Rise of Shadows Card Nerfs - What Do Pros Want To See Smacked?
IGN's Cam Shea got a chance to speak with a few of Hearthstone's pros at this past weekend's HCT World Championship and talked about card nerfs. Below you'll find our recap and you can read their thoughts it full here.
Card nerfs have been a very popular community topic post expansion launch, as they always are, though could it be different this time around? Here's what pros had to say about the Rise of Shadows set and any cards they think should get hit with the nerf bat.
- Ike thinks the meta hasn't fully progressed yet due to "sixteen of the best players ... [not] sharing anything"
- Justsaiyan says Dr. Boom, Mad Genius is a problem. Everyone is playing Warrior which means long games, he feels like not even playing mirrors. Boom is strong due to the DK rotation.
- Bunnyhoppor thinks Rogue is too strong. He also has this to say:
- Rogue opposition needs to have an answer for Waggle Pick or Raiding Party.
- Edwin VanCleef should be removed. He proposes moving Edwin to the Hall of Fame and making Preparation's effect a 2-cost reduction.
- Magic Carpet is not an issue right now but could be if Rogue gets nerfed.
- Possibly need to do something about Dr. Boom, Mad Genius because it might be healthy for player sentiment.
- Wants to see changes before Hearthstone Grandmasters begins as he doesn't want to see everyone only playing Rogue and Warrior.
- Hunterace thinks the biggest problem is EVIL Miscreant due to the Rogue pool being very strong. Bump the cost up to 4.
Proposed Nerf Targets
Some of these are conditionally, though they certainly echo community thoughts.
Your Thoughts
Are there any cards you think need to be hit with a nerf after these past few weeks of playing Rise of Shadows? Let us know down below.
Personally, I'm quite amazed Magic Carpet was even printed and will continue to quite enjoy the shenanigans in Zoolock while I still can. Increasing the cost seems like the most viable way to deal with it to keep the effect intact.
I also think that Augmented Elekk gives Warrior way too much power. Increasing its cost so it can remain a viable option for getting onto the field later in the game seems acceptable.
I swear if they touch Edwin.....
I really hope they don't. they can't nerf edwin based on a rotation meta. there's only 3 temporary sets at the moment. I thought it was just a given that it would end up lopsided.
every season has this "nerf everything on top of meta" phase...
Bunny is spot on about the Grandmasters. If they don;t handle this stuff now it's going to be a one or two deck events like the qualifiers have been and it will take a long time to finish those events. Honestly this whole one deck format is just horrible for actually viewing. It will be like watching a MTG event where the majority are play two or three decks except in this case games will be 30-40 minutes as aoopposed to a MTG match which is done in an hour or less.
When you got two class cards in, you know you gonna get castrated left and right. Just like druid did.
Dr. Boom, Mad Genius will probably get a nerf as well as in something in Rogue and maybe the Magic Carpet. To be honest, if Blizzard promises to undo any types of nerf to Dr. Boom when he rotates into the wild, I am totally fine with him losing the Rush aura for his mechs or losing his "Discover a Mech" hero power. I just hate cards getting completely gutted and killing decks but adjustments are needed somewhere to make the meta more healthier
NOTHING IS OPPRESSIVE ENOUGH TO NERF. Can we all stop trying to nerf the most fun cards
The power level of Dr. Boom, Mad Genius was fine when the Death Knights were still around, but I think it is too strong for the post-rotation meta. I think though that the only nerf that would actually make a difference is not giving all mechs rush, but removing that property would likely make the card unplayable. Maybe it would be enough if only the first mech you play each turn gets rush? Or add "your mechs have rush" as a passive hero power to the pool of cycling hero powers.
Regarding Rogue, nerfing Raiding Party, EVIL Miscreant or Waggle Pick would help balance the current meta. However, the fact that Rogue's Basic and Classic cards are just a lot better than other classes' will introduce balance problems on every future rotation, so it's probably better to nerf one or more core cards instead. That's also in line with what they did to Druid.
Feel free to criticise the below, I have a thick skin (try and keep it constructive though)
Raiding Party - Is a bigger problem than Edwin VanCleef.
