Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
There are legitimate criticisms of this season to be sure. But the one that I will never understand (and I believe is idiotic) is the one about there being too much focus on dragons and ice zombies.
WHERE THE FUCK DID YOU THINK THIS WAS GOING TO END?
Dragons and Zombies have always been the end game. The entire show opened with zombies. If you want to spend 8 more seasons in Dorne playing politics, I guess that's your thing. But this is always how the series/books were/are going to end.
Ramsay was doomed to die, no matter how smart he was, a ruler can not rely only on fear, he even managed to frighten Myranda (probably the only person who always loved him for who he was) when she showed jealousy about his marriage with Sansa ... At some point he would have been betrayed and if it was not for the audience who wanted to revenge for Sansa's rape, his death would have been way more complex and way more original than"lost a battle > get caught > die LUL"
That, I wasn't criticizing. I knew his days were numbered. My criticism was towards Baelish's death. Ramsay's wasn't too complex, but it made sense, and followed rules and consequences estabilished previously by the character.
Cersei was able to do ANYTHING to protect her children, but killing her brother(s) -she also failed to order the Mountain to kill Jaimie- is something way above her power, if she was really pregnant she would have given the order right away, but without the "protective mother hormones" she either can't resolve to kill her own family OR she is able to think and be less impulsive.
She do not want to kill him because it would annoy Dany who just showed up with two dragons and an army big enough to destroy her and King's Landing, why would she take the risk to suffer her wrath when she could manipulate him to lead her enemies away from her and lead them to a most certain death ?
I knew she wouldn't kill Jaime. If there was anyone she wouldn't kill it was him. But Cersei is very, very reckless. 90% of her choices are rash decisions that end up backfiring in some way. I can see her not planning to kill Tyrion once he walked into her chambers because of Dany, but I still think his taunts were a bit too easily forgiven, giving the person he was talking to.
The actress is doing a tremendous job on this scene, you can see her wanting to butcher this little motherfucker so much, but you see that she has a plan and she needs Tyrion to believe her lies.
The fact that there are way less characters in the show than the book makes so that Mary sues will end by showing up, it is a story after all, it would not be worth to be told if things didn't fit, you can't kill all the characters if you don't add new ones to replace them, and you can't add new characters again and again because the audience would not have the time to like them enough to care about them dying.
At the end of the day, except Jon and Briene, every character is a Villain somehow, everyone has something nasty in mind they want to achieve, even Dany burned a whole bunch Dothraki (who were still her people) when she could just run away and a father and son just because she wants to be queen, and since we now have the utlimate super villain in the Night King, there's no space for someone else until he is out of the picture
I can't say I agree with how mandatory you make Mary Sues seem. I get it entirely that they cannot add any characters now, since they won't have time to earn any love from the fans. Still, the series' gimmick always was that whole "how will the story go on without this super important character?". Dany without her Hand would have struggled, perhaps more than without 1 of her dragons. And I do like Tyrion as much as the next man.
I'd also go as far as saying Mary Sues aren't mandatorily good. They are just grasping perfection. Rebecca de Winter was a villain and a Mary Sue, even if a well-executed one. I wouldn't say they are moving that much in the moral compass, they are just changing as characters.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health. - Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
disappointed upon seeing lord baelish die, an unfair end to a great charachter.
btw who besides sir Gregor is loyal to Circe? If I was Jamie (dismissing the option of becoming KINslayer) I would have taken the whole army with me, they are more likely to follow their commander than their queen. Let Circe have fun with her golden mercenaries, see how many elephants those tiny ships can really carry
I really enjoyed the finale. Baelish finally gets his comeuppance (in a way that resolves Arya's shit characterisation the last few episodes) and we see a legitimate reason that the seeming insanity of waiting around and not killing the Suicide Squad last episode was helpful for the Night King - he wanted a Dragon to get past the Wall.
Am I disappointed that there weren't more impactful deaths? Somewhat. On the one hand, I think there were definite moments that could have been resolved with the death of a character, that were instead resolved with (often fake) diplomacy. On the other hand, I'm holding out hope that this is all just a ruse to keep the casual fans hyped for the next season, where they then kill off fan favourites left right and center.
