I've read your wall, and I'll be the first to admit I do not like Genn/Baku, even if I admire their ability to let underrepresented cards see play (respect to RavenSunHP for making me see that). Also kudos to you for writing that much about the topic and managing to make sense throughout. There's only one part of the text with which I think you didn't quite see the point of the opposing arguments:
4) "they directly and indirectly affect future card design, since every card has to have their cost designed around them"
this is probably the worst argument I ever heard. HOW IS THIS A BAD THING?. For years we have had terrible card design purely based on lack of foresight on the devs' part. Why is it a bad thing to have them actually deliberately exclude certain cards from Odd/Even decks in order to keep them from being overpowered?
I think the issue that argument illustrates is not really every card having to be designed around them, but how difficult that task actually is. The devs are human, and one miss can be enough to push these already volatile decks over the top. Of course, they can just nerf that card and make it cost (1) more (whether or not the card is problematic on its own).
This is still not enough of a problem to butcher anything, especially before the nerfs arrive and impact the meta. There are probably at least 3 sets of nerfs to come this year, though, and time will tell how hard Baku and Genn will dictate them. If they do, it probably means the task above is as hard as it looks or more.
The rest of your text makes sense (unfortunately xD). The rest of your points debunked the opposition quite well.
Yeah, I have to admit that might have been my weakest point. I was mostly seeing the positive implications of devs being challenged and not being able to just dodge problematic cards by just retroactively fixing them instead. Maybe I'm putting too much faith into their ability. It's just that for the last months I have been very positively surprised about the progress of the game in general. Pretty much the entire year of the Raven and all nerfs up to this point have shown that the dev team has actually learned from their mistakes.
Also, if it helps you, I'm not really a fan of Genn/baku decks for the most part either. At least not those who are defined just through having their best cards in the respective mana slot (aka Odd Rogue, Even Paladin and Even Warlock). I still believe that the rotation will leave those particular decks in the dust and going Odd/even will end up as its own deckbuilding challnege instead of an amalgamation of overstatted minions and spells.
You make very good points, and everything you touch on, I agree with. However, I feel the negative part of Baku and Genn is the consistency. Maybe the hero powers aren’t “OP”, but it’s happening every time they play that deck. Reno decks have a huge disadvantage to build around, and sometimes they didn’t even get their build around cards. With these two cards, every game plays out about the same. You get the benefit no matter what. Part of a card game is drawing the cards, and Genn and Baku effectively say “Add a 0 mana card to your starting hand that upgrades/discounts your hero power”
on the flipside, inconsitency feels bad on both sides as well. I remember when people complained about Reno because matchups were pretty much decided by whether you drew Reno in time or not.
Hearthstone is a game with very limited card draw and that'S honestly one of its biggest flaw. So many cards and decks don't work because you don't draw your essentials in time or because amtchups literally depend on opening with specific cards.
If draw RNG is the only thing balancing a deck (like it is right now with hunters, who can win purely on getting Spellstone in their mullligan) then it bad design.
the consistency is the good thing about Baku/genn because it allows you to actually build a deck around the premise. i'd rather have more consistent cards with average power level than a bunch of highrolling bullshit like Barnes that people build decks around purely because of probability percentages.
You can't honestly tell me that a Spell hunter deck running BArnes + Y'shaarj just to get lucky and maybe close the game on turn 4 is better design than a deck with a consistent upgrade that's balanced around card limitations.
It’s true that highroll mechanics aren’t fun either, there is a middle ground. Sure, losing a game to a barnes sucks, but so does playing the same game against the same deck each time.
You make very good points, and everything you touch on, I agree with. However, I feel the negative part of Baku and Genn is the consistency. Maybe the hero powers aren’t “OP”, but it’s happening every time they play that deck. Reno decks have a huge disadvantage to build around, and sometimes they didn’t even get their build around cards. With these two cards, every game plays out about the same. You get the benefit no matter what. Part of a card game is drawing the cards, and Genn and Baku effectively say “Add a 0 mana card to your starting hand that upgrades/discounts your hero power”
on the flipside, inconsitency feels bad on both sides as well. I remember when people complained about Reno because matchups were pretty much decided by whether you drew Reno in time or not.
Hearthstone is a game with very limited card draw and that'S honestly one of its biggest flaw. So many cards and decks don't work because you don't draw your essentials in time or because amtchups literally depend on opening with specific cards.
