I mean yea razakus is extremely overtuned deck if he draws perfectly. But then again which deck isn't?
But there is also the scenario when Raza or DK is in bottom 5-10 cards. Deck suddenly becomes shitty excuse of a deck. Even the odds of having either raza or dk card in bottom 10 is likely.
People only remember when priest plays 4,5,8 cards and lose but they don't remember when priest actually does not draw well.
For me, that isn't the case at all. For starters, I have a pretty good win rate against it. The problem for me, is that it is just another "race to face" deck, just like Exodia Mage. When you some up against it, you toss almost all actual game strategy out the window, and just try to wreck face before they draw the "I WIN" card.
Whether a deck is beatable or not should not be the only deciding factor in a nerf. And historically, it isn't ... otherwise we would still only need 4 minions for Quest Rogue.
I think the game needs to strive to remove the guaranteed "I WIN" conditions. Most players would just go apeshit crazy if Blizz printed 2 cards ... "I" and "WIN", and if you drew those 2 cards out of your deck ... well, you won. But that is practically what Raza and Anduin amount to. Hell, even if the "I WIN" combo had a 50/50 coinflip attached to it, people would still flip out ... and I would bet that well more than 50% of the time that Raza and Aduin are played, the priest wins.
Hell, I guess to put it simply, I think all OTK's should be worked out of the game, period. Anything that can do 30+ damage in one turn ... gone. I don't believe it is in the "spirit of the game" that a player can go from zero damage to zero health in a single turn, because their is no "strategic" way to do that ... it is just draw the cards, that's it.
Razakus is a no-brainer deck and has no real counters in standart. If you try to tech against it , you will lose to all other decks out there.
There's loads of counters to Razakus. Jade Druid Face Hunter Frost Lich Mage Pirate Warrior Tempo Rogue
The list goes on... yuo just need to have a strategy on how to beat him and not panic. It won't always work, but that's the nature of Hearthstone... no deck is infallible.
And what you described is exactly how counter-decks are SUPPOSED to work. They aren't supposed to counter everything! Otherwise they would be OP and pointless.
It would be nice if we had a perfect counter to keep it in check though.
Razakus is a no-brainer deck and has no real counters in standart. If you try to tech against it , you will lose to all other decks out there.
There's loads of counters to Razakus. Jade Druid Face Hunter Frost Lich Mage Pirate Warrior Tempo Rogue
The list goes on... yuo just need to have a strategy on how to beat him and not panic. It won't always work, but that's the nature of Hearthstone... no deck is infallible.
And what you described is exactly how counter-decks are SUPPOSED to work. They aren't supposed to counter everything! Otherwise they would be OP and pointless.
It would be nice if we had a perfect counter to keep it in check though.
You could say that about any deck - and thus cause that deck to never be played anymore. Which would be detrimental to the health of the game.
Razakus is a no-brainer deck and has no real counters in standart. If you try to tech against it , you will lose to all other decks out there.
There's loads of counters to Razakus. Jade Druid Face Hunter Frost Lich Mage Pirate Warrior Tempo Rogue
The list goes on... yuo just need to have a strategy on how to beat him and not panic. It won't always work, but that's the nature of Hearthstone... no deck is infallible.
And what you described is exactly how counter-decks are SUPPOSED to work. They aren't supposed to counter everything! Otherwise they would be OP and pointless.
It would be nice if we had a perfect counter to keep it in check though.
You could say that about any deck - and thus cause that deck to never be played anymore. Which would be detrimental to the health of the game.
Not rly, control warrior was the perfect counter for freeze mage. Both decks were played a lot.
I think the game needs to strive to remove the guaranteed "I WIN" conditions. Most players would just go apeshit crazy if Blizz printed 2 cards ... "I" and "WIN", and if you drew those 2 cards out of your deck ... well, you won. But that is practically what Raza and Anduin amount to. Hell, even if the "I WIN" combo had a 50/50 coinflip attached to it, people would still flip out ... and I would bet that well more than 50% of the time that Raza and Aduin are played, the priest wins.
Hell, I guess to put it simply, I think all OTK's should be worked out of the game, period. Anything that can do 30+ damage in one turn ... gone. I don't believe it is in the "spirit of the game" that a player can go from zero damage to zero health in a single turn, because their is no "strategic" way to do that ... it is just draw the cards, that's it.