I mean, imagine how many people they might lose if they kill Tyrion now, when they can instead wait until next season and have him die then instead? That's the only reasoning I can think of that we ended that episode with only one impactful death, and it was of the character who had the least purpose now - after all, political games are over now, which means Baelish is useless.
Damn, u didnt like The Lich King riding Sindragosa at the end? :D KFT was launched at this exact time for a reason (they could have made a different one)! illuminati confirmed!
I actually enjoyed season 7 it was much more action packed and shit is getting done. The main theme of the show "Winter is coming" was dragged on for so long. Therefore came the memes "Winter is coming. Eventually..." they had to do things faster they couldn't drag on show for another 20 seasons. Indeed the current season is pretty muched rushed but it's because previous ones were slowed down, they lost their balance.
And Peter's death was kinda enjoyable, never been a fan of him. He had too many fingers in too many pies. And the incest part was pretty funny since Targaryens built their family on their purity of blood. But there are too many coincedences happening. Lets put all the main chars in the same area so they could all have a staring contest. Sure why not?
I don't get it why you are mad about Zombies and Dragon. We all knew that this was gonna happen from season 1. You shouldn't have even started if you knew that you are not a fan of fantasy.
How can you say I'm not a fan of fantasy when I play a game like Hearthstone? Of course I like fantasy, but I don't like stupidity. ;)
It's not stupidity, they are going for what people want. If audience wanted a flying firebreathing zamboni we would get it. Early seasons had shock value to gain audience now they are forced to follow what audience want they've invested serious amount of money into this show, if they kill a major character like Tyrone they would lose a lot of viewers and they don't want that. It's better to lose a 1% of the viewship than 50%. You don't like Dragon and Zombies, a lot of people do. Personally i'd prefer if the show woud be a bit more political.
@moonsorrow999 Ugh, why do people get so upset about his cameo? I couldn't care less about Ed Sheran and yet i though that his bit was well done he had 3 lines to say and that's it. My God if he killed a man people would be less upset. And you probably don't even care about it because he stole a spotlight you care about it because it's popular. You darn hipster.
The thing is, for a very long time, GoT was that one TV show that didn't do whatever the masses wanted. If you were a genuine fan of a character, you shat your pants every episode in fear of it being their last. If you genuinely hated Joffrey or Littlefinger, you just knew they would still be around and fuck up everything for another season or two. And that's what made GoT special. It was not a show where your hero was fighting 10000 white walkers and you expected him to be back home unscathed because a dragon popped up in the sky. It was an actual genius political intrigue, where the smartest prevailed, rather than the ones we were rooting for. Now it's not, and that's why I find this the weakest season thus far.
The legit only reason I'll even watch season 8 is because I want to know what Cersei is up to with her Iron Bank troops, and how it will all go down.
The thing is, for a very long time, GoT was that one TV show that didn't do whatever the masses wanted. If you were a genuine fan of a character, you shat your pants every episode in fear of it being their last. If you genuinely hated Joffrey or Littlefinger, you just knew they would still be around and fuck up everything for another season or two. And that's what made GoT special. It was not a show where your hero was fighting 10000 white walkers and you expected him to be back home unscathed because a dragon popped up in the sky. It was an actual genius political intrigue, where the smartest prevailed, rather than the ones we were rooting for. Now it's not, and that's why I find this the weakest season thus far.
One particular scene that disappointed me was when Jaime performed his heroic but foolish charge towards a dragon, was shown sinking into a lake in heavy armor in a cliffhanger and the next episode he's safe on shore. This kind of action would have been punished in earlier seasons. It is the kind of cheap trick that TV is full of but GoT originally didn't use.
I do think it's good that they're bringing the story to its end even if that makes the progression feel rushed. The alternative would be to continue in the pace of the earlier seasons, but without the detailed source material that makes the story interesting at such a slow pace.
To come back to the first post, Petyr Baelish's death was actually fitting, in my opinion. He was playing a dangerous game and he got overconfident, thinking he could steer Sansa's reasoning towards the conclusion he wanted.
To come back to the first post, Petyr Baelish's death was actually fitting, in my opinion. He was playing a dangerous game and he got overconfident, thinking he could steer Sansa's reasoning towards the conclusion he wanted.