If draw RNG is the only thing balancing a deck (like it is right now with hunters, who can win purely on getting Spellstone in their mullligan) then it bad design.
the consistency is the good thing about Baku/genn because it allows you to actually build a deck around the premise. i'd rather have more consistent cards with average power level than a bunch of highrolling bullshit like Barnes that people build decks around purely because of probability percentages.
You can't honestly tell me that a Spell hunter deck running BArnes + Y'shaarj just to get lucky and maybe close the game on turn 4 is better design than a deck with a consistent upgrade that's balanced around card limitations.
It’s true that highroll mechanics aren’t fun either, there is a middle ground. Sure, losing a game to a barnes sucks, but so does playing the same game against the same deck each time.
my guess is that this problem will somewhat fix itself after the rotation, mainly because the decklists will have to change their gameplan so much that they will become less consistent by default (for example, without Lost in the Jungle and Righteous Protector Odd Paladin will have a much harder time getting on the board early or refilling quickly).
On another note, you might be in a for a bad surprise. In Rumble Run, there have been a lot of exclusive minions with the text Start of the game: Draw this which kinda makes me think it's going to be an upcoming mechanic aimed at classes who rely a lot on having a one drop (imagine how much better Midrange Hunter would be if they had a legendary 1-mana 2/2 Beast that they drew at the start of the game. Or a 1/3 Elemental with the same function for Shaman). guess we'll see
Secondly, there is Warrior. Tank Up is broken. There is no way around it. Being able to constantly stack armor in class that is already hard enough to kill AND has access to a lot of grinding tools that make for very polarized matchups.
Thats the problem. I experimented a lot with vanilla control builds, trying to make Geosculptor Yip work and... Non-odd Warrior really isnt hard to kill. Yes, while there are a lot of great even-costed removals like Execute, Warpath or Blood Razor, actual armor gain cards are kinda meh. Drywhisker Armorer, Weapons Project, Unidentified Shield - these are all decent at best. Meanwhile, some great odd cards, like Supercollider or Reckless Flurry cant really be used without reliable armor source (e.g. Tank Up!) So you basically lose nothing in terms of removal, choosing baku, and you gain a lot of survivability.
As for Brawl, i feel strongly against nerfing it. Its random, never full clear and sometimes too slow already, so it would be wrong card to target. 6 is too slow, 4 is too strong. 5 is just fine.
So, the only good solution is 3 armor Tank Up! . After all, there is a reason why Ballista Shot is 3 dmg and not 4, that would only be logical to do the same for opposite HP.
I just get tired of all the talk about being, "oh this fits in even' and 'oh you won't have that in odd'. I liked the game better when you just picked out cards and made a deck. Then they had to go and print these garbage cards, and for what? It's not like the meta has more decks than before. It just makes design and balance more difficult than it already was, and it's not like Team 5 was seeing much success with that before. Just get rid of the even/odd bullshit and give us our game back. Send it to wild, I don't care, I will just not play wild anymore and use the dust to ride out what little is left of this fading game.
I can understand that, but I think that's bias on your side. The meta does, in fact, have way more decks than before (or at least matchups are more evenly spread).
There are still regular decks around. If a deck makes better use of all cards than they do with an uupgraded Hero power they won't use it, simple as that. Where's Even Hunter? Where's Odd Priest?
All Baku/Genn do is outshine regular decks that attempt to do the same thing (Odd Paladin is superior to a regular aggro paladin for example) but that would happen even if they didn't exist. People are still going to be playing the best decks available and in the best decklist will always make it to the top.
Your argument seems to be that you don't like to play Even/Odd. Then don't, but don't demand that Blizzard makes it so the only decks that are palyable are the ones you want to play.
No, my argument is that it is stupid crap that fucks up the game. You can spout about balance and the meta until you turn blue (and I'm sure you will), but it doesn't change the fact that we could have new mechanics and new cards instead of the devs diverting precious time to making everything fit into stupid even odd. It's not like it makes the game more entertaining - even if it is balanced it's just boring and pointless.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
I just get tired of all the talk about being, "oh this fits in even' and 'oh you won't have that in odd'. I liked the game better when you just picked out cards and made a deck. Then they had to go and print these garbage cards, and for what? It's not like the meta has more decks than before. It just makes design and balance more difficult than it already was, and it's not like Team 5 was seeing much success with that before. Just get rid of the even/odd bullshit and give us our game back. Send it to wild, I don't care, I will just not play wild anymore and use the dust to ride out what little is left of this fading game.
