So I posted a thread a while ago about why I run Kezan Mystic, and what anti-secret tech is the best.
This game is further proof of the Kezan Mystic masterrace! Watch this poor Quest Mage get their hopes and dreams devoured by glorious RNG, and the tragic tale of their combo failing anyway because of the aforementioned Ice Block steal!
Let it be known, that a slow deck beat a Quest Mage because RNG decided it to be so! Also because Rin, the First Disciple exists.
RNG is not something you control, meaning you didn't control you win, you just got luckily handed a win without actually deserving one.
Odd. Considering the point of the thread is that I got lucky and demolished a Quest Mage. And for you to be defending a deck that requires 6 separate roles of RNG, and stalling enough to able to do their combo. If that's your logic, you should never be proud of playing Quest Mage in the first place.
You were lucky with Paletress, her RNG gave you the win, nothing else.
Funny you should mention that. It's almost as if the only way to beat Quest Mage is to get lucky with RNG. Does that mean, God forbid, that Quest Mage is an unfair and stupid deck that requires dumb luck to beat?
I would never have thought that you'd say that, but you managed to entirely prove my point right.
Do you have some kind of weird obsession with Quest Mage, which has never even been a high tier deck and always has been very fringe? Already in the previous thread, you were asking for which anti secret tech is the best, but at the end of the day, despite all the facts you concluded the discussion that Kezan is still the best, because you get some orgasmic feelings about stealing Quest Mage’s Ice Block. Big deal.
Do you have some kind of weird obsession with Quest Mage, which has never even been a high tier deck and always has been very fringe? Already in the previous thread, you were asking for which anti secret tech is the best, but at the end of the day, despite all the facts you concluded the discussion that Kezan is still the best, because you get some orgasmic feelings about stealing Quest Mage’s Ice Block. Big deal.
Who cares if it's low tier, it's cancer and I bust mad nuts when I cuck them.
Odd. Considering the point of the thread is that I got lucky and demolished a Quest Mage. And for you to be defending a deck that requires 6 separate roles of RNG, and stalling enough to able to do their combo. If that's your logic, you should never be proud of playing Quest Mage in the first place.
Funny you should mention that. It's almost as if the only way to beat Quest Mage is to get lucky with RNG. Does that mean, God forbid, that Quest Mage is an unfair and stupid deck that requires dumb luck to beat?
I would never have thought that you'd say that, but you managed to entirely prove my point right.
Funny though, that even with 6 RNG rolls, he didn't receive a free win from the RNG, while you were handed the win from the first Paletress roll. You hit jackpot with a single roll.
Additionally, I love the Mage Quest card, but funnily enough, the most I use it is for Infinite Burn Mages, the main list of which I use only uses 2 Primordial Glyphs as cards that have RNG, the other 28 cards are not random (Mad Scientist pulls randomly between 2 of my Secrets in the deck).
You know what is funny? You seem to not be very versed in the Combo playstyle. Combo decks don't want to use Random effects, you want to use the least amount possible. This was the first criticism I made of Open the Waygate when they announced it, that is was a Combo centric card that request the player to use Random Generators, which Combo decks don't want to do since that lowers Combo consistency. Quest Mage decks don't use them because they want to, they use them because the Quest forces them to.
(In case you are curious, the reason I only use 2 Glyphs is because Antonidas Fireballs also count for the Quest, which I use to complete it on the Combo turn and break the Block)
And I have no reason why I should ever not be proud to play Quest Mage in any of it's variants, Combo decks are the most demanding from a Technical Play perspective, this is extremely easy to prove, so why would I not be proud to be proficient with them?
As for the second part, no, RNG is not the only way. It might be the only way for an unexperienced player, but for an experienced player, it is not. It is hard, no doubt, since Combo is favoured by default, and if both players play perfectly, then yes, it is impossible to beat the Combo, and that is how it should be (If both people play perfectly, the player with the favoured strategy has the right to win, they decided to use the favoured strategy.)
You are coming from the wrong assumption. Reality is you should not be able to beat Combo as Control, specially if both people play correctly. This is how it should work, for you to want to overlook this fact is the problem. You shouldn't be able to beat them.
If HS didn't have RNG, and you both play perfectly, you would always lose to Combo, always, because their entire deck plays much more effectively in the matchup. The only fair way for you to win is for you to play perfectly, and your opponent to make mistakes, or for you to at least play much better than the opponent who made many mistakes in the game. Otherwise, for you to win is purely unfair. Which is the case when RNG decides the game, you were unfairly given a win.
