I'm probably just very unfamiliar with the archetype (in fact I know I am), but it seems odd to me that I've never really seen Yogg-Saron, Hope's End in any core or optional card lists for the deck.
I know that the point of the deck is essential to have a "miracle" and play ten billion spells into drawing lots of end-game options, Arcane Giants, etc., but wouldn't Yogg be extremely useful in a deck that casts this many spells if you ever fall behind?
Or is there something I'm missing and there isn't really room or ever an ideal chance to Yogg when playing this deck? I assume there's a reason why Yogg isn't used -- because maybe it's been tried and didn't work out? -- but I'm wondering what that reason is and I'd be interested to find if maybe it hasn't been tried much yet. Seems like Valeera the Hollow in particular could feed Yogg to epic sizes. Maybe I just think Yogg is way funner than he actually is valuable. xP
a big problem with yogg in miracle is that you spend your time thinning your deck. No one want to play yogg with 2-5 cards left in deck since it can cost you the game. Also, most miracle cards are ran to combo off of auctioneer. drawing a yogg mid combo will stop your auctioneer train.
I do believe Yogg was experimented with in Miracle Rogue before his nerf. I'm not certain why he isn't played anymore, but from what I can tell Miracle Rogue doesn't want a 10-mana card polluting it's draws, when it relies so heavily on chaining low-cost cards for Auctioneer and combo activation.
There are a lot of reasons why but the main one is because miracle rogue can fatigue itself easily already with big auctioneer turns, and a lot of spells Yogg randomly casts draw cards. So it's easy to kill yourself with Yogg in a miracle deck.
Well Yogg is not THAT bad in miracle but it is so RNG while miracle is so fine tuned than why risking losing your lethal if you made it to turn 10, when victory is most of the times atteinable at that point?
Funny you post this. I was watching Asmodai on Twitch last night and he was running Huntard and went up against a Miracle Rogue running Yogg. Yogg won the Rogue the game too. He had NO way of winning without Yogg! lol
What Yogg is not, is a consistent card. You could get triple Pyroblast to the enemy's face, or you could Mindgames into a Soulpriest and then Greater Healing your own face.
Or you could drop Yogg, have him Fireball or Poly or Hex himself, and have just wasted 10 mana.
If you put a card in your deck to MAYBE recover when you're behind, that means you're planning on not doing well. So the basic concept of adding Yogg is a bad idea, it means you expect to regularly get so far behind that the only way out is to RNG your way out. And if you don't expect to use him in a significant percentage of your games, why even run him?
Before nerf you have a very good chance to turn of the tables because the majority of spells are positive effects for the cast but after nerf you have a good chance of Yogg hit yourself with one random spell and negate the full effect, it is too risky for a 10 manas card.
Because yogg is actually shit lol If you play 100+ games with it, yeah it will probably have some decent ones and some others that will give you the win when there was no hope at all but overall it's a pretty bad card and more often ths not it will either not do anything useful or will fuck you up hard. Yogg is used as a panic button and it is a terrible one, you have to wait until turn 10 to use it (So it's absolutely dead on your hand uo to that point) and then it's all you can use in your turn and i it doesn't do something insane you either loose immediatly or you give our opponent a free turn, that's the reason you usually see yogg played uh oh it did nothing...1...2...3... You win this one*BOOM*
The points about not wanting to draw Yogg in the midst of Auctioneer combos, fatigue concerns, and using Vanish to recover from bad situations make perfect sense actually and more or less explain it to me.
Wonder if there's other Valeera DK/Yogg-based archetypes that could be achieved though...
Funny you post this. I was watching Asmodai on Twitch last night and he was running Huntard and went up against a Miracle Rogue running Yogg. Yogg won the Rogue the game too. He had NO way of winning without Yogg! lol
If you put a card in your deck to MAYBE recover when you're behind, that means you're planning on not doing well. So the basic concept of adding Yogg is a bad idea, it means you expect to regularly get so far behind that the only way out is to RNG your way out. And if you don't expect to use him in a significant percentage of your games, why even run him?
I agree with the other guy that Vanish is a preferable include over Yogg in this deck if you need to recover from a bad position, especially since it can give you back your combos and battlecries or protect your Auctioneer, so I don't disagree. The only thing that bothers me is your notion that including cards to recover from bad game-states is a bad idea; it's not, and good deckbuilding often involves making concessions for problems you may encounter.