I can understand that, but I think that's bias on your side. The meta does, in fact, have way more decks than before (or at least matchups are more evenly spread).
There are still regular decks around. If a deck makes better use of all cards than they do with an uupgraded Hero power they won't use it, simple as that. Where's Even Hunter? Where's Odd Priest?
All Baku/Genn do is outshine regular decks that attempt to do the same thing (Odd Paladin is superior to a regular aggro paladin for example) but that would happen even if they didn't exist. People are still going to be playing the best decks available and in the best decklist will always make it to the top.
Your argument seems to be that you don't like to play Even/Odd. Then don't, but don't demand that Blizzard makes it so the only decks that are palyable are the ones you want to play.
No, my argument is that it is stupid crap that fucks up the game. You can spout about balance and the meta until you turn blue (and I'm sure you will), but it doesn't change the fact that we could have new mechanics and new cards instead of the devs diverting precious time to making everything fit into stupid even odd. It's not like it makes the game more entertaining - even if it is balanced it's just boring and pointless.
at this point you're not really making any arguments. You're just angry about Even/Odd decks for no other reason that they are effective and you don't like it.
Not every card will be designe to sepcifically fit into and Even/Odd deck. You wouldn't build Odd Deathrattle Rogue with Necrium Blade and Necrium Vial, despite both of those cards being very playable and odd.
If you just want to vent about how much you hate the archetype for no particular reason go to the salt thread. Entertainment is subjective and unless you have some actual arguments I don't know what you're still doing here.
Secondly, there is Warrior. Tank Up is broken. There is no way around it. Being able to constantly stack armor in class that is already hard enough to kill AND has access to a lot of grinding tools that make for very polarized matchups.
Thats the problem. I experimented a lot with vanilla control builds, trying to make Geosculptor Yip work and... Non-odd Warrior really isnt hard to kill. Yes, while there are a lot of great even-costed removals like Execute, Warpath or Blood Razor, actual armor gain cards are kinda meh. Drywhisker Armorer, Weapons Project, Unidentified Shield - these are all decent at best. Meanwhile, some great odd cards, like Supercollider or Reckless Flurry cant really be used without reliable armor source (e.g. Tank Up!) So you basically lose nothing in terms of removal, choosing baku, and you gain a lot of survivability.
As for Brawl, i feel strongly against nerfing it. Its random, never full clear and sometimes too slow already, so it would be wrong card to target. 6 is too slow, 4 is too strong. 5 is just fine.
So, the only good solution is 3 armor Tank Up! . After all, there is a reason why Ballista Shot is 3 dmg and not 4, that would only be logical to do the same for opposite HP.
the thing about nerfing just Tank UP is that itonly really delays the inevitable. At the end of the day, 3 armor a turn is still more than enough to outgrind most aggressive decks, because as long as you have the ability to wipe any board with brawl as well as eliminate any singular threat there'S no way for minion based decks to beat you any way other than luck.
My philosophy is that decks should have clear strengths and weaknesses. Druid used to have that when they didn't have good single target removal or board clears. Then they added stuff like Spreading Plague and Spellstone and ssuddenly going tall or wide was no longer an option.
I think Odd Warrior should follow these rules in such a way that decks that go wide quickly can snowball them down before they get to shore up their defenses (+ there are always neutral AoEs like BAron Geddon)
Honestly, I'm gonna have to wait for the next expansion and what counters they might bring. If there's a control deck that can utilize Mecha'thun as an alternate win condition t might be enough to keep odd warrior in check, but without that I don't think a simple -1 on armor will be enough.
but you did take the time to scroll all the way down to express your lack of effort. Seems pointless tbh.
you seem one of those righteous people who think they can talk shit and people should take a moment and listen, I came to your thread with good intentions but you lost me with ur but your blind arrogance that you are "blindly calling people morons" is just laughable.
The cards DO limit design space as each new card has to be tested in both (as per your example of Voone), but that doesnt mean they are BAD cards that should not be printed, it is totally different argument. I like the cards they in theory introduced 18 new archetypes even if some dont make sense (Bakkuu Shaman? Genn Warrior? both pointless), but that doesnt mean they are not problem cards which will forever remain in the collection.
I have heard people asking for hero powers to cost 3 instead of 2 (hence Gen becomes 2 instead of 1), but that is just silly as HP are already over-costed but balanced.