I can't really agree with the sentiment of removing OTKs from the game, since they have their place in battle gamese such as this and it is totally normal. If every game was just a turn-by-turn slugfest, then it would become incredibly boring - in fact, this was the problem with Hearthstone at the beginning when it was just starting out. There were fewi (if any) decent and playable synergies and almost every game was basiclaly who could play the most minions and keep beating face by maintaining board control. And people hated it. It was one of the biggest complaints/talked about problems - and also why the first expansion was so welcomed (especially since it took so long to arrive).
In reference to the other point above, there already are effectively mechanics in the game that are auto-win. But Raza and Anduin arent one of them. By themselves, they aren't actually a problem. If you take the Razakus deck and removed two other cards : Velen and Mind Blast Then the deck can still win but the winrate would plumment considerably. But it is the combination of 4 cards that ensure victory before being overwhelmed. And any decks that maintain a high life value (Control Warrior, or Frost Lich Mage) won't even bat an eyelid. Without means to keep refreshing the hero power, Anduin just becomes a bog standard shadow priest.
Razakus is a no-brainer deck and has no real counters in standart. If you try to tech against it , you will lose to all other decks out there.
There's loads of counters to Razakus. Jade Druid Face Hunter Frost Lich Mage Pirate Warrior Tempo Rogue
The list goes on... yuo just need to have a strategy on how to beat him and not panic. It won't always work, but that's the nature of Hearthstone... no deck is infallible.
And what you described is exactly how counter-decks are SUPPOSED to work. They aren't supposed to counter everything! Otherwise they would be OP and pointless.
Meh, Jade Druid is not THAT favored. Big Drood is better against Razakus.
And Control ("Frost Lich") Mage is actually unfavored vs Razakus, especially if both players knows their decks. Should've replaced it with Quest Mage.
Razakus is a no-brainer deck and has no real counters in standart. If you try to tech against it , you will lose to all other decks out there.
There's loads of counters to Razakus. Jade Druid Face Hunter Frost Lich Mage Pirate Warrior Tempo Rogue
The list goes on... yuo just need to have a strategy on how to beat him and not panic. It won't always work, but that's the nature of Hearthstone... no deck is infallible.
And what you described is exactly how counter-decks are SUPPOSED to work. They aren't supposed to counter everything! Otherwise they would be OP and pointless.
It would be nice if we had a perfect counter to keep it in check though.
You could say that about any deck - and thus cause that deck to never be played anymore. Which would be detrimental to the health of the game.
Not rly, control warrior was the perfect counter for freeze mage. Both decks were played a lot.
Control Warrior was a good deck in its own right. And wasn't built as a pure counter to Freeze Mage. If you want a good deck that often wins against priest though, choose pretty much any aggro deck. Priest often can't handle it unless they draw the nuts early on. Fortunately other control decks can beat aggro easily - and that is how it should be.
Think about it objectively for a moment : If you had one deck that could solidly always beat priest. AND it didn't lose to other decks. Then it would basically be unstoppable and would destroy the game. You would have the Pirate Warrior problem on steroids. This is not a good thing.
Razakus is a no-brainer deck and has no real counters in standart. If you try to tech against it , you will lose to all other decks out there.
There's loads of counters to Razakus. Jade Druid Face Hunter Frost Lich Mage Pirate Warrior Tempo Rogue
The list goes on... yuo just need to have a strategy on how to beat him and not panic. It won't always work, but that's the nature of Hearthstone... no deck is infallible.
And what you described is exactly how counter-decks are SUPPOSED to work. They aren't supposed to counter everything! Otherwise they would be OP and pointless.
It would be nice if we had a perfect counter to keep it in check though.
You could say that about any deck - and thus cause that deck to never be played anymore. Which would be detrimental to the health of the game.
Not rly, control warrior was the perfect counter for freeze mage. Both decks were played a lot.
Control Warrior was a good deck in its own right. And wasn't built as a pure counter to Freeze Mage. If you want a good deck that often wins against priest though, choose pretty much any aggro deck. Priest often can't handle it unless they draw the nuts early on. Fortunately other control decks can beat aggro easily - and that is how it should be.
Think about it objectively for a moment : If you had one deck that could solidly always beat priest. AND it didn't lose to other decks. Then it would basically be unstoppable and would destroy the game. You would have the Pirate Warrior problem on steroids. This is not a good thing.
I dont want that deck to beat other decks. I just want it exists so it will keep priest in check.
Razakus is a no-brainer deck and has no real counters in standart. If you try to tech against it , you will lose to all other decks out there.
There's loads of counters to Razakus. Jade Druid Face Hunter Frost Lich Mage Pirate Warrior Tempo Rogue
The list goes on... yuo just need to have a strategy on how to beat him and not panic. It won't always work, but that's the nature of Hearthstone... no deck is infallible.