Your entire point is self contradictory. You go from saying "I love the Mage Quest" to saying "I don't like it because RNG". Then you spend more time blabbing on about your Quest Mage and how Quest Mage is a glorious deck for high IQ players (BTW, Patron Warrior was a technical deck, Quest Mage is Aggro Shaman compared to that, and Patron Warrior was hated too). And how you're allowed to be proud that you play a deck, yet I can't be proud of a win just because "leh RNG roll gave it to you". I beat a matchup that was stacked in my favour because the RNG willed it. Yet I'm not allowed to be proud of that but you're allowed to be proud of playing your deck.
Then you go on to say "No RNG rolls isn't the only way to beat Quest Mage if you're not inexperienced" before saying "Combo always beats control if both players play perfect". Which is easily the most contradictory bit of logic you've used. It's a bipolar switch of "No you can beat it to" "No you can't beat it". That's not how a game should work, no deck should deserve a 100% winrate against another deck. It's the reason people hated all the combo Druids, because their control deck could never win against the Druid's combo. "Never lose" matchups are not healthy for any game, and they're not healthy for Hearthstone.
That's the reason combo decks (including Quest Mage) are hated by lots of players. Because they have nothing but "always lose" (against aggro) and "always win" matchups (against control). Control, midrange, and aggro all have favourable matchups. But you're able to squeeze a win against either one with enough luck (Yes, luck. I know, it's awful isn't it?). Even in the perfect hypothetical world of ultimate play, those three decks can all pull off wins against favourable matchups. Combo is far more polarising for the fact that it doesn't "counter" decks (where a matchup is unfavourable enough that it takes some good luck to win) as much as it invalidates decks (Oh you brought control to a Star Aligner Druid? Sorry mate there goes your win). Control already has the losing matchup with midrange, and you can still beat that somewhat frequently. But combo suddenly showing up and going "Well this is a pretty much 100% winrate so shame".
And then there's the best part. The part where you still go "BUT THAT WIN WAS UNFAIR YOU DIDN'T DESERVE IT". Sorry mate, but the same can (and is) said about your precious combo decks. And then go on to blame RNG for everything while ignoring the fact that it's a card game and every single card game in the history of the entire world involves RNG (excluding that one obscure card game someone will try and mention because they think it means they win). From the moment a deck is shuffled, RNG is involved. So don't tell me that "RNG is the only reason you won and that's awful" until we're playing chess. Because card games involve RNG by default.
I highrolled and that gave me a win, yes. But I don't think you can tell me my wins are unfair when you're playing a deck that is in this TCG, and many other TCGs too (Because God knows Yu-Gi-Oh! has enough combo decks that everyone is sick of), hated by many people for being unfair. There are unfair and unfun decks to play against, decks that instantly invalidate types of playstyles simply because they exist (whether it be old Quest Rogue or Mecha'thun Druid), and they're all disliked by loads of players for the simple reason that the win is almost always decided from the moment the game starts. But apparently it's when the usual losers turn around and win that it becomes "unfair".
1. Your entire point is self contradictory. You go from saying "I love the Mage Quest" to saying "I don't like it because RNG". Then you spend more time blabbing on about your Quest Mage and how Quest Mage is a glorious deck for high IQ players (BTW, Patron Warrior was a technical deck, Quest Mage is Aggro Shaman compared to that, and Patron Warrior was hated too). And how you're allowed to be proud that you play a deck, yet I can't be proud of a win just because "leh RNG roll gave it to you". I beat a matchup that was stacked in my favour because the RNG willed it. Yet I'm not allowed to be proud of that but you're allowed to be proud of playing your deck.
2. Then you go on to say "No RNG rolls isn't the only way to beat Quest Mage if you're not inexperienced" before saying "Combo always beats control if both players play perfect". Which is easily the most contradictory bit of logic you've used. It's a bipolar switch of "No you can beat it to" "No you can't beat it". That's not how a game should work, no deck should deserve a 100% winrate against another deck. It's the reason people hated all the combo Druids, because their control deck could never win against the Druid's combo. "Never lose" matchups are not healthy for any game, and they're not healthy for Hearthstone.
3. That's the reason combo decks (including Quest Mage) are hated by lots of players. Because they have nothing but "always lose" (against aggro) and "always win" matchups (against control). Control, midrange, and aggro all have favourable matchups. But you're able to squeeze a win against either one with enough luck (Yes, luck. I know, it's awful isn't it?). Even in the perfect hypothetical world of ultimate play, those three decks can all pull off wins against favourable matchups. Combo is far more polarising for the fact that it doesn't "counter" decks (where a matchup is unfavourable enough that it takes some good luck to win) as much as it invalidates decks (Oh you brought control to a Star Aligner Druid? Sorry mate there goes your win). Control already has the losing matchup with midrange, and you can still beat that somewhat frequently. But combo suddenly showing up and going "Well this is a pretty much 100% winrate so shame".
