I just hit rank 5 and ran into a lot of secret Paladins along the way. With Trump's new Midrange token Paladin deck they were all auto wins for me. I don't understand why people are flipping out about this card. Is it good? Sure it is, but it is not unbeatable by a long shot and at least for me it was a free win with this one deck. I am sure Hunters running flare also tear them apart. So if you are having a hard time try either of those decks
No, not really. The card almost always has a huge impact when it is played and the early game for secadin tends to be extremely strong.
I have no idea if the deck/card is OP or not, but that particular post clearly tried to obfuscate both the strength of card and the strength of the deck it is usually played in.
You do not seem to have read the initial post at all. The whole point of the post was that the card offers great value in a secret themed deck and thus does indeed have a "huge impact" and nothing has been said to argue with that. The problem that has been described in the post is something completely different.
I was talking about the conceptual problem of having to run a multitude of weak 1 mana cost spells in order to make an otherwise mediocre card actually good and how a deck that is filled with those inefficient cards does not have the level of consistency or strenght that is needed to surivive in the current meta.
The critizism was not aimed at the Mysterious Challenger but rather the circumstances he needs to be played in and that is something people do not seem to understand. The context of a deck is an important factor in the evaluation of a cards strenght especially one that relies so heavily on synergy.
Thanks I know how to read, and I recognized an incorrect description. Secadin doesn't lack a powerful early game.
The entire post you touted as a "good description" is not very good. The deck is both powerful and consistent so the description you quoted does not fit. That is all
hit with any minion > noble sacrifice > dead> resurect noble > give +3/2 from avenge , it's easy to play around it as it seems to me, just think about eye on eye nver played/
Good card but I would not consider it OP yet. The deck is relatively new and people have yet to adapt to it. So give it some time before you grab your pitchforks and call "OP".
No, not really. The card almost always has a huge impact when it is played and the early game for secadin tends to be extremely strong.
I have no idea if the deck/card is OP or not, but that particular post clearly tried to obfuscate both the strength of card and the strength of the deck it is usually played in.
You do not seem to have read the initial post at all. The whole point of the post was that the card offers great value in a secret themed deck and thus does indeed have a "huge impact" and nothing has been said to argue with that. The problem that has been described in the post is something completely different.
I was talking about the conceptual problem of having to run a multitude of weak 1 mana cost spells in order to make an otherwise mediocre card actually good and how a deck that is filled with those inefficient cards does not have the level of consistency or strenght that is needed to surivive in the current meta.
The critizism was not aimed at the Mysterious Challenger but rather the circumstances he needs to be played in and that is something people do not seem to understand. The context of a deck is an important factor in the evaluation of a cards strenght especially one that relies so heavily on synergy.
What you don't understand is that the 1 mana cards give you 1 mana worth of value. You're not putting 1 mana cards that do nothing into your deck, even when drawn, you are paying 1 mana to get 1 mana worth of something on the board. So the fact that you are forced to play these cards is not reason enough to say Mysterious Challenger is not OP.
You may then ask "well if these cards are so good, why weren't they played before?". The answer is that, by themselves, they didn't provide enough value because you can only play so many 1 mana cards before you ran out of steam which is what mysterious challenger has changed.
If I filled my deck with shitty 1 mana cards but could have all of them in my hand at the start of the game so that I can use all my mana every turn and never run out of steam, then I would still beat decks that used more valuable cards simply due to the sheer volume of cards I'm playing. 6 shitty 1 mana cards being played on turn 6 probably provides more value and tempo than my opponent playing a single valuable 6 mana minion.
This is essentially what mysterious challenger has allowed a deck filled with these 1 mana secrets to do. You're playing this low curve deck with lots of 1 and 2 mana cards and around turn 5/6 you're running out of steam. Then you drop a mysterious challenger which basically drew you 5 cards and played 5x 1 mana cards all while putting a 6 mana 6/6 on the board. The tempo and card advantage from that 1 turn is insane enough to win you the game.