Myra's Unstable Element - Also needs nerfing, being able to draw your entire deck on the spot and still be able to form a board when you have literally 1 card in hand is broken.
EVIL Miscreant - Disagree, the problem isn't EVIL Miscreant it's the Lackey cards costing 1 mana, they should straight up cost 2 mana, not 1 mana.
Magic Carpet - It should have less Health, the only problem players face right now because of Magic Carpet is how tanky it is for the mana cost and effect it grants.
Leeroy Jenkins - a tough one to call, on the one hand, it's not that overpowered but when you introduce Waggle Pick into the equation, suddenly it becomes 20 damage for 12 Mana.
My own recommended nerfs?
Raiding Party increased to 5 mana (yep, it would basically kill the card but being able to target a specific weapon that makes the deck function the way it does for 3 mana while its combo enabled is busted)
Myra's Unstable Element - Hall of Fame - it's going to cause more problems in future expacs, deal with it now, not later.
Lackey Cards - Mana cost increased to 2
Magic Carpet - Health reduced to 3 (or 4, I still think 4 is too high)
Leeroy Jenkins - I have 2 suggestions for this, both are 'out there' in terms of crazy ideas
1. Leeroy Jenkins Dies after attacking - Keeps Leeroy's key function in place but removes the bounce effect without nerfing Waggle Pick or Shadowstep
2. If returned to your hand, attack reduced by 5.
The Lackeys are strong for 1 mana, but I think that is by design: you have to play a sub-par minion to get Lackeys in your hand and playing the Lackeys is the pay-off. For example with EVIL Cable Rat you're paying a significant cost to get a single Lackey. The problem with EVIL Miscreant is that combo is an easy condition to fulfill and a 1/5 turns out to be more useful than people had expected, so the cost isn't all that high for getting two Lackeys.
I like your "Leeroy dies after attacking" idea. It addresses the insane value Rogue can get out of him without making him unplayable. And it also fits the theme.
The whole point of lackeys was them costing one mana and having powerful effects... So making them 2 mana is honestly stupid and makes them useless
EVIL Miscreant IS a problem. It's too healthy (similar to Magic Carpet)to be removed turn 2-3 or sometimes even 4-5, by that time Rogue could have juggled it up to 3 times and got a crapton of lackeys.
I really like the idea of Leeroy Jenkins dying after attacking! it keeps the theme of Leeroy being reckless and just charging. A possible alternative would be that the two welp immediately attack Leeroy after Leeroy attacks. I think that would be quite funny to see as well hahahaha
Leeroy dying after attacking is the best idea for a nerf I've ever heard.
Hellllo, dust.
EDIT: really though, please leave Vancleef alone. this is why we have hex, silence etc. if you don't pack a silence or a hex or equivalent in a Eddy Meta, then that's not Eddies fault really. He's just doing his thing. There are very easy counters, which actually will completely destroy the rogues tempo if applied.
regarding what I think should be nerfed. I don't really know. mage seems really strong, but that's because I play a lot of control shaman so they steamroll me.
Maybe Mountain giant should cost a few more? That new spell they got is basically game over when it gets played as well. again though my perception is skewed as it's just based on the decks I play, so I wouldn't be comfortable calling for nerfs based on my limited vision.
Sorry all, correction made to the article. I poorly worded the part about Prep - it wasn't said to be buffed but rather the cost reduction was to be decreased to 2 (down from 3).
Lower waggle pick to 3 damage so it doesn't give free 3/3s the turn it's played and lowers its damage output. It's still a strong card but gets rid of some of the burst tempo the deck offers. It would do 6 damage instead of 8, and gives it less reach when removing minions. With a greenskin it would do 10 damage instead of 13, which i think would start to really matter.
Raiding Party to 4 mana. I think this nerf is optional and maybe not necessary, this might not need a nerf with the above nerf I suggested because it makes the package a bit less impactful and you can't do insane plays like prep>raiding party>6/6 Edwin/Evil miscreant
You could also consider nerfing Miscreants health to 4. The card already has a lot of value in it's combo so making it a little less sticky to buff with the lackeys would probably be fair. I feel like bumping it's mana up to 4 is too harsh on that card.
