Rise of Shadows Card Nerfs - What Do Pros Want To See Smacked?
IGN's Cam Shea got a chance to speak with a few of Hearthstone's pros at this past weekend's HCT World Championship and talked about card nerfs. Below you'll find our recap and you can read their thoughts it full here.
Card nerfs have been a very popular community topic post expansion launch, as they always are, though could it be different this time around? Here's what pros had to say about the Rise of Shadows set and any cards they think should get hit with the nerf bat.
- Ike thinks the meta hasn't fully progressed yet due to "sixteen of the best players ... [not] sharing anything"
- Justsaiyan says Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is a problem. Everyone is playing Warrior which means long games, he feels like not even playing mirrors. Boom is strong due to the DK rotation.
- Bunnyhoppor thinks Rogue is too strong. He also has this to say:
- Rogue opposition needs to have an answer for Waggle Pick or Raiding Party.
- Edwin VanCleef should be removed. He proposes moving Edwin to the Hall of Fame and making Preparation's effect a 2-cost reduction.
- Magic Carpet is not an issue right now but could be if Rogue gets nerfed.
- Possibly need to do something about Dr. Boom, Mad Genius because it might be healthy for player sentiment.
- Wants to see changes before Hearthstone Grandmasters begins as he doesn't want to see everyone only playing Rogue and Warrior.
- Hunterace thinks the biggest problem is EVIL Miscreant due to the Rogue pool being very strong. Bump the cost up to 4.
Proposed Nerf Targets
Some of these are conditionally, though they certainly echo community thoughts.
Your Thoughts
Are there any cards you think need to be hit with a nerf after these past few weeks of playing Rise of Shadows? Let us know down below.
Personally, I'm quite amazed Magic Carpet was even printed and will continue to quite enjoy the shenanigans in Zoolock while I still can. Increasing the cost seems like the most viable way to deal with it to keep the effect intact.
I also think that Augmented Elekk gives Warrior way too much power. Increasing its cost so it can remain a viable option for getting onto the field later in the game seems acceptable.
Ugh, I'm tired of people complaining about standard cards. The meta is quite healthy right now, and nerfs are only going to neuter the most popular/most optimal decks rather than fixing any kind of brokenness. The only things that really need to be looked at right now are in wild. Big Priest is getting extremely out of hand and something needs to be hit in order to balance it out. Darkest Hour Warlock might not be as consistent as other strategies, but it's still too easy to pull off a 0 counterplay win. Not sure what to do to fix it, but these two need to be looked at.
Uh negative ghost rider the meta is not even close to healthy. There are currently three classes that are 100% not competitive. Shaman is a crap shoot depending on the match. which leaves us with a meta dominated by Warrior, Rogue and Mage with the occasional zoo showing up now and then. which just means Warlock is not any different than it was years ago forced to play zoo yet AGAIN.
guys really?
what other decks does rogue has other than tempo that they can win with?
so you want to nerf the hell out of the cards then rogue goes to play what?
bogo is meme due to no survive cards in rogue so they can't go long vs tempo / aggro classes so do steal rogue
so you want to kill the entire class?
some nerfs are acceptable but why edwin?
Rogue is a class known for risk and cheating! when they put edwin it's all or nothing if it's removed they goodbye
why none runs owl? or early removal if you know the meta is around early edwin?
remember odd rogue? with hunch-clan thug on 3 4/4 with 2/2 already equipped? then they used owl for that but now they keep crying
I agree that nerfing Prep or Edwin would hurt Rogue substantially, and more than necessary, but I wouldn't count on the devs (or the community, for that matter) taking that into consideration too much. Just look at Druid.
Dr. Boom, Mad Genius - I do think the card is a bit unfair in a world without death knights. The rush mechs can win you any midrange board battle and the hero power is just extra value every singe turn. Not sure how to nerf him though...Can't change the mana cost or armor gain because of the flavor...removing the battlecry would be weird because every hero card has one. And nerfing any particular hero power doesn't have much effect because it's just one out of five. Maybe we just have to accept that warrior and shaman ( because of Hagatha ) are going to be the best late game control classes until next rotation...or until another class gets a good hero card.
But from what I've seen the main reason warrior gets played this much is because it is the only class that can reliably beat rogue. So I think rogue is a bigger problem.
EVIL Miscreant is totally fine in my opinion. It's fun to play and I never feel bad when it gets played against me. The opponent just gets some resources and a body with 1 attack that can't really do too much. Obviously the card is good...but I feel like it never has a massive impact on the outcome of the game.