^ You could entirely be right, I just know it's a pain to clear a board when you have Avenge, Sacrifice and Redemption slowing down your clear.
Killing one thing (and the attacker that triggers the defender doesn't count xP) just trips avenge and boosts something, making the next harder to kill. And you don't want to start with the challenger in case they have redemption as well.
I guess it depends on what your board looked like beforehand, but especially in the newly popular token deck there's usually plenty of bodies to get the boost.
Valid, but wouldn't the chance of the Challenger (edit) being 9/8 worse than buffing a smaller minion, and dealing with a 6/1?
(Thinking out loud, kinda.)
Hmm good point.
So attack with a small minion to clear Noble Sacrifice, attack with a big minion to clear Mysterious Challenger, and attack with another small minion to clear the Redemption-ed Challenger.
Step 1: Have at least 3 creatures on the board or you're going to take 7+ damage next turn.
@ current direction of the topic:
I think he's an insanely high valued card 6 mana gets you a 6/6 (Boulderfist Ogre) and up to 5 mana in secrets so almost 11 mana in value.
Of course there is the opportunity cost of putting so many secrets in your deck... Once Challenger is played he sucks them out of your deck so that you are significantly more likely to draw a lategame card on turn 7+. I don't think that the opportunity cost is quite as high as people are making it out to be.
It'll be interesting to see if the deck improves of peters out as people get better at playing around the secrets, haha.
Its easy to play around... If you have board control if you are behind before turn 6 mysterious challenger ends the game right there adn with sticky minions its hard to stay ahead because of the enemys efficient trades the times i won vs mysterious challenger is when hes played by himself which is rarely the case
The counter is the opportunity cost of all those paladin secrets in your deck.
But, I think it's very cool you got to see 5 secrets dumped with him. That's like seeing a falling star. You should be happy.
^ This.
The opportunity cost is quite high in order to get like the max, or just a lot, value from Mysterious Challenger. Playing 5+ secrets means that the deck is sacrificing 5+ card slots for these 1 mana secrets.
And yet, seems like it works fine, even with that huge weakness...
What do we have for 6 mana?
A 6/6 mnion. Draw X cards from your deck, not random. it worth mentioning that it also filters your deck, making your draw better.And then the secrets are played for free. While I agree that one by one, the secrets aren't really strong, they are powerful when combinated.
Nevertheless, it seems perfectly fine for many players.
Well, I guess it requires a bit more thinking than playing Dr. Boom so sometimes it doesn't work very well. But still, the value of Mysterious Challenger is insane. That alone, in a game like Hearthstone, is OP.
Mysterious challenger may be a very strong card, however there are cards that are designed to beat secrets that could be teched in to beat secret decks like flare and mystic.
In a way, Mysterious Challenger buffs these cards to make them more viable, which I think is a positive thing.
Mystic is completely and utterly useless against challenger.
Not at all, decks that run mysterious challenger are bound to draw their secrets before they play the challenger. It happens almost every single game I am against a challenger deck. At least 1-3 secrets are played before he comes down. This is where kezan mystic becomes a viable option. When the opponent goes 3/4 drop into a 1 mana secret for example to fill out their curve, your mystic then gains significant value, and you have just swung the tempo in your favor, therefore making it a viable card. The times where a secret heavy paladin does not play a secret before 6 is very unlikely, so you cannot statistically factor that into your evaluation.
It is also worth noting that since hunter, mage, paladin and warrior are the top played classes (currently) it is likely that you will play a secret class with mystic above 60% of the time on average. Mystic was sometimes being run with only 2 legitimate secret classes, now there are 3, and mysterious challenger is debatably the most common class (in legend ranked where I am able to observe), mystic becomes more viable, and is therefore buffed.
To reinforce my previous statement, flare mid range hunter could be more common if this meta continues
The counter is the opportunity cost of all those paladin secrets in your deck.
But, I think it's very cool you got to see 5 secrets dumped with him. That's like seeing a falling star. You should be happy.
^ This.