Agreed there, it was actually one of the few unexpected and well built moments we've had since like season 5. But it's not enough of a redeeming moment for an otherwise boring and stale season.
It was already over for me after what they did to Stannis. The Sand Snakes were the real ''jump the shark'' moment though. My God...
I mean sure, it's a TV adaptation, they are going to change some things. But this isn't even remotely faithful to the source material anymore. Worse, it is significantly inferior to the source material. We are in 'Hercules: Legendary Journeys' territory here. Actually, I'd rather watch that, it isn't such a soul-crushingly depressing display of failed potential.
Come on Martin, hurry up with the goddamn book. I need to wash the bad taste out of my brain.
Eh, I got so much problems with this season... First of all, Littlefinger is portrayed like a freaking imbecile, compared to the books. And so is Varys. Cmon, those two were most cunning and intelligent characters in the books, TV reduced them to shit.
Tyrion was boring AF for the entire season. Dany-bend-the-fucking-knee, nuff said. Lord Snow, as usual, doing Lord Snowy things - snoozefest. What annoyed me the most though, is fucking Benjen ex-machina AGAIN!! Seriously, was there any other reason for this character to exist except for ex-machining?
Right now, show's only saving grace for me are the secondary characters: Bronn, Davos, Hound, Beric, Tormund, etc. Main characters I don't give two shits about anymore, except Jaime, who I think is the best developed main character over entire series.
I really enjoyed the finale. Baelish finally gets his comeuppance (in a way that resolves Arya's shit characterisation the last few episodes) and we see a legitimate reason that the seeming insanity of waiting around and not killing the Suicide Squad last episode was helpful for the Night King - he wanted a Dragon to get past the Wall.
Well, it still doesn't make much sense. How in the hell would he know that dragons actually exist "now", let alone coming to the rescue?
I'm pretty sure I've seen someone every single season say how they're going to quit the show. Everything from when Ned gets beheaded to The Red Wedding to when Jon is betrayed by the Night's Watch. Every single time, someone has thrown their hands up in the air and said, "F**k it, I'm done with this show" and yet here we are, the show's popularity and ratings now stronger than ever.
Admittedly, I do feel that the writing in this was weaker this season than previous ones and things were definitely rushed. We have characters magically transporting throughout the world to the places the plot needs them. Throughout these 7 episodes, they must have mentioned how Dany can't have any more children about a dozen times. The Jon/Dany relationship doesn't feel as natural as it should with what we've come to expect from character development. The foreshadowing is not subtle in the slightest and this season was far more predictable than any previous season has been. And I agree, I think Littlefinger's death could have (should have) been better handled. Yes, season 7 could have been better.
That being said, I personally don't think it was a bad season either. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was quite visually stunning. The action was top notch and I can overlook certain plot holes, such as characters jumping to Warp 9 to get to where they need to be because I understand that with only 7 episodes to work with, they need to spend their screentime wisely and simply spending half a season watching people travel by boat would not have made this season any better.
In the end, love it or hate it, the show is still going strong and it will continue to be strong through the final season. If you are no longer enjoying the show, that's on you. But people saying that the show has 'crashed and burned' because they personally didn't like how this season was handled, that's just silly. The show's success has already exceeded the point of being capable of crashing and burning. The final season could be a complete dog turd and it'd still go down in history as one of the most successful television shows of all time (kind of like Lost and it's final season). Though I doubt it will be that bad. In fact, I'm fairly confident that I personally will very much enjoy the final season as I'm sure countless other fans of the show will. But we'll just have to wait and see.
To come back to the first post, Petyr Baelish's death was actually fitting, in my opinion. He was playing a dangerous game and he got overconfident, thinking he could steer Sansa's reasoning towards the conclusion he wanted.
Agreed there, it was actually one of the few unexpected and well built moments we've had since like season 5. But it's not enough of a redeeming moment for an otherwise boring and stale season.
Are you serious guys? Did you watch the same scene as me? Petyr Baelish, the most cunning man in Westeros, acted like a complete idiot there and is one of the main reasons why I'm so mad. He admitted for no reason in front of the knights of the Vale to have killed Lysa Arryn, sentencing himself to die. How the f...k that makes any kind of sense for someone like Littlefinger? One of the stupidiest moments in the entire TV show. I will never forget the directors for such a dumb decision.
after all, political games are over now, which means Baelish is useless.
