and maybe Drake. Preparation seems the best candidate.

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I honestly don't understand the logic of rotating out cards because they are good enough to see play. *See basically every card that people are reccomending we rotate out*

What is even the point of keeping evergreen if we don't want to any of the cards to see play? And let's say we do rotate out all the most popular cards right. In a year, let's pretend everyone plays Gruul now instead of ragnaros for whatever reason. Do we remove gruul then too? We don't want want any classi.cards seeing play after all. So I guess the consensus in this community is yes. Nevermind the fact that Blizzard has failed us creatively enough for us to continue playing Gruul. We just remove cards so Blizzard can sell us new ones.

People complain about Edwin, but look at the other rogue legendaries. Even without Edwin, people don't want to run Xaril or shaku. Take away auctioneer, you take away rogue. I notice that these lists aren't targeting the most powerful decks on ladder. These lists are targeting Rogue disproportionately, and blizzard has failed rogue. I mean, you can't print cards like shadow rager and wonder why we aren't playing it. Print good cards instead of forcing your new cards on us. 

That would require balancing though and Blizzard, you straight up can not balance this game. Removing cards, creates space for other classic cards to be dominate, and we will be back at square one until I only the most unplayable cards of classic remain. Which begs the question, why make classic evergreen if it isn't actually evergreen?

 

 Rotating cards out makes room for new archetypes.  Who cares if new and actually good Rogue cards are released if Miracle Rogue is strictly better?  Who cares about Menagerie Warden (an actually good card) when Maly Druid is strictly better?  Why would you run an 8-drop that wasn't Ragnaros?  

An aside, Shaku is seeing play in some Miracle Rogue lists. 

 Who plays shaku? And why would you? The whole burgle + undercity and every rogue "card steal" is quaint but hardly an archetype. It's lazy design that says "your new archetype is to play someone else's" because spending mana on gimmicks to obtain their cards somehow affords you to play those cards more mana efficiently? The raw meat on huckster for his cost is hardly efficient value, same with Shaku. Even if you say get the perfect removal when you need it from the mechanic, it's rng and you're still additively spending the mana on shaku / burgle / huckster and then the mana on the spell itself. 

 Lifecoach, in Miracle Rogue.  And because it's a soft taunt and guarantees you get a card, and gives you a turn 3 option besides SI:7. 

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I honestly don't understand the logic of rotating out cards because they are good enough to see play. *See basically every card that people are reccomending we rotate out*

What is even the point of keeping evergreen if we don't want to any of the cards to see play? And let's say we do rotate out all the most popular cards right. In a year, let's pretend everyone plays Gruul now instead of ragnaros for whatever reason. Do we remove gruul then too? We don't want want any classi.cards seeing play after all. So I guess the consensus in this community is yes. Nevermind the fact that Blizzard has failed us creatively enough for us to continue playing Gruul. We just remove cards so Blizzard can sell us new ones.

People complain about Edwin, but look at the other rogue legendaries. Even without Edwin, people don't want to run Xaril or shaku. Take away auctioneer, you take away rogue. I notice that these lists aren't targeting the most powerful decks on ladder. These lists are targeting Rogue disproportionately, and blizzard has failed rogue. I mean, you can't print cards like shadow rager and wonder why we aren't playing it. Print good cards instead of forcing your new cards on us. 

That would require balancing though and Blizzard, you straight up can not balance this game. Removing cards, creates space for other classic cards to be dominate, and we will be back at square one until I only the most unplayable cards of classic remain. Which begs the question, why make classic evergreen if it isn't actually evergreen?

 

 Rotating cards out makes room for new archetypes.  Who cares if new and actually good Rogue cards are released if Miracle Rogue is strictly better?  Who cares about Menagerie Warden (an actually good card) when Maly Druid is strictly better?  Why would you run an 8-drop that wasn't Ragnaros?  

An aside, Shaku is seeing play in some Miracle Rogue lists. 

I feel Leeroy won't be changed. He may have been given advantage by certain aggro decks but he's just a finisher once someone is within range, not really a card that will get someone there unless you have a headshot crazy hand. Wreckless rocketeer is so close, there's a 1 mana difference and 1 damage while Leeroy is offset by spawning your opponent enough drakes to kill him the next turn, so he's literally a one turn closer with a potential downside. 

I'm not sure whether auctioneer will come out either, 4 health is easily taken out and being a 6 drop, most rogue decks will be hard pressed to budget it with the hit to coin generation of tomb pillager cycling out. When that happens it will basically mean you'll need stronger board presence for a 4 drop and you'll need more mana to make use of him on turn 6 (more pragmatically, you won't have use until the next turn, and then what is the use?)

Some cards I agree with, others not so much. An easy way to nerf auctioneer is simply by not adding a desirable coin generator in place of tomb pillager, as the value is based on being able to drop auctioneer and use him on the same turn. The unfortunate downside is this will kill maly for all but druid decks with the loss of emperor. Turn 10 is a long way to survive until. 

I like the current meta, some builds like pirate warrior and aggro shaman are pretty strong here, same with miracle / pirate rogue, but I feel aside from zoo (which with discard zoo, I've had reasonable luck with) most all classes have at least one pretty solid deck option. 

I'm a little worried, as I've had a ton of fun learning maly rogue, which while not the strongest deck is def one of the most fun. The hit of losing emperor and tomb pillager will more than likely kill this deck unless it turns into a total double cutpurse and double burgly bully and double counterfeit coin deck, but then the cost of trying to get maly out while trying to survive that long will definitely slide way down. 

I've looked into other desks I play and most all of them will be destroyed by the cycle, to the point of where I'm trying to weigh whether it's worthwhile to continue to craft cards for other desks. I have a somewhat gimmicky but somewhat fun taunt warrior, using cards like bolster to build strong taunt minions who fatigue swarm decks and are strong enough late game to finish for you once your opponent is low on lethality. It's reasonably effective but could be improved with cycopians and a couple higher end taunts for tech against swarm but why bother at this point?

That's what I had considered. I could fit him into my taunt warrior build and maybe tempo mage for now, but he could easily have value with new meta builds too. My other thought is to craft something for this season more specifically or just save the dust for something that comes out after the cycle.

Thanks, both of you. Rag is definitely a consideration, I could temporarily put him in my tempo mage deck probably, but with Flamewaker going out that too will be a dead deck more than likely. 

I already have Thalnos, he was one of the first legendaries I crafted. Tirion I don't know if I could find a current home for but could prove useful after the cycle. 

So I'm at the point in dust where I again have enough to craft a legendary, but I'm really unsure what to craft with the cycle looming; should I just hold on to it?

I have most staple legendaries for decks I play:

Maly, emperor, thalnos, impaler, edwin, leeroy, patches, finja, alex, hogger, barnes, sylvanas and twin emperor. 

Ignoring the cycle, I could round out my somewhat gimmicky, somewhat fun taunt warrior with a couple more epic / rare neutral taunts. 

Considering it, I could craft a Ragnaros, Tirion or Jarraxxas, as I do play an aggro murloc pally (no anyfin, more a swarm / scale) and a variant of zoo. I enjoy my maly rogue the most but with the hits of the cycle, I feel that will be pretty well dead (emperor, pillager, etc all exiting) , so trying to future proof seems fruitless there. 

Any thoughts? How are you guys crafting at this point with the cycle perhaps happening as soon as the end of this season, or next?