Mike Donais and Peter Whalen on Nerfs, Design, Early Kobolds Cards, and Cards that Didn't Make It
IGN's Cam Shea had a chance to talk with Mike Donais and Peter Whalen about how the Kobolds and Catacombs expansion has been progressing and what some cards looked like back during development.
Interview Recap
Below is our recap of the interview's most important points. We've also got some interesting cards that didn't make it or were transformed into different cards. Note the Rogue weapons which were going to be a part of a special Dual-Wield mechanic - it wasn't fully fleshed out.
Nerfs
- The team will be making a balance evaluation after the World Championship.
- The evaluation will look at how the ladder has been and what went down at the championship.
- There may be balance changes in February. (Ben Brode mentioned this previously)
Design
- Each expansion has a target of one or two (sometimes three) themes each class is going for.
- During internal testing, a lot of Cubelock was played.
- Powerful defensive options were important to the team which is why we see "a fair number" of them in Kobolds.
- When considering costs for powerful effects, the team looks at three different things.
- Similiar effects and how much they cost. Does the current effect have a downside or upside in comparison?
- How much play has the similar card seen in tournament decks the last four years of data?
- Where does the card need to be placed? How fun is it?
- If decks show up too much, they have to be careful about giving it too many new cards as players can get tired of seeing it.
- Cards like Barnes and Emperor Thaurissan are "fantastic to have in Standard", but not forever. It's good to push powerful decks.
- Mike Donais loves giving Rogues cards which they aren't sure how they're going to get used. "We'll let them figure it out, and hopefully it's not broken."
Meta
- Seeing Quest cards being used in different ways has "been really cool".
- Corridor Creeper raises a red flag when it comes to balance. Community feelings and data are both important in the evaluation.
- It's normal to see lots of powerful decks after the last set of a year due to there being more powerful cards in the rotation.
Dungeon Run
- One of the original pitches for King Togwaggle, the non-collectible mission version, disenchanted cards in his opponent's hand. It would not have been from anyone's actual collection, just their Dungeon Run deck!
Cards in Development
- Possessed Lackey was experimented with as "Battlecry: If you control a Demon, Recruit a Demon".
- Dark Pact cost 0 mana at one point.
- Carnivorous Cube comes from the team wanting to make another card in the same realm of Moat Lurker since Karazhan.
- Carnivorous Cube was originally called Gelatinous Trapezoid.
- Carnivorous Cube was tested a lot internally with Druid, Hunter, and Warlock.
- Rin, the First Disciple was much more complicated with her seals though there was always going to be five. They each had a different effect.
- The seal effects were: Deal Damage; Restore Health; Summon a Demon; "A couple other things".
- Rin's Azari, the Devourer originally was a 15/15 that could not be targeted. Testing proved people were not impressed with it which made them come up with the idea of deck destruction.
- A couple years ago they tried a version of Psychic Scream which put the minions into your own deck. It lead to Priests wanting to always play the fatigue game.
- Psychic Scream was originally named Run Away!
- One of the original concepts for the Rogue Legendary Weapon was being able to dual-wield two weapons somehow. They couldn't make it work how they wanted.
- Another version of Kingsbane had "Battlecry: Discover a card, everything you draw is a copy of that". This effect was also tried out on a Warrior Weapon.
- King Togwaggle at one point didn't have the random spell and at another had the effect happen on both Battlecry and Deathrattle. More on that later.
- Twilight's Call originally brought back any minion. It lead to crazy Malygos and Prophet Velen interactions.
- Lesser Diamond Spellstone, and its upgrades, originally didn't require resurrected cards to be unique. This lead to more Malygos and Velen problems.
Peter Whalen on King Togwaggle's Design
Quote from Peter WhalenI think King Togwaggle evolved a bunch as time went on. It started off as just “Battlecry: swap decks with your opponent,” and it turns out we really couldn't do that. There were some very much feel bad moments, and so we fixed it: “Battlecry and Deathrattle: swap decks with your opponent,” but then somebody Shadowstepped him and didn't let the other guy kill him, so we couldn't do that either. That lasted exactly one game, and involved Hemet [Jungle Hunter] as well. It didn't survive past that.