And who cares if he is useless? Why a character has to die because of that? That is not how things work in real life, neither did in Game of Thrones in previous seasons. There was no real reason to kill him, he could simply return to the Vale and stay there till the end of the series. Why all villains have to die? It doesn't make any sense, this is not a Disney cartoon.
To come back to the first post, Petyr Baelish's death was actually fitting, in my opinion. He was playing a dangerous game and he got overconfident, thinking he could steer Sansa's reasoning towards the conclusion he wanted.
Agreed there, it was actually one of the few unexpected and well built moments we've had since like season 5. But it's not enough of a redeeming moment for an otherwise boring and stale season.
Are you serious guys? Did you watch the same scene as me? Petyr Baelish, the most cunning man in Westeros, acted like a complete idiot there and is one of the reason why I'm so mad. He admitted for no reason in front of the knights of the Vale to have killed Lysa Arryn, sentencing himself to die. How the f...k that makes any kind of sense for someone like Littlefinger? One of the stupidiest moments in the entire TV show. I will never forget the directors for such a dumb decision.
The books are the TRUE story, and we shall see what happens to Littlefinger in the next book. I still was happy to see him die tho. He got caught with his pants down, and Sansa was right there when Peter killed Lysa Arryn, remember? How can he lie about that in front of her, and the Knights of the Vale? If he did try to lie, or answered anything other than a yes, she would had said: "I was there when you did it, Lord Baelish"
How can you be pissed Peter admitted killing Lysa, when he had no outs?
To come back to the first post, Petyr Baelish's death was actually fitting, in my opinion. He was playing a dangerous game and he got overconfident, thinking he could steer Sansa's reasoning towards the conclusion he wanted.
Agreed there, it was actually one of the few unexpected and well built moments we've had since like season 5. But it's not enough of a redeeming moment for an otherwise boring and stale season.
Are you serious guys? Did you watch the same scene as me? Petyr Baelish, the most cunning man in Westeros, acted like a complete idiot there and is one of the reason why I'm so mad. He admitted for no reason in front of the knights of the Vale to have killed Lysa Arryn, sentencing himself to die. How the f...k that makes any kind of sense for someone like Littlefinger? One of the stupidiest moments in the entire TV show. I will never forget the directors for such a dumb decision.
The books are the TRUE story, and we shall see what happens to Littlefinger in the next book. I still was happy to see him die tho. He got caught with his pants down, and Sansa was right there when Peter killed Lysa Arryn, remember? How can he lie about that in front of her, and the Knights of the Vale? If he did lie to everyone there, she would just say: "I was there when you did it, Lord Baelish"
How can you be pissed Peter admitted killing Lysa, when he had no outs?
What? And why the hell they will listen to Sansa without at least giving Littlefinger a chance to defend himself in a court? The knights of the Vale were under his command bro, please.
To come back to the first post, Petyr Baelish's death was actually fitting, in my opinion. He was playing a dangerous game and he got overconfident, thinking he could steer Sansa's reasoning towards the conclusion he wanted.
Agreed there, it was actually one of the few unexpected and well built moments we've had since like season 5. But it's not enough of a redeeming moment for an otherwise boring and stale season.
Are you serious guys? Did you watch the same scene as me? Petyr Baelish, the most cunning man in Westeros, acted like a complete idiot there and is one of the reason why I'm so mad. He admitted for no reason in front of the knights of the Vale to have killed Lysa Arryn, sentencing himself to die. How the f...k that makes any kind of sense for someone like Littlefinger? One of the stupidiest moments in the entire TV show. I will never forget the directors for such a dumb decision.
The books are the TRUE story, and we shall see what happens to Littlefinger in the next book. I still was happy to see him die tho. He got caught with his pants down, and Sansa was right there when Peter killed Lysa Arryn, remember? How can he lie about that in front of her, and the Knights of the Vale? If he did lie to everyone there, she would just say: "I was there when you did it, Lord Baelish"
How can you be pissed Peter admitted killing Lysa, when he had no outs?
What? And why the hell they will listen to Sansa without at least giving Littlefinger a chance to defend himself in a court? The knights of the Vale were under his command bro, please.