How to own a lot of whiners with 1 sentence. And there's no way to "nerf" them, besides stats
I agree they can not be nerfed, because it doesnt make sense to fix some of the upgraded HP and not touch everything. But stats nerf mean nothing, yes you draw "patches/bakuu" every now and then but you already had an oppresive early game.
I honestly don't think they are bad decks to play against when they are in aggressive decks as Odd Paladin can easily be controlled, Odd Rogue is a slightly bigger problem because of flappy bird and the thug not because of Bakuu. The problem I believe is in control decks like noway to play around armor or stupid frost lich jaina.
I think there should be a neutral card that halves your opponent armor, its doable and rounding up isnt a problem as in the solo adventures there is aleady a boss who halves your health and rounds up. As for Jaina, I think she should only let water elemental to heal not all elementals, this way you have to be have more "brains" to make water elementals just like finding a good defile.
Any time hero powers are really good, players use them a lot. Regular Warlock. Odd Paladin. Odd Warrior. Odd Rogue. Most DKs. That's not bad per se, but it does mean that an effect you always have from the beginning of every game is a big part of many turns.
It's clearly not just Genn and Baku. Warlock has been doing Life Tap on turns 2 and 3 into Mountain Giant or Twilight Drake since day effing one. It's not bad. It's just kinda boring.
Genn and Baku? The biggest problem is that they were in Witchwood and not Rastakhan's Rumble, so they'll be around for a full 2 year cycle instead of like 16 months. They did cool things. I'm glad they've existed in Hearthstone. I'm almost ready to see them move on. I'm not sure what the next rotation will bring. A lot of staple cards are going away, so there hopefully will be some revitalization.
2) "they warp the meta and make every deck feel the same"
this one's just plain stupid. Baku/Genn have probably brought more variety to the game than any build around card before. We have cards like Raid Leader and Nightblade in actual meta decks. JUST THINK ABOUT THAT.
Instead of just building our decks out of whatever cards have bigger bullshit numbers slapped onto them we actually consider using subpar filler cards in order to get the benefit of upgraded hero powers.
At the same time, pretty much all the deck variations are different. Some even have multiple versions. Odd MAge can choose an aggressive as well as a control playstyle. Even Paladin is probably the purest midrange deck we've ever had, while Odd Paladin is just straight up aggro beat down. Then there'S all the variants that don'T actually see play like Even Rogue (which could actually be good in the future) or Odd Druid. All these possibilities give you an incentive to be creative with the limited cards that are available to you.
NOw here's the thing that really irritates me about all this: For effectively years the community has been demanding new mechanics and more incentive to actually build different decks for different playstyles instead of just Frankensteining the biggest numbers into the rushdown deck of the season. The very moment Blizzard implements cards like these you throw a hissy fit because what, the decks actually work and have a place in the meta? I'm sorry would you rather we go back to Prince Valanar and his one expansion of glory until they actually printed good 4-drops for Rogue and Warlock?
When has "being a deck in the meta" become a reason for nerfs? I mean, I don't like Odd Paladin either, but there's a whole lot of reasons why that deck is bullshit and it's not purely because of the Hero POwer. Moreover, Baku/Genn decks don't even dominate the meta at all. Hunter does that now and before that it was Druid...neither of which used Baku/Genn. Hell, the only reason why Paladin is even up there is because of the amount of nutty cards they've had shoved up their asses since Un'Goro. Baku/Genn just neatly tied 'em together into a slamming package. I mean does nobody remember Murloc Paladin and Aggro Paladin violating the meta?
This is the only one I do take umbrage with.
The issue with the mechanic is not that there aren't a variety of versions of each deck - the same is true of Wild's Big Priest and Spell Hunter, or heck, any Reno Deck - the issue is that by upgrading the hero power (one way or the other) at the start increases consistency to such a degree that it renders the the gameplay experiencially identical, despite huge variety in deck. Yes, versions of Odd Pally run Nightblade, and that's cool, but the inclusion or exclusion of that card does not change the experience of being swarmed on the board very early on.
And increased consistency is not in and of itself an issue - it means that competitively minded players can more reasonably weed out which cards are failing them in what matchups and make meta adjustments more readily without changing from their favorite deck. The flip side of that, however, is that individuals who aren't competitively minded and just want to goof around with weird decks in casual mode quickly get bored of facing off against the same experience, since 'casual mode' is really just Legend practice mode. It isn't that the cards were built with competitively minded individuals in mind, but that they have become so ubiquitous and have a consistent stranglehold of the meta since their release that the more casually minded players are getting frustrated facing the same decks over and over again.