4. And then there's the best part. The part where you still go "BUT THAT WIN WAS UNFAIR YOU DIDN'T DESERVE IT". Sorry mate, but the same can (and is) said about your precious combo decks. And then go on to blame RNG for everything while ignoring the fact that it's a card game and every single card game in the history of the entire world involves RNG (excluding that one obscure card game someone will try and mention because they think it means they win). From the moment a deck is shuffled, RNG is involved. So don't tell me that "RNG is the only reason you won and that's awful" until we're playing chess. Because card games involve RNG by default.
5. I highrolled and that gave me a win, yes. But I don't think you can tell me my wins are unfair when you're playing a deck that is in this TCG, and many other TCGs too (Because God knows Yu-Gi-Oh! has enough combo decks that everyone is sick of), hated by many people for being unfair. There are unfair and unfun decks to play against, decks that instantly invalidate types of playstyles simply because they exist (whether it be old Quest Rogue or Mecha'thun Druid), and they're all disliked by loads of players for the simple reason that the win is almost always decided from the moment the game starts. But apparently it's when the usual losers turn around and win that it becomes "unfair".
1. How exactly is it contradictory? I love the Mage Quest because I love it's effect, an Extra turn is the perfect kind of effect for the Combo playstyle. I don't like the requirement to complete it, because it deviates heavily from the focus of what the Combo playstyle relies on.
I didn't say Quest Mage was as demanding as Combo Patron Warrior, for the most part it wasn't. That still doesn't detract from the fact that it is still far more challenging than the vast majority of decks in the game.
I am not sure I understand your question. How am I proud of playing a challenging deck? Well, my results with the deck are extremely dependant on my performance, so I am proud of performing well. The reason I don't understand being proud of winning by RNG is the fact that you do not control RNG, and winning by RNG is not your actions giving you the win, it is simply you being lucky. Personally, I am not proud of being lucky, I'm proud of performing well. You might feel the opposite.
2. It is not contradictory. I think you didn't extract the correct idea so I'll explain it for you. You shouldn't be able to beat Combo as Control in perfect circumstances. Those are extremely rare, in most games, neither you or your opponent are playing perfectly. This is what gives you the window to beat Combo. You need to have your opponent make mistakes so you can take advantage of them, or to induce your opponent in error. This is why I stated that an experienced player can actually win. Given the fact that the vast majority of players don't play perfectly, if you know how to induce the opponent in error, you can force the opponent into mistakes that you can take advantage of. This does require the opponent to fall into the mistake, but that is the difference between an experienced and unexperienced opponent. The experienced one will not fall, and you won't win against them, and that is perfectly fair.
And again, in perfect circumstances, Combo should always beat Control. You might not like this fact, but that doesn't change it. If both players play perfectly, Combo will always beat Control, that is how it is meant to work. Combo is more efficient in the matchup, the whole strategy is made to beat Control.
When you eliminate RNG, when you use perfect circumstances, what you get is a perfect Rock-Paper-Scissors model. See Rock as Aggro, Paper as Combo/Midrange and Scissors as Control, and you see exactly how perfect balance and circumstances look like in a Strategy Card Game. All the variation that exists in Hearthstone from the model happens BECAUSE there is RNG and imperfect circumstances, because most players don't play perfectly.
3. You are still missing the point, you continue to want to win matchups you shouldn't win. I don't care what you like or don't like. You might see a lot of hatred for Combo decks in the Forums because you also see a vast majority of Control players in the Forums. They will complain about what gives them the most problems, Combo. The vast Majority of players actually play Aggro or even Midrange, they don't care much for Combo, many hate Control because that is what give them most problems.
4. I am well aware that every card game has RNG. But you shouldn't mix Card Draw Order RNG with Random Generation/Effect RNG. You cannot avoid Card Draw Order RNG, you can avoid Random Generation/Effect RNG. And again, both of these RNG types do affect the game, and the fact is, Wins decided by either of them are unfair. Neither player has control of them, so games decide purely by these aspects are unfair. If you cannot understand this, it is hard for me to discuss with you.
This is also the reason why I present you the model for no RNG and perfect circumstances. Rock Paper Scissors is what happens when you achieve both of these. They are not the case in Hearthstone, and that is the reason why Combo vs Control is not 100-0. The closer you get to perfect circumstances, the closer you get to no RNG, the more polarised it becomes, and this is how it is supposed to work.