Hmm that's not how it works in Winterfell. That meeting was "court", and his back was up against the wall. Also, the Knights never liked Littlefinger to begin with lol
Even if the Knights of the Vale "allowed" Littlefinger to defend himself, you think it would had made any difference?
To come back to the first post, Petyr Baelish's death was actually fitting, in my opinion. He was playing a dangerous game and he got overconfident, thinking he could steer Sansa's reasoning towards the conclusion he wanted.
Agreed there, it was actually one of the few unexpected and well built moments we've had since like season 5. But it's not enough of a redeeming moment for an otherwise boring and stale season.
Are you serious guys? Did you watch the same scene as me? Petyr Baelish, the most cunning man in Westeros, acted like a complete idiot there and is one of the reason why I'm so mad. He admitted for no reason in front of the knights of the Vale to have killed Lysa Arryn, sentencing himself to die. How the f...k that makes any kind of sense for someone like Littlefinger? One of the stupidiest moments in the entire TV show. I will never forget the directors for such a dumb decision.
The books are the TRUE story, and we shall see what happens to Littlefinger in the next book. I still was happy to see him die tho. He got caught with his pants down, and Sansa was right there when Peter killed Lysa Arryn, remember? How can he lie about that in front of her, and the Knights of the Vale? If he did lie to everyone there, she would just say: "I was there when you did it, Lord Baelish"
How can you be pissed Peter admitted killing Lysa, when he had no outs?
What? And why the hell they will listen to Sansa without at least giving Littlefinger a chance to defend himself in a court? The knights of the Vale were under his command bro, please.
Hmm that's not how it works in Winterfell. That meeting was "court", and his back was up against the wall. Also, the Knights never liked Littlefinger to begin with lol
Even if the Knights of the Vale "allowed" Littlefinger to defend himself, you think it would had made any difference?
Didn't know that the most honorable place in the entire Westeros is ruled as a tyranny, where the ruler can say whatever shit he or she wants and kill anyone just for pleasure. Also, what makes you think all the knights didn't like Littlefinger? And fiinally, if it is true that Sansa has so much power, what the hell was he doing there? Was he retarded? Risking his life for what? Love? LOL.
lol this show
Look, I want to tell you something because you're very dear to me. And I hope you understand that it comes from the bottom of my damaged, damaged heart. You are the finest piece of ass I've ever had and I don't care who knows it. I am so glad that I got to roam those hillsides.
There are legitimate criticisms of this season to be sure. But the one that I will never understand (and I believe is idiotic) is the one about there being too much focus on dragons and ice zombies.
WHERE THE FUCK DID YOU THINK THIS WAS GOING TO END?
Dragons and Zombies have always been the end game. The entire show opened with zombies.
If you want to spend 8 more seasons in Dorne playing politics, I guess that's your thing. But this is always how the series/books were/are going to end.
Start of Year: Provoke the failure of 3 expansions, force nerfs on otherwise balanced cards, bring deckbuilding to an all-time low and get rotated one year earlier for being such a threat to the game's health.
- Genn and Baku's historical entry on the White Book of Shit Design, shortly before retiring unpunished
I agree on all counts
disappointed upon seeing lord baelish die, an unfair end to a great charachter.
btw who besides sir Gregor is loyal to Circe? If I was Jamie (dismissing the option of becoming KINslayer) I would have taken the whole army with me, they are more likely to follow their commander than their queen. Let Circe have fun with her golden mercenaries, see how many elephants those tiny ships can really carry
I really enjoyed the finale. Baelish finally gets his comeuppance (in a way that resolves Arya's shit characterisation the last few episodes) and we see a legitimate reason that the seeming insanity of waiting around and not killing the Suicide Squad last episode was helpful for the Night King - he wanted a Dragon to get past the Wall.
Am I disappointed that there weren't more impactful deaths? Somewhat. On the one hand, I think there were definite moments that could have been resolved with the death of a character, that were instead resolved with (often fake) diplomacy. On the other hand, I'm holding out hope that this is all just a ruse to keep the casual fans hyped for the next season, where they then kill off fan favourites left right and center.