Yogg of course is an inconsistent answer whereas something like Vanish is much more consistent, so again I still agree about Yogg here overall. Yogg might still be funner though. xD
Because yogg is actually shit lol If you play 100+ games with it, yeah it will probably have some decent ones and some others that will give you the win when there was no hope at all but overall it's a pretty bad card and more often ths not it will either not do anything useful or will fuck you up hard. Yogg is used as a panic button and it is a terrible one, you have to wait until turn 10 to use it (So it's absolutely dead on your hand uo to that point) and then it's all you can use in your turn and i it doesn't do something insane you either loose immediatly or you give our opponent a free turn, that's the reason you usually see yogg played uh oh it did nothing...1...2...3... You win this one*BOOM*
This is reminding me of some discussions I had about old Soraka in League of Legends, especially when you look at Yogg's play statistics. Yogg is played very little (as Soraka was) but his winrate in decks is actually positive; decks with Yogg have a 51% winrate.
Yes, games where Yogg is actually played end in losses 65% of the time... but Yogg is meant to be played from a losing position in the first place so his actually winrate when played is always going to be lower than other cards. Wish I could look up specific ranking statistics without an account. @_@
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I'm probably just very unfamiliar with the archetype (in fact I know I am), but it seems odd to me that I've never really seen Yogg-Saron, Hope's End in any core or optional card lists for the deck.
I know that the point of the deck is essential to have a "miracle" and play ten billion spells into drawing lots of end-game options, Arcane Giants, etc., but wouldn't Yogg be extremely useful in a deck that casts this many spells if you ever fall behind?
Or is there something I'm missing and there isn't really room or ever an ideal chance to Yogg when playing this deck? I assume there's a reason why Yogg isn't used -- because maybe it's been tried and didn't work out? -- but I'm wondering what that reason is and I'd be interested to find if maybe it hasn't been tried much yet. Seems like Valeera the Hollow in particular could feed Yogg to epic sizes. Maybe I just think Yogg is way funner than he actually is valuable. xP
a big problem with yogg in miracle is that you spend your time thinning your deck. No one want to play yogg with 2-5 cards left in deck since it can cost you the game. Also, most miracle cards are ran to combo off of auctioneer. drawing a yogg mid combo will stop your auctioneer train.
I do believe Yogg was experimented with in Miracle Rogue before his nerf. I'm not certain why he isn't played anymore, but from what I can tell Miracle Rogue doesn't want a 10-mana card polluting it's draws, when it relies so heavily on chaining low-cost cards for Auctioneer and combo activation.
It's clutter in your hand, a dead draw in a deck that is full of dead draws, and it doesn't even work most of the times.
The 1st step towards a better game is firing Mike Donais! We had enough of his "skillful" balances!
#FireMikeDonais
There are a lot of reasons why but the main one is because miracle rogue can fatigue itself easily already with big auctioneer turns, and a lot of spells Yogg randomly casts draw cards. So it's easy to kill yourself with Yogg in a miracle deck.
Well Yogg is not THAT bad in miracle but it is so RNG while miracle is so fine tuned than why risking losing your lethal if you made it to turn 10, when victory is most of the times atteinable at that point?
I feel like if you want a high cost "finisher", Malygos is just the more consistent dragon to have. And even Malygos doesn't get played these days.
Twitch name: Anatak15
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Funny you post this. I was watching Asmodai on Twitch last night and he was running Huntard and went up against a Miracle Rogue running Yogg. Yogg won the Rogue the game too. He had NO way of winning without Yogg! lol
Yogg is a fun card.
What Yogg is not, is a consistent card. You could get triple Pyroblast to the enemy's face, or you could Mindgames into a Soulpriest and then Greater Healing your own face.
Or you could drop Yogg, have him Fireball or Poly or Hex himself, and have just wasted 10 mana.
If you put a card in your deck to MAYBE recover when you're behind, that means you're planning on not doing well. So the basic concept of adding Yogg is a bad idea, it means you expect to regularly get so far behind that the only way out is to RNG your way out. And if you don't expect to use him in a significant percentage of your games, why even run him?
Before nerf you have a very good chance to turn of the tables because the majority of spells are positive effects for the cast but after nerf you have a good chance of Yogg hit yourself with one random spell and negate the full effect, it is too risky for a 10 manas card.
Because yogg is actually shit lol If you play 100+ games with it, yeah it will probably have some decent ones and some others that will give you the win when there was no hope at all but overall it's a pretty bad card and more often ths not it will either not do anything useful or will fuck you up hard. Yogg is used as a panic button and it is a terrible one, you have to wait until turn 10 to use it (So it's absolutely dead on your hand uo to that point) and then it's all you can use in your turn and i it doesn't do something insane you either loose immediatly or you give our opponent a free turn, that's the reason you usually see yogg played uh oh it did nothing...1...2...3... You win this one*BOOM*
Also current miracle rogue builds play 2 copies of vanish, which is an out against a large enemy board.