5. This is the last time I'll try to say this in a way you should understand. What makes it unfair is the fact that the win came from RNG rather than player performance. If you won that game without the need of RNG, if you simply played perfectly and exploited mistakes of your opponent to win, I would congratulate you on that, because that is something to be proud of. You should be proud of outplaying your opponent, I personally don't see any reason to be proud of lucking out a win. The difference is whether the win came from your performance, or luck itself. You control your performance, you don't control luck.
I hope this is easy enough to understand.
I'll sum it up like this, since at this point you're just repeating over and over with different flavours "NO YOU SHOULD HAVE LOST" and "WHY ARE YOU ALLOWED TO BE PROUD OF WINNING A LOSING MATCHUP". I'm proud that luck was on my side, and I'm proud I got to demolish a Quest Mage so much, even if I "leh didn't deserve it". I'm allowed to be proud of getting lucky. The game has RNG, and people are allowed to use that RNG to win. Don't like it? Get stuffed.
And the fact you're to sit there and trying to justify to me why I don't deserve to win against a deck, makes it seem like you're not so much "standing up to the poor combo players who are hated by everyone for their coin flip games" as much as you are just angry that I beat a deck I despise playing against.
I play mill mage and I like watching combo decks get their cards burned, I do not even need Kezan Mystic to make them hate their wretched existence.
Breaking combo decks is the single most satisfying thing to do, especially since they get so salty and start whining that "YOU JUST GOT LUCKY". Solitaire decks deserve every single loss they get. They are the mistake of card games.
The amount of shit OP got for this thread is pretty ubelievable. Makes me think there's a lot of quest mage players around.
I agree btw, I love using kezan to steal their block when they think they're sitting safe waiting for their fun and interactive win.
Honestly, I'm starting to think the guy I beat in that replay is the "Defender of Quest Mage" threadwarrior. Considering they're trying tooth and nail to tell me that I didn't deserve a win, while playing a deck that's whole existence is an undeserved win.
So I posted a thread a while ago about why I run Kezan Mystic, and what anti-secret tech is the best.
This game is further proof of the Kezan Mystic masterrace! Watch this poor Quest Mage get their hopes and dreams devoured by glorious RNG, and the tragic tale of their combo failing anyway because of the aforementioned Ice Block steal!
Let it be known, that a slow deck beat a Quest Mage because RNG decided it to be so! Also because Rin, the First Disciple exists.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/X7Bc8U5TuR8D9k2i9nykeS
(V) (;,,;) (V)
Odd. Considering the point of the thread is that I got lucky and demolished a Quest Mage. And for you to be defending a deck that requires 6 separate roles of RNG, and stalling enough to able to do their combo. If that's your logic, you should never be proud of playing Quest Mage in the first place.
Funny you should mention that. It's almost as if the only way to beat Quest Mage is to get lucky with RNG. Does that mean, God forbid, that Quest Mage is an unfair and stupid deck that requires dumb luck to beat?
I would never have thought that you'd say that, but you managed to entirely prove my point right.
(V) (;,,;) (V)
Wasnt the point of the thread to 'prove' kezan mystic is the best anti secret tech? Even though you gave 1 game in which you lucked out as evidence??
That's Incredible!
We all know that Kezan Mystic isn't as viable as Eater of Secrets. But the satisfaction I felt when I took that Ice Block proves on its own that Kezan Mystic is the best anti-secret tech.
(V) (;,,;) (V)
So the amount of astisfacton someone feels is a valid indicator to compare tech cards? nICE.
I will crush you!
Pointless thread.
Wait, you mean there's other ways to compare cards? NONSENSE!
(V) (;,,;) (V)
Nah man. This is the most important thread ever made.
(V) (;,,;) (V)
Do you have some kind of weird obsession with Quest Mage, which has never even been a high tier deck and always has been very fringe? Already in the previous thread, you were asking for which anti secret tech is the best, but at the end of the day, despite all the facts you concluded the discussion that Kezan is still the best, because you get some orgasmic feelings about stealing Quest Mage’s Ice Block. Big deal.
You’re about 3 years late on this one, bud.
Dibbity don't touch that!
Who cares if it's low tier, it's cancer and I bust mad nuts when I cuck them.
(V) (;,,;) (V)
Your entire point is self contradictory. You go from saying "I love the Mage Quest" to saying "I don't like it because RNG". Then you spend more time blabbing on about your Quest Mage and how Quest Mage is a glorious deck for high IQ players (BTW, Patron Warrior was a technical deck, Quest Mage is Aggro Shaman compared to that, and Patron Warrior was hated too). And how you're allowed to be proud that you play a deck, yet I can't be proud of a win just because "leh RNG roll gave it to you". I beat a matchup that was stacked in my favour because the RNG willed it. Yet I'm not allowed to be proud of that but you're allowed to be proud of playing your deck.