I mean, imagine how many people they might lose if they kill Tyrion now, when they can instead wait until next season and have him die then instead? That's the only reasoning I can think of that we ended that episode with only one impactful death, and it was of the character who had the least purpose now - after all, political games are over now, which means Baelish is useless.
You can find me here! Good luck everyone!
Damn, u didnt like The Lich King riding Sindragosa at the end? :D KFT was launched at this exact time for a reason (they could have made a different one)! illuminati confirmed!
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My reaction to Littlefinger's death (I should have recorded it :P):
One particular scene that disappointed me was when Jaime performed his heroic but foolish charge towards a dragon, was shown sinking into a lake in heavy armor in a cliffhanger and the next episode he's safe on shore. This kind of action would have been punished in earlier seasons. It is the kind of cheap trick that TV is full of but GoT originally didn't use.
I do think it's good that they're bringing the story to its end even if that makes the progression feel rushed. The alternative would be to continue in the pace of the earlier seasons, but without the detailed source material that makes the story interesting at such a slow pace.
To come back to the first post, Petyr Baelish's death was actually fitting, in my opinion. He was playing a dangerous game and he got overconfident, thinking he could steer Sansa's reasoning towards the conclusion he wanted.
Show might have crashed, still the best thing to watch, that says alot
It was already over for me after what they did to Stannis. The Sand Snakes were the real ''jump the shark'' moment though. My God...
I mean sure, it's a TV adaptation, they are going to change some things. But this isn't even remotely faithful to the source material anymore. Worse, it is significantly inferior to the source material. We are in 'Hercules: Legendary Journeys' territory here. Actually, I'd rather watch that, it isn't such a soul-crushingly depressing display of failed potential.
Come on Martin, hurry up with the goddamn book. I need to wash the bad taste out of my brain.
Eh, I got so much problems with this season... First of all, Littlefinger is portrayed like a freaking imbecile, compared to the books. And so is Varys. Cmon, those two were most cunning and intelligent characters in the books, TV reduced them to shit.
Tyrion was boring AF for the entire season. Dany-bend-the-fucking-knee, nuff said. Lord Snow, as usual, doing Lord Snowy things - snoozefest. What annoyed me the most though, is fucking Benjen ex-machina AGAIN!! Seriously, was there any other reason for this character to exist except for ex-machining?
Right now, show's only saving grace for me are the secondary characters: Bronn, Davos, Hound, Beric, Tormund, etc. Main characters I don't give two shits about anymore, except Jaime, who I think is the best developed main character over entire series.
I'm pretty sure I've seen someone every single season say how they're going to quit the show. Everything from when Ned gets beheaded to The Red Wedding to when Jon is betrayed by the Night's Watch. Every single time, someone has thrown their hands up in the air and said, "F**k it, I'm done with this show" and yet here we are, the show's popularity and ratings now stronger than ever.
Admittedly, I do feel that the writing in this was weaker this season than previous ones and things were definitely rushed. We have characters magically transporting throughout the world to the places the plot needs them. Throughout these 7 episodes, they must have mentioned how Dany can't have any more children about a dozen times. The Jon/Dany relationship doesn't feel as natural as it should with what we've come to expect from character development. The foreshadowing is not subtle in the slightest and this season was far more predictable than any previous season has been. And I agree, I think Littlefinger's death could have (should have) been better handled. Yes, season 7 could have been better.
That being said, I personally don't think it was a bad season either. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was quite visually stunning. The action was top notch and I can overlook certain plot holes, such as characters jumping to Warp 9 to get to where they need to be because I understand that with only 7 episodes to work with, they need to spend their screentime wisely and simply spending half a season watching people travel by boat would not have made this season any better.
In the end, love it or hate it, the show is still going strong and it will continue to be strong through the final season. If you are no longer enjoying the show, that's on you. But people saying that the show has 'crashed and burned' because they personally didn't like how this season was handled, that's just silly. The show's success has already exceeded the point of being capable of crashing and burning. The final season could be a complete dog turd and it'd still go down in history as one of the most successful television shows of all time (kind of like Lost and it's final season). Though I doubt it will be that bad. In fact, I'm fairly confident that I personally will very much enjoy the final season as I'm sure countless other fans of the show will. But we'll just have to wait and see.