Edit: and I would like to emphasize. I don't *mind* deck warping cards being powerful, what I mind is deckwarping cards that increase consistency and are competitively minded. Shudderwock and Reno Jackson are powerful cards that are competitive and deck warping, but do not increase deck consistency. Zilliax is powerful card that increases consistency and is competitively minded, but is not deck warping. Anyfin Can Happen is powerful, deckwarping and consistent card, but is not competitively minded.
Without Genn and Baku ... I want to say the Year of the Raven wouldn't have any new decks (aside from some OTK/memes).
I recall Blizz being terrified by the potential of the Even/Odd only cards OTHER THAN GENN/BAKU before Witchwood's release, but only the shaman eel got some play.
One good side is G&B will keep someone ready to review Wild stats for absurd OP decks.
/the HS community shot itself in the foot by griping to Blizz that DK Rexxar should access beasts from newer expansions. No cave hydra, no Raven-era rush and poisonous beasts, a lot less BS superbeasts, a lot less wins for Rexxars, who have become the bane of the current ladder.
Armor up is the worst hero power in the game. Tank up suddenly shall be broken op? 5 armor is worth 1 mana and 1 card, Iron Hide. 2 1/1 tokens are worth 1 mana and 1 card. Seems perfectly balanced to me. Warrior has the worst basic hero power in the game. It does not bekome broken if it creates 2 more armor.
Armor up is the worst hero power in the game. Tank up suddenly shall be broken op? 5 armor is worth 1 mana and 1 card, Iron Hide. 2 1/1 tokens are worth 1 mana and 1 card. Seems perfectly balanced to me. Warrior has the worst basic hero power in the game. It does not bekome broken if it creates 2 more armor.
it literally becomes broken when you win games purely based on the fact that enemies are not able to kill you before they die of fatigue. Also, Shaman has the worst hero power in the game.
2) "they warp the meta and make every deck feel the same"
this one's just plain stupid. Baku/Genn have probably brought more variety to the game than any build around card before. We have cards like Raid Leader and Nightblade in actual meta decks. JUST THINK ABOUT THAT.
Instead of just building our decks out of whatever cards have bigger bullshit numbers slapped onto them we actually consider using subpar filler cards in order to get the benefit of upgraded hero powers.
At the same time, pretty much all the deck variations are different. Some even have multiple versions. Odd MAge can choose an aggressive as well as a control playstyle. Even Paladin is probably the purest midrange deck we've ever had, while Odd Paladin is just straight up aggro beat down. Then there'S all the variants that don'T actually see play like Even Rogue (which could actually be good in the future) or Odd Druid. All these possibilities give you an incentive to be creative with the limited cards that are available to you.
NOw here's the thing that really irritates me about all this: For effectively years the community has been demanding new mechanics and more incentive to actually build different decks for different playstyles instead of just Frankensteining the biggest numbers into the rushdown deck of the season. The very moment Blizzard implements cards like these you throw a hissy fit because what, the decks actually work and have a place in the meta? I'm sorry would you rather we go back to Prince Valanar and his one expansion of glory until they actually printed good 4-drops for Rogue and Warlock?
When has "being a deck in the meta" become a reason for nerfs? I mean, I don't like Odd Paladin either, but there's a whole lot of reasons why that deck is bullshit and it's not purely because of the Hero POwer. Moreover, Baku/Genn decks don't even dominate the meta at all. Hunter does that now and before that it was Druid...neither of which used Baku/Genn. Hell, the only reason why Paladin is even up there is because of the amount of nutty cards they've had shoved up their asses since Un'Goro. Baku/Genn just neatly tied 'em together into a slamming package. I mean does nobody remember Murloc Paladin and Aggro Paladin violating the meta?
This is the only one I do take umbrage with.
The issue with the mechanic is not that there aren't a variety of versions of each deck - the same is true of Wild's Big Priest and Spell Hunter, or heck, any Reno Deck - the issue is that by upgrading the hero power (one way or the other) at the start increases consistency to such a degree that it renders the the gameplay experiencially identical, despite huge variety in deck. Yes, versions of Odd Pally run Nightblade, and that's cool, but the inclusion or exclusion of that card does not change the experience of being swarmed on the board very early on.