Edwin VanCleef - I never liked playing against this card. If it gets played in the late game whatever...by then you probably have an answer for a giant Edwin. But the reason it's played is because it can win games on the spot when played in the early game and that's no fun at all for the opponent. ,,Oh you had a good enough hand for a 10/10 Edwin turn 3 and I have no answer...I guess I lose,, What a great game that was. You can say ,,but it's risky! The rogue can lose instantly if you do have the answer,, but even that doesn't lead to fun gameplay... ,,Oh I was lucky enough to have this in the early game so I guess I win now,, . I think nerfing the combo effect to be +2/+1 for each card would be great because it would be easier to answer in the early game and it would still be playable.
Preparation - I've been playing hearthstone since beta and ever since standard became a thing and Innervate was nerfed...I was puzzled by Blizzard not HoFing or nerfing this design space limiting tempo monster. How many rogue spells up until now have been overcosted because this card exists? How many more years will we see miracle rogue crawl back into standard? How many Rogue spells get oppressive because they get cheated out for 3 mana less? I will tell you two of those that are in the meta right now. Raiding Party and Myra's Unstable Element . Both of those wouldn't be nearly as good if you had to actually lose tempo to play them. How many times do I turn a game around and have lethal next against a rogue only for them to Prep + Myra's and then have tons of mana to turn the situation around with their high tempo cards. We can all agree that Wagglepick into Dread Corsair on turn 4 is really strong and Raiding Party fetching both of those is super good...but if the rogue had to work harder to combo the card and pay 3 mana, lose tempo and give you the chance to prepare yourself for such a big tempo swing it would be totally fine. Anyone remember Quest Rogue? The deck that almost everyone hated and was super polarizing? The main reason that deck functioned is because you could prep Vanish or prep the quest. Otherwise both of those cards would cost you the entire turn in the midgame and that would get you killed even against slower midrange decks.
It should get nerfed because even for Wild it's too strong. Probably make it give only a 2 mana reduction or maybe even 1. I know it would be a worse Counterfeit Coin...but it never rotates since it's classic so it shouldn't really have a high power lvl and I think at 2 mana it would probably still see almost as much play as today. I mean...they turned Fiery War Axe into a worse King's Defender so it's not unprecedented.
Barnes - Just make him a 6 mana 5/5 or something please. Loosing on turn 4 to a highroll Barnes from Big Priest stopped being fun after the first time it happened.
Yeah i agree. I have never understood the druid mana acceleration nerf and Prep left untouched. Both classes utilized easy cheap mana acceleration to further their position.The problem is there is no good way to change it without destroying it like they did the druid cards. HOF seems the best bet but doubtful that happens.
Nerf bombs to 3 damage.
HoF Leeroy
Evil Miscreant needs to either be 1/3 or upped to 4 mana.
Edwin is fine. Problem is is that pros don't run silence. Every time I see someone play it, I have removal waiting.
You are better then a pro
I think waggle pick just needs a little nerf but other than that everything is fairly balanced I just think rouge is a bit dominate but the problem is none of their cards are super broken so it's hard to nerf
Please if u will nerf, nerf, do not kill cards!!! ;(
I like winning so I always craft tier 1 decks, but then the downside is that I'm always sad when nerfs are announced :(
However, one thing I take away from this thread is that professional players have their own personal agendas, mannerisms or biases, most of which are relatively unjustifiable, just like any player. And like any other player, more often than not these opinions aren't justifiable with concrete facts, unless the interaction is actually mechanically or functionally broken (think Shudderwock pre-nerf). The only real difference between these professional players is that they probably play more than the average player. This doesn't mean that their opinions mean more, they are just as qualified (or unqualified) as any other person's. Take Bunnyhoppor for example, he thinks that Edwin VanCleef should be HoF'd, and yet the rest of the community thinks the opposite. Just because an "expert" says that a card must be nerfed doesn't mean it 100% should be, it's just another opinion to through into the landfill.
That said, I would have called for a Conjurer's Calling nerf, but I guess I'll have to learn to deal with it.
I was surprised not to see mage up there TBH. that's the deck that gives me the most trouble for sure.
Of course pros are still humans with certain likes and dislikes towards certain styles and they will tend to cry out against cards they belong into styles they dislike more. I still don't think that it makes them as unjustifiable as any player in their opinions. For instance I myself like aggro and combo decks more, and while I can see pitting every card in each player's deck against each other as epic if it happens once in a blue moon, I find it really boring when it happens every other game.