And what you described is exactly how counter-decks are SUPPOSED to work. They aren't supposed to counter everything! Otherwise they would be OP and pointless.
It would be nice if we had a perfect counter to keep it in check though.
You could say that about any deck - and thus cause that deck to never be played anymore. Which would be detrimental to the health of the game.
Not rly, control warrior was the perfect counter for freeze mage. Both decks were played a lot.
Control Warrior was a good deck in its own right. And wasn't built as a pure counter to Freeze Mage. If you want a good deck that often wins against priest though, choose pretty much any aggro deck. Priest often can't handle it unless they draw the nuts early on. Fortunately other control decks can beat aggro easily - and that is how it should be.
Think about it objectively for a moment : If you had one deck that could solidly always beat priest. AND it didn't lose to other decks. Then it would basically be unstoppable and would destroy the game. You would have the Pirate Warrior problem on steroids. This is not a good thing.
I dont want that deck to beat other decks. I just want it exists so it will keep priest in check.
But... Priest is sub-50% win-rate and while it's strong, it's no more oppresive than Rogue/Drood in both ladder and tournament scene. I think that's 'kept in check'.
Priest isn't consistently op, but too often the right cards are drawn at the right time and it just wins the game. I think its how uninteractive it is that is frustrating, because you could say the same about aggro, but you usually have a chance to interact with minions and save yourself.
Control Warrior was a good deck in its own right. And wasn't built as a pure counter to Freeze Mage. If you want a good deck that often wins against priest though, choose pretty much any aggro deck. Priest often can't handle it unless they draw the nuts early on. Fortunately other control decks can beat aggro easily - and that is how it should be.
Think about it objectively for a moment : If you had one deck that could solidly always beat priest. AND it didn't lose to other decks. Then it would basically be unstoppable and would destroy the game. You would have the Pirate Warrior problem on steroids. This is not a good thing.
I dont want that deck to beat other decks. I just want it exists so it will keep priest in check.
My point was that the counter that you are asking for DOES exist. Just pick a decent aggro deck "et voila"! You have a counter to Priest which works pretty well without being so overpowered as to beating everything else as well.
Control Warrior was a good deck in its own right. And wasn't built as a pure counter to Freeze Mage. If you want a good deck that often wins against priest though, choose pretty much any aggro deck. Priest often can't handle it unless they draw the nuts early on. Fortunately other control decks can beat aggro easily - and that is how it should be.
Think about it objectively for a moment : If you had one deck that could solidly always beat priest. AND it didn't lose to other decks. Then it would basically be unstoppable and would destroy the game. You would have the Pirate Warrior problem on steroids. This is not a good thing.
I dont want that deck to beat other decks. I just want it exists so it will keep priest in check.
My point was that the counter that you are asking for DOES exist. Just pick a decent aggro deck "et voila"! You have a counter to Priest which works pretty well without being so overpowered as to beating everything else as well.
TBH the only aggro decks 'countering' Priest are teched Rogue and Pirate Warrior.
But there are still decks like Quest Mage, Big Drood and Dragon Priests and they are really good as a counters.
My point was that the counter that you are asking for DOES exist. Just pick a decent aggro deck "et voila"! You have a counter to Priest which works pretty well without being so overpowered as to beating everything else as well.
TBH the only aggro decks 'countering' Priest are teched Rogue and Pirate Warrior.
But there are still decks like Quest Mage, Big Drood and Dragon Priests and they are really good as a counters.
Face Hunter is very good against Priest right now. Mostly due to the deathrattle beasts causing a problem with the Priest board clears. It counters Priest very well, but falls to other more conventional Control decks (which is as it should be, I guess). Pirate Warrior (while much less used these days except for the small few desperate to still play it) also seems to have a pretty good matchup against it.
Basically anything that aims to kill you by about turn 7, really, before the Priest can stabilise and start the draw mechanics of Lyra, et al.
As said in other threads, it doesn't need a nerf. The majority of the players who play it land it at T3, and some people can play it really, really well. Just because some people make it really good doesn't mean it needs a nerf - if more people played it right, it might.
This is gonna be a pretty controversial suggestion, but just bear with me for a second.
I think the perfect nerf to Razakus would be if they just removed Raza completely (from Standard....put him in Wild, because that format is a little crazy anyways).
But not right away, give us a heads up so we can have a few months of a 'last hurrah' with Raza. Remove him from the game (from Standard, remember) sometime in Spring 2018.
Controversial, I know, but I think it would be a pretty solid nerf.
