Hearthpwn

I don't think the meta is unbalanced, but it seems more swingy. Firebat commented on the recent Value Town episode that there are a variety of strong decks, and they either win strong or lose hard. In many cases you know you've lost as soon as you know what deck your playing. I've had more early concedes this expansion than I can recall... though I am human and have been playing since beta. So, it's possible I'm sensing it's worse than it is.

When your deck is slightly unfavored, then clever play can squeeze out a win. When you deck is hugely unfavored, you just lose. The reverse is also true. If your deck is slightly favored, then your opponent has a chance to outsmart you. If your deck is hugely favored, you just play cards and win.

I personally enjoy the meta more when decks are 55/45 or 60/40 against each other instead of 75/25. You have to be on your toes.

Here's my suggestion to Blizzard in the form of a business meeting script:

"How's the Shudderwock testing going?"

"Good. We can't think of every combo possible, but we know enough to know that it gets pretty out of hand in the late game. There could be infinite combo potential."

"How out of hand?"

"Well, the animations take a long time."

"Hmm, should we print a tech card that suppresses battlecry? Maybe a minion with decent health or stealth? Something that doesn't lock Shudderwock down but requires some skill as to when it should be played?"

"Good idea."

That is true. OTK is not interactive by nature. Interestingly, we used to have Dirty Rat as tool to somewhat combat it. Maybe the community wouldn't be up in arms if there was tech tool to combat (and I mean combat it, not disable it). With Dirty Rat, there was at least a chance you could pull Archmage Antonidas or Sorcerer's Apprentice early.

Battletag: FrenchMan#1145

Region: NA

Trade Only?: Yes, you first.

Battletag: FrenchMan#1145
Region: NA
Trade Only?: Yes, you go first

Interesting change to Crystal Core. It solves the issue of charge minions, so rogue can still have a strong board but doesn't have the insane level of burst. It makes silence and transform effects (e.g., Hex and Devolve) relevant. It weakens de-buffs without making them totally ineffective. Yet the threat of 5/5s is still present. I kinda like this idea.

I might reword it to "At the end of each turn, your minions become 5/5".

Quote from Tze >>

@KRFournier; also anecdotally, I've beaten Quest Rogue with Control Shaman (and my list is not particularly fast or particularly good). Aggressive use of Hex/Devolve is pretty important, and if I had actually built it more proactively I think it would been a lot easier to push the game. Keep in mind, I'm not favored and I realize that; all I did was play to the weaknesses of Rogue the best I could, got a bit lucky, and won, simply because my mindset wasn't that I had lost the game before it had even started. Mindset in those matchups is exactly where I think people tend to sabotage themselves. It was a very close win and a very tricky game to navigate, but giving up doesn't help either of those.

Interesting anecdote. I just now played against Quest Rogue as Shaman. I had a full board, full health, card advantage, and two hexes and a devolve in my hand, yet I already knew I lost. I think that helps pinpoint people's frustrations. As a general rule, people get annoyed when everything they do amounts to nothing. Granted, Quest Rogue is a hard counter to my Shaman deck. I get that. But it's one thing to be countered by tech cards, superior play, or plain bad luck. It's another thing to be countered in such a way that you've lost before the game started.

People just want their cards to work. Nobody is asking for their cards to automatically win, but they would like them to work.

If at all, try not to attribute motives. This isn't about making control players happy or just being salty (though I can't speak for everyone in this thread). That is why I emphasized the need to allow more answers rather than to just nerf the deck into oblivion. I like the deck concept, and if there is no way to make some kind of change without killing the deck, I'd rather keep it around. If changing the stats to 4/4 is too extreme, so be it, but anything that allows a other classes to interact with the deck will improve the overall enjoyment of the match up. That's why I suggested silence effects being more effective. The existence of Spellbreaker and Ironbeak Owl as neutral cards would allow other decks to tech for the match up, adding one more way to combat the deck.

If I could sum up my thesis: decks should have multiple consistent counters that do not have to be equally efficacious.

I grant there are other counters to Quest Rogue. Mages can play turn 1 Kabal Lackey into Counterspell, but that is not remotely consistent. Most classes that can clear a board of 5/5s can only do so with the right combination of cards, 6 mana, or both; yet this is still inconsistent because those classes usually cannot deal with the board immediately filling up with 5/5s on the next turn.

I know people are quick to judge, assuming that critics must only like archetype X and want to nerf all its counters, but that's not the case for me here. I've enjoyed playing a variety of decks in this expansion. The meta is healthy. There's nothing wrong, however, with pondering ways to make the meta a tad fitter.

I like Brian Kibler's remarks in his video. His point is not that Quest is over-powered. The problem is that you cannot tech against it. The only reliable way to beat Quest Rogue is to race them. And it has to be a very fast race, which is why Pirate Warrior or aggressive Murloc Paladin can work well. But that's it. Race them or lose, because they have too much power for most decks to effectively deal with once the quest is complete. Even classes with sufficient board clears struggle to deal with a board immediately reloaded with charging 5/5s.

In contrast, Freeze Mage can be beaten by racing them, adding Eater of Secrets, or adding healing cards. Pirate warrior can be beaten by adding early game removal, more taunt, or more healing.

There needs to be more ways to deal with it. Kibler goes into those as well. I can't help but agree with him that cards like Mass Dispel should remove the 5/5 stats. Barring that, adjusting the stats to 4/4 would go a long way.

Controlled the game as KT for 10 turns. I had four minions. He had none. He then clears my board for 0 mana and plays two 5 mana minions. Every turn after that my minions die and Rafaam still has enough mana to play a legendary each turn.

@Hearthpwn, please move the quest rewards next to their respective quests. I know they are technically tokens, but it's frustrating scrolling back and forth.

Battletag : FrenchMan#1145

Region : NA

Trade : Yes, you go first.

It's pretty clear that you cannot use this card to "convert" Innervates into permanent crystals. If you play this on turn 1 with two innervates and a coin, you will get exactly 1 2/2 and be 1 mana crystal behind your opponent. I think this might be targeting ramp druids on the back end. Heavy ramp druids sometimes have more mana than they need, and this is a way for them to fill the board in the late game.

Battletag: FrenchMan#1145

Region: NA

Trade Only: Yes, you go first