Then you go on to say "No RNG rolls isn't the only way to beat Quest Mage if you're not inexperienced" before saying "Combo always beats control if both players play perfect". Which is easily the most contradictory bit of logic you've used. It's a bipolar switch of "No you can beat it to" "No you can't beat it". That's not how a game should work, no deck should deserve a 100% winrate against another deck. It's the reason people hated all the combo Druids, because their control deck could never win against the Druid's combo. "Never lose" matchups are not healthy for any game, and they're not healthy for Hearthstone.
That's the reason combo decks (including Quest Mage) are hated by lots of players. Because they have nothing but "always lose" (against aggro) and "always win" matchups (against control). Control, midrange, and aggro all have favourable matchups. But you're able to squeeze a win against either one with enough luck (Yes, luck. I know, it's awful isn't it?). Even in the perfect hypothetical world of ultimate play, those three decks can all pull off wins against favourable matchups. Combo is far more polarising for the fact that it doesn't "counter" decks (where a matchup is unfavourable enough that it takes some good luck to win) as much as it invalidates decks (Oh you brought control to a Star Aligner Druid? Sorry mate there goes your win). Control already has the losing matchup with midrange, and you can still beat that somewhat frequently. But combo suddenly showing up and going "Well this is a pretty much 100% winrate so shame".
And then there's the best part. The part where you still go "BUT THAT WIN WAS UNFAIR YOU DIDN'T DESERVE IT". Sorry mate, but the same can (and is) said about your precious combo decks. And then go on to blame RNG for everything while ignoring the fact that it's a card game and every single card game in the history of the entire world involves RNG (excluding that one obscure card game someone will try and mention because they think it means they win). From the moment a deck is shuffled, RNG is involved. So don't tell me that "RNG is the only reason you won and that's awful" until we're playing chess. Because card games involve RNG by default.
I highrolled and that gave me a win, yes. But I don't think you can tell me my wins are unfair when you're playing a deck that is in this TCG, and many other TCGs too (Because God knows Yu-Gi-Oh! has enough combo decks that everyone is sick of), hated by many people for being unfair. There are unfair and unfun decks to play against, decks that instantly invalidate types of playstyles simply because they exist (whether it be old Quest Rogue or Mecha'thun Druid), and they're all disliked by loads of players for the simple reason that the win is almost always decided from the moment the game starts. But apparently it's when the usual losers turn around and win that it becomes "unfair".
(V) (;,,;) (V)
Wild is eternal. Just like my hatred for Quest Mage and combo decks.
(V) (;,,;) (V)
I play mill mage and I like watching combo decks get their cards burned, I do not even need Kezan Mystic to make them hate their wretched existence.
That card is pure love
Skidaddle skidoodle your Milhouse manastorm is now a noodle
The amount of shit OP got for this thread is pretty ubelievable. Makes me think there's a lot of quest mage players around.
I agree btw, I love using kezan to steal their block when they think they're sitting safe waiting for their fun and interactive win.
To me it seems like the thread is just pointless.
He's bragging about being lucky.
I'll sum it up like this, since at this point you're just repeating over and over with different flavours "NO YOU SHOULD HAVE LOST" and "WHY ARE YOU ALLOWED TO BE PROUD OF WINNING A LOSING MATCHUP". I'm proud that luck was on my side, and I'm proud I got to demolish a Quest Mage so much, even if I "leh didn't deserve it". I'm allowed to be proud of getting lucky. The game has RNG, and people are allowed to use that RNG to win. Don't like it? Get stuffed.
And the fact you're to sit there and trying to justify to me why I don't deserve to win against a deck, makes it seem like you're not so much "standing up to the poor combo players who are hated by everyone for their coin flip games" as much as you are just angry that I beat a deck I despise playing against.
(V) (;,,;) (V)
Breaking combo decks is the single most satisfying thing to do, especially since they get so salty and start whining that "YOU JUST GOT LUCKY". Solitaire decks deserve every single loss they get. They are the mistake of card games.
Honestly, I'm starting to think the guy I beat in that replay is the "Defender of Quest Mage" threadwarrior. Considering they're trying tooth and nail to tell me that I didn't deserve a win, while playing a deck that's whole existence is an undeserved win.
I'm in the process of crafting a golden one. Just for this game.
(V) (;,,;) (V)