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This is gonna be a pretty controversial suggestion, but just bear with me for a second.
I think the perfect nerf to Razakus would be if they just removed Raza completely (from Standard....put him in Wild, because that format is a little crazy anyways).
But not right away, give us a heads up so we can have a few months of a 'last hurrah' with Raza. Remove him from the game (from Standard, remember) sometime in Spring 2018.
Controversial, I know, but I think it would be a pretty solid nerf.
He already leaves standard then-- OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I get what you mean
Control Warrior was a good deck in its own right. And wasn't built as a pure counter to Freeze Mage. If you want a good deck that often wins against priest though, choose pretty much any aggro deck. Priest often can't handle it unless they draw the nuts early on. Fortunately other control decks can beat aggro easily - and that is how it should be.
Think about it objectively for a moment : If you had one deck that could solidly always beat priest. AND it didn't lose to other decks. Then it would basically be unstoppable and would destroy the game. You would have the Pirate Warrior problem on steroids. This is not a good thing.
I dont want that deck to beat other decks. I just want it exists so it will keep priest in check.
My point was that the counter that you are asking for DOES exist. Just pick a decent aggro deck "et voila"! You have a counter to Priest which works pretty well without being so overpowered as to beating everything else as well.
TBH the only aggro decks 'countering' Priest are teched Rogue and Pirate Warrior.
But there are still decks like Quest Mage, Big Drood and Dragon Priests and they are really good as a counters.
1. Sorry about the mash up of posts earlier. Two different people both kinda tossing the same thing out at once, and it got confusing there. My apologies.
2. I get the initial "knee jerk" reaction when someone says "but my experience in "xx" games =/= the VS report". I had actually written a pretty lengthy post last night trying to give some specific arguments why we should not take VS reports as "Gospel" in this game. I really don't want to try to recreate that post (that wen't "poof" when Chrome decided to take a crap on me), so I will paraphrase pretty extensively.
VS data is gathered from a very specific subset of players ... those that are willing to run the client for the data to be gathered. And the vast majority of those players are of a significantly above "average" skill level. I realize VS breaks data down into categories based on rank, but we all know that not every Legend level player pushes to Legend every month. So while they may be presenting data from across the rank spectrum, the majority of that data is coming from Legend level players, or those close to it. This does skew that data enough that it cannot be presented as "fact", at least not as it relates to the game community as a whole.
While my little sample size may only be 54 games, I believe it is possibly a better representation of the "real" players meta. I am nothing special in this game. I do not sail through the ladder to Legend every month. In fact I tend to struggle at every rank floor, and I grind out every star, every game. I have finally gotten pretty consistent at landing around Rank 6, but also tend to yo-yo back and forth between 6 and 10 for a good part of the season. This seems to be a very common thing when you start to interact with a larger group of "Average Joe's" in the game. Most will spend the majority of a season either bouncing around 10-6, or 15-11.
And, now with scorpyon, it is the same response ... "only aggro decks countering' Priest are teched Rogue and Pirate Warrior." This just isn't the case. You don't have to believe my 42-12 sample to see this ... just apply some common sense and logic. The deck is, for the most part, a face race, just like Exodia Mage. The best "counter" to it (with the exception of Big Druid), is going to be to kill it off before Turn 8 if possible. This is just forcing people to play decks that otherwise would be more of a tempo deck in an aggro fashion, or switch to outright aggro decks, to counter it.
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I wanna glide down, over Mulholland I wanna write her, name in the sky I wanna free fall, out into nothin' Gonna leave this, world for awhile
My point was that the counter that you are asking for DOES exist. Just pick a decent aggro deck "et voila"! You have a counter to Priest which works pretty well without being so overpowered as to beating everything else as well.
TBH the only aggro decks 'countering' Priest are teched Rogue and Pirate Warrior.
But there are still decks like Quest Mage, Big Drood and Dragon Priests and they are really good as a counters.
And, now with scorpyon, it is the same response ... "only aggro decks countering' Priest are teched Rogue and Pirate Warrior." This just isn't the case.
That wasn't me that said that, bud! ;-)
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Whether a deck is beatable or not should not be the only deciding factor in a nerf. And historically, it isn't ... otherwise we would still only need 4 minions for Quest Rogue.
I think the game needs to strive to remove the guaranteed "I WIN" conditions. Most players would just go apeshit crazy if Blizz printed 2 cards ... "I" and "WIN", and if you drew those 2 cards out of your deck ... well, you won. But that is practically what Raza and Anduin amount to. Hell, even if the "I WIN" combo had a 50/50 coinflip attached to it, people would still flip out ... and I would bet that well more than 50% of the time that Raza and Aduin are played, the priest wins.