And increased consistency is not in and of itself an issue - it means that competitively minded players can more reasonably weed out which cards are failing them in what matchups and make meta adjustments more readily without changing from their favorite deck. The flip side of that, however, is that individuals who aren't competitively minded and just want to goof around with weird decks in casual mode quickly get bored of facing off against the same experience, since 'casual mode' is really just Legend practice mode. It isn't that the cards were built with competitively minded individuals in mind, but that they have become so ubiquitous and have a consistent stranglehold of the meta since their release that the more casually minded players are getting frustrated facing the same decks over and over again.
Edit: and I would like to emphasize. I don't *mind* deck warping cards being powerful, what I mind is deckwarping cards that increase consistency and are competitively minded. Shudderwock and Reno Jackson are powerful cards that are competitive and deck warping, but do not increase deck consistency. Zilliax is powerful card that increases consistency and is competitively minded, but is not deck warping. Anyfin Can Happen is powerful, deckwarping and consistent card, but is not competitively minded.
but that's happening with every refined meta deck. It's just that Genn/baku usually end up following the same gameplan for the first 3 turns, but that's what every other deck will try to do as well. It's just that Genn/Baku do it more consistently but with overall less snowballing.
A turn 1 Recruit into a turn 2 Argent Protector isn't much different than a turn 1 Dire Mole into a turn 2 Crackling Razormaw. It's just that the second one depends much more on mulligan than the first.
At the same time, that's also an intended weakness for Genn/BAku. You know what's going to happen turn 1 and 2 so you can use it to your advantage. You don't need to worry what ODd Rogue will play on turn 2. They're always going to dagger up, so you can use that infromation to plan around it. If the dagger at 2 they'll most likely Clan Thug at 3 meaning i can seet up something to deal with the thug. Meanwhile in a non-Odd deck you're basically hoping they don't have Keleseth on 2. Such interaction, much wow.
The reason why ODd/Even decks feel stale is because we're used to games being dependant on lucky mulligan. Genn/baku aren't making the game stale, they're making it more fair by virtue of being more predictable and less dependant on sheer luck, which is both an advantage and a downside, and at the end of the day not really their fault, since their long term consistency is based on the powerlevel of the cards they have access too, which is just too high at the moment.
Yeah, I have to admit that might have been my weakest point. I was mostly seeing the positive implications of devs being challenged and not being able to just dodge problematic cards by just retroactively fixing them instead. Maybe I'm putting too much faith into their ability. It's just that for the last months I have been very positively surprised about the progress of the game in general. Pretty much the entire year of the Raven and all nerfs up to this point have shown that the dev team has actually learned from their mistakes.
Also, if it helps you, I'm not really a fan of Genn/baku decks for the most part either. At least not those who are defined just through having their best cards in the respective mana slot (aka Odd Rogue, Even Paladin and Even Warlock). I still believe that the rotation will leave those particular decks in the dust and going Odd/even will end up as its own deckbuilding challnege instead of an amalgamation of overstatted minions and spells.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
It’s true that highroll mechanics aren’t fun either, there is a middle ground. Sure, losing a game to a barnes sucks, but so does playing the same game against the same deck each time.
my guess is that this problem will somewhat fix itself after the rotation, mainly because the decklists will have to change their gameplan so much that they will become less consistent by default (for example, without Lost in the Jungle and Righteous Protector Odd Paladin will have a much harder time getting on the board early or refilling quickly).
On another note, you might be in a for a bad surprise. In Rumble Run, there have been a lot of exclusive minions with the text Start of the game: Draw this which kinda makes me think it's going to be an upcoming mechanic aimed at classes who rely a lot on having a one drop (imagine how much better Midrange Hunter would be if they had a legendary 1-mana 2/2 Beast that they drew at the start of the game. Or a 1/3 Elemental with the same function for Shaman). guess we'll see
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
Thats the problem. I experimented a lot with vanilla control builds, trying to make Geosculptor Yip work and... Non-odd Warrior really isnt hard to kill. Yes, while there are a lot of great even-costed removals like Execute, Warpath or Blood Razor, actual armor gain cards are kinda meh. Drywhisker Armorer, Weapons Project, Unidentified Shield - these are all decent at best. Meanwhile, some great odd cards, like Supercollider or Reckless Flurry cant really be used without reliable armor source (e.g. Tank Up!) So you basically lose nothing in terms of removal, choosing baku, and you gain a lot of survivability.