The opportunity cost is quite high in order to get like the max, or just a lot, value from Mysterious Challenger. Playing 5+ secrets means that the deck is sacrificing 5+ card slots for these 1 mana secrets.
And yet, seems like it works fine, even with that huge weakness...
What do we have for 6 mana?
A 6/6 mnion. Draw X cards from your deck, not random. it worth mentioning that it also filters your deck, making your draw better.And then the secrets are played for free. While I agree that one by one, the secrets aren't really strong, they are powerful when combinated.
Nevertheless, it seems perfectly fine for many players.
Well, I guess it requires a bit more thinking than playing Dr. Boom so sometimes it doesn't work very well. But still, the value of Mysterious Challenger is insane. That alone, in a game like Hearthstone, is OP.
I have seem a purely mysterious challenger secret deck fizzle out many times due to drawing too many secrets. This is a huge weakness in the deck and if you understand you are playing against a Mysterious Challenger secret deck you can easily punish your opponent. Be aggressive if they are playing many secrets. Their cards have inherently less value (excluding mysterious). Establish a board pre turn-6. Force them to play sub optimally in order to survive, and then the challenger will be less of a problem.
This is what you do when facing it as a midrange/tempo deck. Aggro pushes aggressively as normal, and control has a good match up vs challenger due to aoe. Mysterious is an amazing card vs midrange/tempo decks because it is a powerful tempo card. Since tempo/midrange decks dominate the meta currently, the Mysterious challenger is more successful. Try switching up your deck choice, playstyle, or tech in counter cards in order to balance the match ups with your mid range/tempo decks.
Mysterious challenger may be a very strong card, however there are cards that are designed to beat secrets that could be teched in to beat secret decks like flare and mystic.
In a way, Mysterious Challenger buffs these cards to make them more viable, which I think is a positive thing.
Mystic is completely and utterly useless against challenger.
Not at all, decks that run mysterious challenger are bound to draw their secrets before they play the challenger. It happens almost every single game I am against a challenger deck. At least 1-3 secrets are played before he comes down. This is where kezan mystic becomes a viable option. When the opponent goes 3/4 drop into a 1 mana secret for example to fill out their curve, your mystic then gains significant value, and you have just swung the tempo in your favor, therefore making it a viable card. The times where a secret heavy paladin does not play a secret before 6 is very unlikely, so you cannot statistically factor that into your evaluation.
It is also worth noting that since hunter, mage, paladin and warrior are the top played classes (currently) it is likely that you will play a secret class with mystic above 60% of the time on average. Mystic was sometimes being run with only 2 legitimate secret classes, now there are 3, and mysterious challenger is debatably the most common class (in legend ranked where I am able to observe), mysterious challenger becomes more viable, and is therefore buffed.
To reinforce my previous statement, flare mid range hunter could be more common if this meta continues
Mystic is an ok tech but is useless vs paladin. It won't swing games in your favor as it does with mage or hunter because a single paladin secret by itself is completely useless to you especially when your opponent knows which one it is. Just think about what the secrets are and the types of minions the paladin plays and you will understand.
this card should read: PUT 2 SECRETS FROM YOUR DECK IN PLAY.
not all of them...
but secret pallys are boring as face hunters and all those decks..
people just plays what others are playing.. no creativity at all..
Imo, its actually a very creative deck. I love seeing new archtypes in the meta, and people call the deck cancer, however it is because there ahs not been a dramatic meta-shift to counter the deck, or optimized deck lists to handle its style of play.
It is true that the hard aggro secret keeper challenger decks are pretty cancer, but there have been many mid range variations that are extremely interesting, creative, unique, and fun to play.
The card is balanced in my opinion. Yet it is VERY strong. But so is ysera, boom, tirion, etc. Strong cards are ok if they have opportunity cost that Thefalsehuman and JazzFan27 noted earlier.
Mysterious challenger may be a very strong card, however there are cards that are designed to beat secrets that could be teched in to beat secret decks like flare and mystic.