Hell, I guess to put it simply, I think all OTK's should be worked out of the game, period. Anything that can do 30+ damage in one turn ... gone. I don't believe it is in the "spirit of the game" that a player can go from zero damage to zero health in a single turn, because their is no "strategic" way to do that ... it is just draw the cards, that's it.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile
Which would be detrimental to the health of the game.
If every game was just a turn-by-turn slugfest, then it would become incredibly boring - in fact, this was the problem with Hearthstone at the beginning when it was just starting out. There were fewi (if any) decent and playable synergies and almost every game was basiclaly who could play the most minions and keep beating face by maintaining board control. And people hated it. It was one of the biggest complaints/talked about problems - and also why the first expansion was so welcomed (especially since it took so long to arrive).
Then the deck can still win but the winrate would plumment considerably. But it is the combination of 4 cards that ensure victory before being overwhelmed.
And any decks that maintain a high life value (Control Warrior, or Frost Lich Mage) won't even bat an eyelid. Without means to keep refreshing the hero power, Anduin just becomes a bog standard shadow priest.
If you want a good deck that often wins against priest though, choose pretty much any aggro deck. Priest often can't handle it unless they draw the nuts early on.
Fortunately other control decks can beat aggro easily - and that is how it should be.
This is not a good thing.
Priest isn't consistently op, but too often the right cards are drawn at the right time and it just wins the game. I think its how uninteractive it is that is frustrating, because you could say the same about aggro, but you usually have a chance to interact with minions and save yourself.
It counters Priest very well, but falls to other more conventional Control decks (which is as it should be, I guess).
Pirate Warrior (while much less used these days except for the small few desperate to still play it) also seems to have a pretty good matchup against it.
As said in other threads, it doesn't need a nerf. The majority of the players who play it land it at T3, and some people can play it really, really well. Just because some people make it really good doesn't mean it needs a nerf - if more people played it right, it might.
This is gonna be a pretty controversial suggestion, but just bear with me for a second.
I think the perfect nerf to Razakus would be if they just removed Raza completely (from Standard....put him in Wild, because that format is a little crazy anyways).
But not right away, give us a heads up so we can have a few months of a 'last hurrah' with Raza. Remove him from the game (from Standard, remember) sometime in Spring 2018.
Controversial, I know, but I think it would be a pretty solid nerf.
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2. I get the initial "knee jerk" reaction when someone says "but my experience in "xx" games =/= the VS report". I had actually written a pretty lengthy post last night trying to give some specific arguments why we should not take VS reports as "Gospel" in this game. I really don't want to try to recreate that post (that wen't "poof" when Chrome decided to take a crap on me), so I will paraphrase pretty extensively.
VS data is gathered from a very specific subset of players ... those that are willing to run the client for the data to be gathered. And the vast majority of those players are of a significantly above "average" skill level. I realize VS breaks data down into categories based on rank, but we all know that not every Legend level player pushes to Legend every month. So while they may be presenting data from across the rank spectrum, the majority of that data is coming from Legend level players, or those close to it. This does skew that data enough that it cannot be presented as "fact", at least not as it relates to the game community as a whole.
While my little sample size may only be 54 games, I believe it is possibly a better representation of the "real" players meta. I am nothing special in this game. I do not sail through the ladder to Legend every month. In fact I tend to struggle at every rank floor, and I grind out every star, every game. I have finally gotten pretty consistent at landing around Rank 6, but also tend to yo-yo back and forth between 6 and 10 for a good part of the season. This seems to be a very common thing when you start to interact with a larger group of "Average Joe's" in the game. Most will spend the majority of a season either bouncing around 10-6, or 15-11.
And, now with scorpyon, it is the same response ... "only aggro decks countering' Priest are teched Rogue and Pirate Warrior." This just isn't the case. You don't have to believe my 42-12 sample to see this ... just apply some common sense and logic. The deck is, for the most part, a face race, just like Exodia Mage. The best "counter" to it (with the exception of Big Druid), is going to be to kill it off before Turn 8 if possible. This is just forcing people to play decks that otherwise would be more of a tempo deck in an aggro fashion, or switch to outright aggro decks, to counter it.
I wanna glide down, over Mulholland
I wanna write her, name in the sky
I wanna free fall, out into nothin'
Gonna leave this, world for awhile
Or make voidform only be able to target minions
Fuck cubelock
LMAO. You're gonna want to nerf the only actual fun deck to play?