Then we tried a number of different things in that direction of “while this guy is in play, you each draw from your opponent's deck.” That was pretty cool. There was some cool stuff in there. Then, we had this one: “Give your opponent a spell to swap back.” We tried a certain number of cards from each deck, so like swap five cards from your deck for five cards from their deck, or 10. We tried a couple of different things in that space. That was interesting. Meant if you didn't have any cards in your deck, it didn't help you at all. So, it wasn't a huge problem with people playing Hemet, blowing up their deck, and then playing this, which was a problem with some of the other designs.
So, that was one that we iterated on a bunch, and I think it ends up in a cool place where it tells this really cool story about King Togwaggle who steals stuff, but as long as you pay him enough mana, he'll give it back. It's cool.
Peter Whalen on Cards Without a Home
Quote from Peter WhalenI think there are certainly cards that don't have a home yet. The Shaman Spellstone is very strong. I think the 2/2 in Warrior that gains a lot of armour is very powerful, just on its face value, but like a lot of things, it's very contextual. There are cards that are stronger in some meta games and weaker in other meta games. We see that with Y'shaarj, who saw very little play when Whispers of the Old Gods came out, and now sees a fair amount of play in a couple of different decks, and so I think there are definitely cards that, as the meta game shifts, we will definitely see things change.
They haven't really used the old concepts for any new cards so far.
wow
Awesome!
With this interview and Ben brode at the hct do you think before the interview there's a blanket don't ask about warrior. 😂
It's one of the best decks in the game but has an average winrate. The deck isn't a problem for players to play against due to the fact that it's not typically utilized to it's potential.
To give someone a fish to fight and the other one a machine gun to fight is unfair even when the one with the machine gun doesn't know how to use the mashine gun in the most effective way and shooting in the air like a moron instead of hitting his enemy.
Prophet velen will always be the reason why priests won’t get spells which will damage face and whackey gimmick spells instead
Damn
Apparently that would be a reason to HoF Velen, simply because it's limitting design space. There are several other cards, that have a similar role while some have already been hit with a nerf or have been put into the HoF.
If they wanted to put valen in the hof then malygos would have to go to. I think it would be a good idea to rotate these cards because they do not see much play as they are but they limit design space to much. But last rotation 2 legendarys went, and so if history repeats itself than the only legendarys to go would be 2 that are not a problem in meta decks, so I do not think they would do this.
I do not mean from cards that will reduce the cost or recruit a large minion, but I am mostly referring to cards that resurrect, because if they could not have "summon 4 minions that died this game" because valen would be a problem then if they rotated him they would still not be able to make those cards because of malygos.
I see where you are coming from, and I would agree to your point. Personally I think they will not rotate a class legendary because those ought to define the identity their respective classes.
I guess we will have to wait and see what comes up.
at the same time we literally have exactly that and maly is rarely the card people choose to cheat out.
Reading between the lines:
- Priest and Warlock are getting nerfs. (The evaluation will look at how the ladder has been and what went down at the championship.)
- It's probably Psychic Scream and Possessed Lackey. (Similiar effects and how much they cost. Does the current effect have a downside or upside in comparison?)
- Corridor Creeper is getting a nerf. (Corridor Creeper raises a red flag when it comes to balance.)
I think so too and I hope you are right. This whould gave the meta some fresh wind. This "control/combo meta" is way to stale for my taste.
Rin, the First Disciple would have actually been a much more enjoyable card had they gone with their original design, instead of the warlock equivalent of jade druids that fuck up your Bloodreaver Gul'dan. If the seals gave random benefits, like the various unidentified items we've already seen, it would even make the random factor a bit more interesting.
Also, by the time you get to Azari (if you even make it to Azari) the opponent's deck only has a couple of cards in it, so maybe a different functionality would have been nicer
Can't agree. Balance wise there's nothing wrong with Rin as she's been printed. If anything, she's not fast enough. Obviously, the meta has slowed down and made her viable. (I never would have called it, and said several times before K&C's release and even early meta days that she was shit. Weeell, I guess I was wrong.)
But frankly, Rin decks shouldn't be relying upon the demons summoned from the seals off of Gul'dan as it is. It's also a self-refilling, self-improving resource if you get the train rolling away. It goes from overcosted to fairly costed to undercosted on a fairly rapid basis. So really, you want to complain that you can't Rin, roll seals AND get back your 2-3 Doomguards? Nobody's going to be sympathetic.
Yiiiikes. Thank you for not printing that original incarnation of the Priest spellstone. That would have been terrifying for more reasons than just Maly/Velen.
i prefer the original Togwaggle
is there a Christmas tree behind the dagger.