In a way, Mysterious Challenger buffs these cards to make them more viable, which I think is a positive thing.
Mystic is completely and utterly useless against challenger.
Not at all, decks that run mysterious challenger are bound to draw their secrets before they play the challenger. It happens almost every single game I am against a challenger deck. At least 1-3 secrets are played before he comes down. This is where kezan mystic becomes a viable option. When the opponent goes 3/4 drop into a 1 mana secret for example to fill out their curve, your mystic then gains significant value, and you have just swung the tempo in your favor, therefore making it a viable card. The times where a secret heavy paladin does not play a secret before 6 is very unlikely, so you cannot statistically factor that into your evaluation.
It is also worth noting that since hunter, mage, paladin and warrior are the top played classes (currently) it is likely that you will play a secret class with mystic above 60% of the time on average. Mystic was sometimes being run with only 2 legitimate secret classes, now there are 3, and mysterious challenger is debatably the most common class (in legend ranked where I am able to observe), mysterious challenger becomes more viable, and is therefore buffed.
To reinforce my previous statement, flare mid range hunter could be more common if this meta continues
Mystic is an ok tech but is useless vs paladin. It won't swing games in your favor as it does with mage or hunter because a single paladin secret by itself is completely useless to you especially when your opponent knows which one it is. Just think about what the secrets are and the types of minions the paladin plays and you will understand.
I think I understand very well. It is true it is not amazing vs paladin I agree, playing kezan into 1 paladin secret takes the card from bad to average, but is by no means good. However, im stating that by adding another secret class into the meta, this cards whiffs a lot less, and statistically is better. It is by no means useless. If the meta is dominated by 3/4 secret classes instead of 2/4 it becomes more viable to run in your deck.
By no means was I arguing the card is suddenly amazing, just more viable in the current meta due to the introduction of the class. When I began these replies, I did not say Kezan was a counter, it is a useful card that is not bad or amazing. My point was primarily focused around kezan mystic being more applicable in the meta compared to the previous meta where secret paladin was non existent.
Imo, its actually a very creative deck. I love seeing new archtypes in the meta, and people call the deck cancer, however it is because there ahs not been a dramatic meta-shift to counter the deck, or optimized deck lists to handle its style of play.
It is true that the hard aggro secret keeper challenger decks are pretty cancer, but there have been many mid range variations that are extremely interesting, creative, unique, and fun to play.
The card is balanced in my opinion. Yet it is VERY strong. But so is ysera, boom, tirion, etc. Strong cards are ok if they have opportunity cost that Thefalsehuman and JazzFan27 noted earlier.
Creative deck ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!No wait you are serious?AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHA!
Secret pala=eboladin-chargers+secrets+secret challenger SUCH CREATIVITY,VERY SMART WOW
Sorry for the sarcasm mate i just stop playing for today cause i faced only this deck.And before you ask i won 7/13 games so is not about losing.The deck is bullshit.They lose or they win by the selves.They draw poorly?you auto win even you draw poorly also.They draw decently gg unless you draw all your answers.
Its true aggro secret is ebola haha but there are some lists which are a good mix. Im sorry to hear that though I recommend playing a list that counters that deck specifically and you probably will have a pretty good win percentage.
About Mysterious Challenger, I think it's s shame that it became the next hated card by all the Hearthstone bitches because I think it has the best Art in TGT (specially Golden) and I liked the idea that a card finally made Paladin secrets viable. Oh well, I'll just still play it in my mid-range Pally and ignore the QQing.
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I just hit rank 5 and ran into a lot of secret Paladins along the way. With Trump's new Midrange token Paladin deck they were all auto wins for me. I don't understand why people are flipping out about this card. Is it good? Sure it is, but it is not unbeatable by a long shot and at least for me it was a free win with this one deck. I am sure Hunters running flare also tear them apart. So if you are having a hard time try either of those decks
Thanks I know how to read, and I recognized an incorrect description. Secadin doesn't lack a powerful early game.
