Changed Core Cards Will Replace Legacy Cards with Same Name - Discussion Ongoing
There's been quite some confusion about cards that have been changed being in Legacy set and Core set at the same time, which version do you get in Wild? The current implentation is that the Core set version will be the only one used, which has lead to outcry of people using the old versions in Wild decks, most particularly Stonetusk Boar and Bluegill Warrior Multiple Blizzard developers and several community figures weighed in on the changes and the discussion may have perhaps changed Blizzards stance on the issue.
Let us know in the comments what your stance is in this balance issue!
Start of the Conversation
Quote from twitterWill cards from Classic / Basic moving to Legacy be the same as the ones from the Core set, or will they remain how they are now?
If they are different, can we run both versions on the same deck?
If they are the same, will you provide full dust refund for nerfed cards?
Quote from Alec DawsonThey will be the same as they are in Core, Basic cards do not get a refund since they are Basic. There will be a refund for the old Ysera since her Dream cards have changed.
Community Weighs In and Iksar Responds
Quote from ZeddyWild is a place to play your favorite decks of old. This statement is becoming more and more untrue every year and should not be a reason to more continously balance the format especially with the introduction of Classic. Please reconsider your stance on this IksarHS and company
Quote from Dean "Iksar" AyalaAs you know, there is rarely one aspect to any decision. In this case:
Potential Upsides:
Don't have multiple versions of the same card in multiple game modes.
Possible Wild is just more fun without Bluegill and Stonetusk Boar.
Quote from Dean "Iksar" AyalaPotential Downsides:
Players that love using those cards won't be able to use them in the same way.
Wild potentially just more fun with Charge on those two cards.
Quote from Dean "Iksar" AyalaIn this case, we felt pros outweighed the cons, but it's not an exact science choice. The answer to 'did you think about this thing' is usually going to be yes.
Iksar Mentions a Possible Solution
Quote from Dean "Iksar" AyalaIf we were to change, we'd almost certainly just remove the version of stonetusk and bluegill in core and replace them with two different cards instead of keeping different versions across the two modes.
Quote from Brian KiblerThat seems like the best solution to me to avoid breaking decks people may really enjoy in wild
Quote from ZeddyI personally think this would be the best decision going forward if we see more changes like this in the future. I'm also very happy to see you guys so quick to discuss this and share it with us. Regardless very excited for the core set and everything coming up.
Quote from Dean "Iksar" AyalaFwiw, Boar has caused more designs to not exist than any other single card I can think of. Some benefit to getting that space back. Though it's possible some of those designs would have slipped through if we were just talking about Wild.
Iksar Mentions The Design Team's Thoughts
Quote from Dean "Iksar" AyalaWe talked about it some more today, though. Some differing opinions among the design team so I could see changing that stance.
Yeah that's a fair point and makes sense. For example a 10 mana 10/10 demon with charge would be really scary because of Archwith Willow. But other than tribal mana cheating I cannot think of any other we have at the moment. As for otk decks, while Mozaki is very niche and doesn't see much success on ladder, OTK demon hunter is a bit more reliable and is actually seeing a lot of play in open cups. And you forget two OTK warriors we have, silas and etc, both of which having been tier 1 in the near past. Nothing wrong with the neutral burst of charge, as long as you cannot cheat out expensive minions (a mechanic I am not a big fan of), or buff up and duplicate 1 mana minions.
While almost everyone realised Blizzard kinda wanted to change all their charge stuff into rush ever since rush was introduced and charge minions were slowly but surely removed from every standard rotation, i do hope that now we will start seeing more interesting charge stuff, and not bench the mechanic forever.
Uninteractive argument? Aren't OTK decks very uninteractive? They push them, and we have 4 otk decks doing alright to very well in the meta. Aren't stealth minions uninteractive? especially cheap ones with 3 attack? Rogue keeps virtually the entire stealth package moving forward into the new year. Isn't pen flinger uninteractive and annoying, especially in libram paladin (and not only, it is now staple in stealth rogue and was popular in soul demon hunter)?
I think those mechanics are alright, and rock paper scissors is a very good way for you to counter the meta or prepare a really good tournament lineup. However, please don't forget Charge. I know they have been pushing it for demon hunter, but give it to other classes too. You can do creative stuff. Make them expensive, but powerful. Make your opponents fear them, but give them a chance to prepare for an expensive charge minion by keeping health up or saving a key taunt or a mirror image for the charge turn.
Thanks for reading.
Blizz don't push OTK hard - Blizz usually works to avoid having a combo deck as tier 1. Mozaki mage isn't top tier; murlocs aren't OTK, and Il'gy is a very unusual situation (it's also in an abysmal place in the meta, I find, with big boards in the 7-9 turn range very hard to handle [stuff like libram paladin, big druids that you don't pressure so early SotF etc.]). Wild is different, without the same attention from Blizz, hence why OTKS can happen there (though, fortunately, they do nerf when out of control, such as Hysterical tiller).