As for Brawl, i feel strongly against nerfing it. Its random, never full clear and sometimes too slow already, so it would be wrong card to target. 6 is too slow, 4 is too strong. 5 is just fine.
So, the only good solution is 3 armor Tank Up! . After all, there is a reason why Ballista Shot is 3 dmg and not 4, that would only be logical to do the same for opposite HP.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
No, my argument is that it is stupid crap that fucks up the game. You can spout about balance and the meta until you turn blue (and I'm sure you will), but it doesn't change the fact that we could have new mechanics and new cards instead of the devs diverting precious time to making everything fit into stupid even odd. It's not like it makes the game more entertaining - even if it is balanced it's just boring and pointless.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
at this point you're not really making any arguments. You're just angry about Even/Odd decks for no other reason that they are effective and you don't like it.
Not every card will be designe to sepcifically fit into and Even/Odd deck. You wouldn't build Odd Deathrattle Rogue with Necrium Blade and Necrium Vial, despite both of those cards being very playable and odd.
If you just want to vent about how much you hate the archetype for no particular reason go to the salt thread. Entertainment is subjective and unless you have some actual arguments I don't know what you're still doing here.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
the thing about nerfing just Tank UP is that itonly really delays the inevitable. At the end of the day, 3 armor a turn is still more than enough to outgrind most aggressive decks, because as long as you have the ability to wipe any board with brawl as well as eliminate any singular threat there'S no way for minion based decks to beat you any way other than luck.
My philosophy is that decks should have clear strengths and weaknesses. Druid used to have that when they didn't have good single target removal or board clears. Then they added stuff like Spreading Plague and Spellstone and ssuddenly going tall or wide was no longer an option.
I think Odd Warrior should follow these rules in such a way that decks that go wide quickly can snowball them down before they get to shore up their defenses (+ there are always neutral AoEs like BAron Geddon)
Honestly, I'm gonna have to wait for the next expansion and what counters they might bring. If there's a control deck that can utilize Mecha'thun as an alternate win condition t might be enough to keep odd warrior in check, but without that I don't think a simple -1 on armor will be enough.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
How to own a lot of whiners with 1 sentence. And there's no way to "nerf" them, besides stats
you seem one of those righteous people who think they can talk shit and people should take a moment and listen, I came to your thread with good intentions but you lost me with ur but your blind arrogance that you are "blindly calling people morons" is just laughable.
The cards DO limit design space as each new card has to be tested in both (as per your example of Voone), but that doesnt mean they are BAD cards that should not be printed, it is totally different argument. I like the cards they in theory introduced 18 new archetypes even if some dont make sense (Bakkuu Shaman? Genn Warrior? both pointless), but that doesnt mean they are not problem cards which will forever remain in the collection.
I have heard people asking for hero powers to cost 3 instead of 2 (hence Gen becomes 2 instead of 1), but that is just silly as HP are already over-costed but balanced.
I agree they can not be nerfed, because it doesnt make sense to fix some of the upgraded HP and not touch everything. But stats nerf mean nothing, yes you draw "patches/bakuu" every now and then but you already had an oppresive early game.
I honestly don't think they are bad decks to play against when they are in aggressive decks as Odd Paladin can easily be controlled, Odd Rogue is a slightly bigger problem because of flappy bird and the thug not because of Bakuu. The problem I believe is in control decks like noway to play around armor or stupid frost lich jaina.
I think there should be a neutral card that halves your opponent armor, its doable and rounding up isnt a problem as in the solo adventures there is aleady a boss who halves your health and rounds up. As for Jaina, I think she should only let water elemental to heal not all elementals, this way you have to be have more "brains" to make water elementals just like finding a good defile.
Nice signature. ^^
Always expect the unexpectable!
It is a simple non-statement like: "Water isn't good for you per se. You can drown in water!"
And everyone who really thinks that these two cards can't be nerfed has a massive lack of imagination.
Taz Dingo!
Any time hero powers are really good, players use them a lot. Regular Warlock. Odd Paladin. Odd Warrior. Odd Rogue. Most DKs. That's not bad per se, but it does mean that an effect you always have from the beginning of every game is a big part of many turns.
It's clearly not just Genn and Baku. Warlock has been doing Life Tap on turns 2 and 3 into Mountain Giant or Twilight Drake since day effing one. It's not bad. It's just kinda boring.