The entire post you touted as a "good description" is not very good. The deck is both powerful and consistent so the description you quoted does not fit. That is all
hit with any minion > noble sacrifice > dead> resurect noble > give +3/2 from avenge , it's easy to play around it as it seems to me, just think about eye on eye nver played/
i dont understand why they made it battlecry and not deathrattle, would be more balanced that way. For now - ridiculously op,
Good card but I would not consider it OP yet. The deck is relatively new and people have yet to adapt to it. So give it some time before you grab your pitchforks and call "OP".
What you don't understand is that the 1 mana cards give you 1 mana worth of value. You're not putting 1 mana cards that do nothing into your deck, even when drawn, you are paying 1 mana to get 1 mana worth of something on the board. So the fact that you are forced to play these cards is not reason enough to say Mysterious Challenger is not OP.
You may then ask "well if these cards are so good, why weren't they played before?". The answer is that, by themselves, they didn't provide enough value because you can only play so many 1 mana cards before you ran out of steam which is what mysterious challenger has changed.
If I filled my deck with shitty 1 mana cards but could have all of them in my hand at the start of the game so that I can use all my mana every turn and never run out of steam, then I would still beat decks that used more valuable cards simply due to the sheer volume of cards I'm playing. 6 shitty 1 mana cards being played on turn 6 probably provides more value and tempo than my opponent playing a single valuable 6 mana minion.
This is essentially what mysterious challenger has allowed a deck filled with these 1 mana secrets to do. You're playing this low curve deck with lots of 1 and 2 mana cards and around turn 5/6 you're running out of steam. Then you drop a mysterious challenger which basically drew you 5 cards and played 5x 1 mana cards all while putting a 6 mana 6/6 on the board. The tempo and card advantage from that 1 turn is insane enough to win you the game.
Hmm good point.
So attack with a small minion to clear Noble Sacrifice, attack with a big minion to clear Mysterious Challenger, and attack with another small minion to clear the Redemption-ed Challenger.
Step 1: Have at least 3 creatures on the board or you're going to take 7+ damage next turn.
@ current direction of the topic:
I think he's an insanely high valued card 6 mana gets you a 6/6 (Boulderfist Ogre) and up to 5 mana in secrets so almost 11 mana in value.
Of course there is the opportunity cost of putting so many secrets in your deck... Once Challenger is played he sucks them out of your deck so that you are significantly more likely to draw a lategame card on turn 7+. I don't think that the opportunity cost is quite as high as people are making it out to be.
It'll be interesting to see if the deck improves of peters out as people get better at playing around the secrets, haha.
Its easy to play around... If you have board control if you are behind before turn 6 mysterious challenger ends the game right there adn with sticky minions its hard to stay ahead because of the enemys efficient trades the times i won vs mysterious challenger is when hes played by himself which is rarely the case
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And yet, seems like it works fine, even with that huge weakness...
What do we have for 6 mana?
A 6/6 mnion. Draw X cards from your deck, not random. it worth mentioning that it also filters your deck, making your draw better. And then the secrets are played for free. While I agree that one by one, the secrets aren't really strong, they are powerful when combinated.
Nevertheless, it seems perfectly fine for many players.
Well, I guess it requires a bit more thinking than playing Dr. Boom so sometimes it doesn't work very well. But still, the value of Mysterious Challenger is insane. That alone, in a game like Hearthstone, is OP.
Not at all, decks that run mysterious challenger are bound to draw their secrets before they play the challenger. It happens almost every single game I am against a challenger deck. At least 1-3 secrets are played before he comes down. This is where kezan mystic becomes a viable option. When the opponent goes 3/4 drop into a 1 mana secret for example to fill out their curve, your mystic then gains significant value, and you have just swung the tempo in your favor, therefore making it a viable card. The times where a secret heavy paladin does not play a secret before 6 is very unlikely, so you cannot statistically factor that into your evaluation.