Charge is basically neutral burst. Feels like they're making the same effect by battlecries (see new Alex), which doesn't have the same buffing dangers. The move away from charge to battlecries does mean a small push away from taunts for protection, though. Also worth remembering how Doomguard has been known to be ridiculous with cubes and mana cheat shananigans - not all expensive chargers are safe. I think we'll actually see more cards that cheat in expensive minions now that we don't have Malygos looming large over the format, so expensive chargers are counterproductive to that.
How completely unsurprising.
What should have been a simple change and rollout turned into an absolute shitshow. Par the course for the current Hearthstone team.
It's time for these charge cards to go. They do limit design space more than most people realize, even frequenters to this site and board. If you truly want to play some of these cards as-is, then play Hearthstone Classic as it was in 2014. I play standard/core, BGs, and I do actually enjoy Duels.
From Standard? Certainly. In Wild? Eh, I don't think they limit design space that much, considering what Wild already allows (and how little blizz really care about the format, basically emergency nerfs only, and even then they wait two weeks).
Cheap charge minions and Maly both have been restrictive on the STD design space for years. Also, not too unlikely that Patches becomes in charge again.
Really hoping that boar/bluegill get alternate versions as it does have impacts without them existing. APM test subject priest was a hillarious deck that I'd hate to see disappear if I wanted to play it for fun, and bluegill gone makes anyfin paladin worthless. Also dire frenzy boar hunter was pretty fun.
At this point they just need to get rid of charge entirely. If it's just going to be a mechanic they always replace with rush or only use on the occasional Demon Hunter legendary, then there's no point in it even existing anymore. It's been clear for the last 4 years that Blizzard doesn't want it in the game.
Yeah they kind of went after Charge minions a bit too hard, I also support splitting the new versions of the cards and old ones apart. Make a new Rush Beast and a Rush Murloc and send the OGs to Wild to be with their long lost friends :P
Yes. I know children doesn't like zeddy at all, neither do I but the guy say some real stuff. it's very normal to teenagers and children being angry of old guys like him when he knows what he's talking about.
I still dont get it exactly.
So let's say i get changed Lock and Load from the new core set. But what if i want to craft the original one? Can i still craft it? and if i do, Do i have two versions of the card? Is the og one still 2 mana or does it change to 1 mana too?
The card is giong to be changed. The old variant will no longer exist. If you have it from GvG, that/those copies will become one mana.
This is significantly different to the dragon aspects, who get new cards, with the old ones remaining the same (with the exception of Ysera, who is the same except she uses the new pool of changed dream cards, even old Ysera who will still exist).
So when the change hits, there will be zero stonetusk boars with charge anywhere except the classic format.
Good to see hearthpwn reporting on this :) Personally, I'm in the 'make new version' camp, but I can understand blizz' point. I think it sets a bad precedent to take old cards and change them for pulling into STD. Tracking is arguably a nerf (dodged a fair few bombs that way!), for example. I'm also suspicious of the 'boar caused more cards to not exist than any other' - whilst I don't doubt the quote, I don't think blizz think too much about Wild balance when producing new cards. Their reaction to Hysteria - leaving it for over a week, despite seeing the combo pre-release and wanting to see how it shook out - screams that they either did it deliberately or didn't see it and talked a load of bull. Now that Boar is not standard, many more of those cards can be printed anyway, because the power level in WIld is generally significantly higher.
Flip knows how Jaraxxus will work, due to different card type. Still holding out faint hope for double Jaraxxus. Main reason not to have multiple cards with the same name is UI and customer interaction; if it's underlying systems then somebody has programmed it stupidly (not to mention that they've done un-nerfed cards before, and will with classic mode).
Free 3200 Dust for me then. PogChamp
Actually they give coreset for free. U will always have core set. No matter what. After rotation you still have core set.
I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m replying to the question
They are asking if they should dust classic cards or wait to open packs because they’ll be getting copies.
Those copies that you are being “given” are not copies for you to do what you wish, they are essentially rentals until the rotation and you get the next core set for free. You can’t dust those cards and holding onto classic packs isn’t necessary (barring the example I gave).
For the people wondering about the Bluegill and the boar change, keep in mind that Blizzard works on hearthstone 1 year ahead. They make changes that make sense for the upcoming expansion. It might seem weird at first but later it'll make sense.
Dude, we don't fucking care if it doesn't work, or at least if it doesn't work always. Not everyone wants to play top tier decks, some of us want to play jank and boar was a source of funny combos.
Boar and Bluegill hardly see any play anyway and if they do it's in some kind of toxic 1 turn finisher with no room for counter play. Good riddance to see them go, especially if it frees up design space as much as they say it does.
I think it's interesting they changed Stonetusk Boar and Bluegill Warrior to rush +1 attack, but they completely replaced Kor'kron Elite with Warsong Outrider. They could have either replaced the two neutral charge minions with rush cards or given Kor'kron Elite +1/+1 rush for consistency.