Genn and Baku? The biggest problem is that they were in Witchwood and not Rastakhan's Rumble, so they'll be around for a full 2 year cycle instead of like 16 months. They did cool things. I'm glad they've existed in Hearthstone. I'm almost ready to see them move on. I'm not sure what the next rotation will bring. A lot of staple cards are going away, so there hopefully will be some revitalization.
This is the only one I do take umbrage with.
The issue with the mechanic is not that there aren't a variety of versions of each deck - the same is true of Wild's Big Priest and Spell Hunter, or heck, any Reno Deck - the issue is that by upgrading the hero power (one way or the other) at the start increases consistency to such a degree that it renders the the gameplay experiencially identical, despite huge variety in deck. Yes, versions of Odd Pally run Nightblade, and that's cool, but the inclusion or exclusion of that card does not change the experience of being swarmed on the board very early on.
And increased consistency is not in and of itself an issue - it means that competitively minded players can more reasonably weed out which cards are failing them in what matchups and make meta adjustments more readily without changing from their favorite deck. The flip side of that, however, is that individuals who aren't competitively minded and just want to goof around with weird decks in casual mode quickly get bored of facing off against the same experience, since 'casual mode' is really just Legend practice mode. It isn't that the cards were built with competitively minded individuals in mind, but that they have become so ubiquitous and have a consistent stranglehold of the meta since their release that the more casually minded players are getting frustrated facing the same decks over and over again.
Edit: and I would like to emphasize. I don't *mind* deck warping cards being powerful, what I mind is deckwarping cards that increase consistency and are competitively minded. Shudderwock and Reno Jackson are powerful cards that are competitive and deck warping, but do not increase deck consistency. Zilliax is powerful card that increases consistency and is competitively minded, but is not deck warping. Anyfin Can Happen is powerful, deckwarping and consistent card, but is not competitively minded.
"YourPrivateNig..."
Without Genn and Baku ... I want to say the Year of the Raven wouldn't have any new decks (aside from some OTK/memes).
I recall Blizz being terrified by the potential of the Even/Odd only cards OTHER THAN GENN/BAKU before Witchwood's release, but only the shaman eel got some play.
One good side is G&B will keep someone ready to review Wild stats for absurd OP decks.
/the HS community shot itself in the foot by griping to Blizz that DK Rexxar should access beasts from newer expansions. No cave hydra, no Raven-era rush and poisonous beasts, a lot less BS superbeasts, a lot less wins for Rexxars, who have become the bane of the current ladder.
Armor up is the worst hero power in the game. Tank up suddenly shall be broken op? 5 armor is worth 1 mana and 1 card, Iron Hide. 2 1/1 tokens are worth 1 mana and 1 card. Seems perfectly balanced to me. Warrior has the worst basic hero power in the game. It does not bekome broken if it creates 2 more armor.
it literally becomes broken when you win games purely based on the fact that enemies are not able to kill you before they die of fatigue. Also, Shaman has the worst hero power in the game.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
but that's happening with every refined meta deck. It's just that Genn/baku usually end up following the same gameplan for the first 3 turns, but that's what every other deck will try to do as well. It's just that Genn/Baku do it more consistently but with overall less snowballing.
A turn 1 Recruit into a turn 2 Argent Protector isn't much different than a turn 1 Dire Mole into a turn 2 Crackling Razormaw. It's just that the second one depends much more on mulligan than the first.
At the same time, that's also an intended weakness for Genn/BAku. You know what's going to happen turn 1 and 2 so you can use it to your advantage. You don't need to worry what ODd Rogue will play on turn 2. They're always going to dagger up, so you can use that infromation to plan around it. If the dagger at 2 they'll most likely Clan Thug at 3 meaning i can seet up something to deal with the thug. Meanwhile in a non-Odd deck you're basically hoping they don't have Keleseth on 2. Such interaction, much wow.
The reason why ODd/Even decks feel stale is because we're used to games being dependant on lucky mulligan. Genn/baku aren't making the game stale, they're making it more fair by virtue of being more predictable and less dependant on sheer luck, which is both an advantage and a downside, and at the end of the day not really their fault, since their long term consistency is based on the powerlevel of the cards they have access too, which is just too high at the moment.
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
MRS. OBAMA GET DOWN
I tried having fun once. It was awful.