With that in mind I would like a dr. Boom nerf and wouldn't want a prep or Edwin nerf since these cards are the main reason rogue has a chance against warrior. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if I heard about an Edwin nerf because as an individual card, its power level is way above most other cards, especially in a class like rogue where they got a ton of cheap cards to buff it. Even the miscreant nerf, while it might seem weird for some, Firebat had made a video that pretty much showed the correlation on how well a deck does against rogue with how easily you can kill their miscreant on 3. On the other hand I was hearing from twitch chat about how militia commander should be nerfed when a streamer was getting beat by one.
What I'm getting at is that while I don't think that Blizzard should nerf what pros say should be nerfed since they are human beings with preferences and not game designers, I think that pros are probably the most accurate in identifying the strongest cards of each class and what makes a deck stick together, so if a card is getting nerfed they are probably the best people to ask to narrow the pool for you.
Edwin has ALWAYS been a problem in the game excluding last year when rogue was in bad shape and only quest was really viable. BEfore that though Edwin has always been a staple in the meta. Hell he has ALWAYS been in the World championships and played a factor in some way or another. The card is to swingy to be allowed to go any further in the game.
Based on Blizzard's recent nerfing habits, my bet is on:
Elysiana goes to 9 mana.
The baleful banker/Elysiana play is problematic. My guess is devs figured stashing two cards for this combo wouldn't be workable since two slots are sacrificed for an end game play, but it clearly does work. She needs to be a one-off
Preparation gives two mana rather than three ( similar to nerf to naturalize )
Blizzard's made it clear that they don't want the classic/basic sets to set the tone for the Meta, but rather provide tools for the class possibilities and fill in the gaps of whatever the expansions offer. The rogue sets are quite strong so we're likely about to see a similar nerf bat taken to Rogue like we saw to Paladin last year.
Maybe they go further, but this one simple change covers a lot of bases. Raiding party pushed back a turn at least. Edwin combos not as big. Pretty much the strong plays are pushed back a turn with this change. Also makes sense from a $ standpoint. Leaves legendaries alone and refunds only an epic.
all of these cards will balance out when more sets come out
I see the point behind the suggestions. Warrior mirrors are extremely stretched out and boring, even more than in the past, and Rogue can very quickly decide games with a good draw that usually involves Prep and Raiding Party. I don't think the cards are "broken" but there are not many ways to efficiently counter turns involving these cards, and certainly not in every class.
However, I'm not a fan of nerfs, and I'd personally prefer the devs would just finally introduce a blacklist to temporarily ban problematic cards from Ranked Play/Tournaments, until a new expansion can add some necessary counters. No need to swing the hammer and make another bunch of cards unplayable for all eternity in good old Blizzard fashion as they did with so many others.
The only thing I have really grown sick of is high-rolling Barnes and Darkest Hour in Wild. They might not be the strongest/most consistent decks, but by far the most frustrating to play against. Again, I'd rather have cards that really shut these decks down and discourage most players from just trying their luck with them, but in case of Big Priest, I've been waiting for way too long already, and in the meantime, the deck only got more support.
When I first starting playing HS, I'd always assumed the goal was to make all classes broadly balanced and equally viable. Sure deck A is favored against deck B but unfavored against deck C, but all classes should ideally have viable archetypes that are competitive. Meta should not be dominated by just a few classes.
I get that's hard to do with 9 classes especially with rotations, and new sets - but that it was the ideal design goal. And some metas we have had very broad class representation which I personally think it a good thing. Like class X? Great, here's a few archetypes that are competitive in the meta much (some?) of the time.
I was surprised when the devs said that wasn't the goal at all. I can't cite where they said that exactly, but they did. They seem happy with a few classes dominating and changing it up every new set or two.
OK well here's one quote I found though it isn't as clear as the one I'm thinking of (maybe it was a youtube vid somewhere).
From https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-05-11-balancing-hearthstone
9 mana would be the stupidest thing they've ever done. Nobody plays a 9 mana do nothing card that's straight stupid. Edwin doesn't need a nerf as it's easily removable/stoppable and an all or nothing card. Barnes should summon a 1/1 with the text of a minion in your deck so res effects resummon a 1/1. Carpet could become a 1/5 and it would be fine. Waggle Pick should become a 3 mana 3/2 with the same effect. It would curve worse with raiding party and still be strong. Also Raiding Party to 4 could be interesting.