It is also worth noting that since hunter, mage, paladin and warrior are the top played classes (currently) it is likely that you will play a secret class with mystic above 60% of the time on average. Mystic was sometimes being run with only 2 legitimate secret classes, now there are 3, and mysterious challenger is debatably the most common class (in legend ranked where I am able to observe), mystic becomes more viable, and is therefore buffed.
To reinforce my previous statement, flare mid range hunter could be more common if this meta continues
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this card should read: PUT 2 SECRETS FROM YOUR DECK IN PLAY.
not all of them...
but secret pallys are boring as face hunters and all those decks..
people just plays what others are playing.. no creativity at all..
I have seem a purely mysterious challenger secret deck fizzle out many times due to drawing too many secrets. This is a huge weakness in the deck and if you understand you are playing against a Mysterious Challenger secret deck you can easily punish your opponent. Be aggressive if they are playing many secrets. Their cards have inherently less value (excluding mysterious). Establish a board pre turn-6. Force them to play sub optimally in order to survive, and then the challenger will be less of a problem.
This is what you do when facing it as a midrange/tempo deck. Aggro pushes aggressively as normal, and control has a good match up vs challenger due to aoe. Mysterious is an amazing card vs midrange/tempo decks because it is a powerful tempo card. Since tempo/midrange decks dominate the meta currently, the Mysterious challenger is more successful. Try switching up your deck choice, playstyle, or tech in counter cards in order to balance the match ups with your mid range/tempo decks.
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Mystic is an ok tech but is useless vs paladin. It won't swing games in your favor as it does with mage or hunter because a single paladin secret by itself is completely useless to you especially when your opponent knows which one it is. Just think about what the secrets are and the types of minions the paladin plays and you will understand.
Imo, its actually a very creative deck. I love seeing new archtypes in the meta, and people call the deck cancer, however it is because there ahs not been a dramatic meta-shift to counter the deck, or optimized deck lists to handle its style of play.
It is true that the hard aggro secret keeper challenger decks are pretty cancer, but there have been many mid range variations that are extremely interesting, creative, unique, and fun to play.
The card is balanced in my opinion. Yet it is VERY strong. But so is ysera, boom, tirion, etc. Strong cards are ok if they have opportunity cost that Thefalsehuman and JazzFan27 noted earlier.
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I think I understand very well. It is true it is not amazing vs paladin I agree, playing kezan into 1 paladin secret takes the card from bad to average, but is by no means good. However, im stating that by adding another secret class into the meta, this cards whiffs a lot less, and statistically is better. It is by no means useless. If the meta is dominated by 3/4 secret classes instead of 2/4 it becomes more viable to run in your deck.
By no means was I arguing the card is suddenly amazing, just more viable in the current meta due to the introduction of the class. When I began these replies, I did not say Kezan was a counter, it is a useful card that is not bad or amazing. My point was primarily focused around kezan mystic being more applicable in the meta compared to the previous meta where secret paladin was non existent.
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or add new cards to counter secrets... there are just 1 common to counter secrets.
Mysterious Challenger should be a legendary instead of eadric. simple as that :) and cost 7 mana.
or at least put no more than 2 secrets up... getting 6 secrets is indeed too much.
Creative deck ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa!No wait you are serious?AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHA!
Secret pala=eboladin-chargers+secrets+secret challenger SUCH CREATIVITY,VERY SMART WOW
Sorry for the sarcasm mate i just stop playing for today cause i faced only this deck.And before you ask i won 7/13 games so is not about losing.The deck is bullshit.They lose or they win by the selves.They draw poorly?you auto win even you draw poorly also.They draw decently gg unless you draw all your answers.
Its true aggro secret is ebola haha but there are some lists which are a good mix. Im sorry to hear that though I recommend playing a list that counters that deck specifically and you probably will have a pretty good win percentage.
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About Mysterious Challenger, I think it's s shame that it became the next hated card by all the Hearthstone bitches because I think it has the best Art in TGT (specially Golden) and I liked the idea that a card finally made Paladin secrets viable. Oh well, I'll just still play it in my mid-range Pally and ignore the QQing.