I think when a class like Rogue is strong, you start looking at so many cards and you're like "why the hell is sap so powerful?" and while sap is a super strong card, it only feels so powerful right now because of the amount of consistent burst Rogue are putting out. I really like the way the current tempo rogue plays, it's super fun but it's way too strong. I would like to nerf the cards in ways that makes them weaker but doesn't force you to just remove the nerf card and slap something else in.
Outside of Rogue. Dr. Boom/control warrior late game needs a nerf. that is a lot more tricky than just lowering the tempo of a tempo deck. You could consider changing the aura to "The first mech(s) you summon each turn have Rush" instead of all mechs. So you could use the hero power to get 3 1/1s with rush, or you could play a dude from hand with rush, but you wouldn't be able to just omega assembly and spam the board with rush dudes. A control deck shouldn't have the insane amounts of tempo late game that warrior has, the value is fine.
You could also consider dropping Omega Devestator's damage to 6. A 4 mana 4/5 with rush that has battlecry deal 10 damage is a bit insane. And with Dr. Boom/Omega assembly's mech generation, it's not uncommon to see this guy like 4 times in a game. It could still deal 10 damage to a dude if Dr. Boom is up, but at least you would have to trade the thing into whatever you were hitting instead of going 2-1 for cheap so consistently.
Conjurer's calling getting a mana bump is reasonable. It already has insane value with twin spell but the cheap cost allows you to play something and play it possibly twice all in one turn, and that is when it starts to feel bonkers.
Magic carpet to 4 mana or 1/5 stat line isn't a bad idea. That thing is cheap and sticky as hell and pretty oppressive against board decks.
Cards i'd like to be left alone:
Prep+Edwin - yes many Rogue decks use them but i feel like they're strong for class identity and many Rogue spells are overcosted because of prep so just randomly nerfing prep is not healthy. If you want to hall of fame prep, do it next year while simultaneously releasing some cheap and good Rogue spells. Edwin is only so strong right now because of the ammount of cheap resources you can generate in Rogue. Lowering their tempo makes him less backbreaking and he has his downsides.
Elekk- I don't actually care if this is nerfed because it's so greedy that it's generally wack
Hex- Leave shaman alone
yeah dude lowering the damage is a good call. I played wild pirate rogue last year, and we either used to have to play greenskin first to get the free taunts, or buff the weapon up (it usually meant playing greenskin)
it would be the same for tempo rogue in standard now. they would not be able to weapon and taunt up so fast, they'd have to play greenskin first, so it would delay them a turn.
Hmm... to me, the main takeaway from this post is that pro players have their idiosyncrasies, likes and dislikes, just like any other guy or gal. And these quirks mar or may be not justifiable. The simple fact that these people are "experts" on the matter doesn't mean they are impartial.
I think lackeys should cost 2 mana imo.
These are the nerfs that I think would make the game healthier and allow a lot more creative deck building. Open to suggestions of where I might have got it wrong though.
Barnes = Cost nerfed to 6 Mana with stat bump to 4/5
Dr Boom Mad Genius = Delivery Drone changed from Discover a Mech to Add a Random Mech To Your Hand
Brawl = Cost nerfed to 6 Mana
Raiding Party = Cost nerfed to 4 Mana
Edwin = Combo nerfed to Gain +2 +1
Waggle Pick = Stats change to 3 Attack / 3 Durability
Omega Devastator = Cost nerfed to 6 Mana
EVIL Miscreant = Cost nerfed to 4 Mana
Mountain Giant = Cost nerfed to 13 Mana
Sea Giant = Cost nerfed to 11 Mana
Elysianna = Cost nerfed to 10 Mana with stat bump to 9/9
Darkest Hour = Cost nerfed 8 Mana
Magic Carpet = Stats nerfed to 1/5
Leeroy Jenkins = Cost Nerfed to 7 Mana
Problem is if Blizz went on a comprehensive nerf to problem cards they would be refunding a LOT of dust and that's something they really, really don't want to do.