Max McCall Talks About Combo Decks and Why They Can Be Problematic
Our friendly neighborhood Hearthstone developer Max McCall jumped on the forums again yesterday, sharing his thoughts about combo decks in the game. In short, they feel that while a combo deck might be a lot of fun for the person playing that deck, it isn't for the opponent, especially if those type of decks are very common on the ladder. Decks with the goal of minimizing interaction with your opponent and/or killing them instantly are not the type of decks they want to be on top of the meta, so they're careful with printing cards that make these type of decks too strong.
A lot of players disagree with him and think combo decks are some of the most fun and skill-intensive decks in the game. What do you think?
You can read his full thoughts below:
Quote from Max McCallHearthstone is fun because each game is a little different from the last. Combo decks make for very different types of games, where players can’t rely on their normal decision-making heuristics and have to reconsider their strategic approach to the game. So, in general, combo decks are good for Hearthstone because they add some texture to the ladder experience. But like any other deck, combo decks that become too popular cause issues.
When we make cards like Emperor Thaurissan and Counterfeit Coin, we’re aware that they tend to enable combo decks. We don’t usually set out to make a particular combo deck be a particular power level; we are always worried about missing and making a deck more powerful than we’d like – and that goes for any type of deck, not just combo decks - but that doesn’t mean that we don’t want any combo decks at all. We do want combo decks. We just want them at the same level that we want other decks.
Specific combo decks can be problems for the same reason that any other deck can be a problem: when a deck in Hearthstone gets too popular, you play against it so frequently that it stops being fun. Further, usually popular decks are powerful, so you are also likely to be losing more games than you win while also playing against the popular deck more often than you would like.
Powerful combo decks tend to exacerbate this problem because most combo decks aren’t trying to interact with their opponents on any axis that involves minions. It is cool when, once in a while, you play a game against a deck that is all card drawing and removal and you have to consider how you want to ration your threats instead of finding little victories in profitable trades. It is less cool when you start playing a substantial fraction of your games against “Frost Nova, Doomsayer, go” before getting Ice Lanced out of the game. Figuring out a good trade is more fun than making educated guesses about how your opponent will kill your minions over the next few turns.
I am not saying that some or all combo decks are inherently bad for Hearthstone. I am saying that when a deck is popular, it becomes less fun to play against. Popular combo decks have the further problem that they try to ignore opposing minions as much as possible, which is frustrating for most non-combo players.
This is true whether or not a deck is easy or hard to play, although the decks that are hard to play tend to be less popular because less skilled players don’t play them as often.
Also, saying that a combo deck is interactive because it has a bunch of removal is true only in the loosest sense of the word. Combo decks use their removal to try to reduce their interaction with their opponents as much as possible.
Cards are interactive when they generate strategic options for both players. Minions are interactive because their controller has options on how to leverage their threat and their opponent has options on how to remove it. Removal itself reduces the strategic options for both players: it reduces the amount of stuff in play that can be interacted with.
This isn’t to say that all removal is problematic – removal spells are very important for Hearthstone – but I see the idea of ‘this deck is interactive because it is really good at killing minions’ frequently and I wanted to challenge that assertion.
Most combo decks, in addition to trying to avoid interacting with minions, also try to avoid letting their opponent interact with them. The problem with OTKs isn’t so much ‘I was at 30, then I lost’ as much as it is ‘I was at 30, then I lost, and there wasn’t anything I could do about it.’ You can play a taunt minion against a Leeroy combo, but again, most combo decks are very good at killing minions, so the idea that a taunt minion will save you against a Miracle Rogue that’s drawn their whole deck is a stretch.
So, most combo decks try to avoid interacting with their opponents as much as possible, and then win in a way that is extremely difficult for their opponent to interact with in a meaningful way. It’s good when those types of decks pop up on ladder occasionally. But when those types of strategies are too popular and powerful, they are frustrating, and we nerf them.
When they are not popular, we tend to let them be. Usually they are less popular because they are less powerful; often they are less powerful because they have to interact with their opponent. For example, the Aviana-C’Thun combo has to play a lot of C’Thun minions, which facilitates interaction for both players. Combo decks that aren’t super popular or super powerful are great to have around; as I noted earlier, they do a lot to add variety to the ladder.
Mr "I've got the fun in my sights" was only a "good removal" 0_o although I'll concede lightbomb was but good Sludge Belcher was oppressive.
Pirates currently are retorted, but at lea is isn't as annoying as mech mage, or the old zoo. However this just may be me. I honestly hated the GvG/TgT meta so maybe I'm the one not being fair.
This time I really agree with what the design team is saying .
Having all your minions removed until the opponent meets his win condition is not fun or interactive .
The biggest problem was always the fact that combo decks tend to be very efficient at negating what you do on the board and it feel like there is nothing you can do to stop them .
Nope. There are tech cards like lothab and dirty rat to prevent that. Sadly team 5 is to incompetent to create more playable tech cards on purpose so they can't handle a meta with more that a balance Triangle :/
Dieing to freezemage at 15 hp is bad, but dying to druid combo at 14 was fine for 1,5 years because you could counter 2x innervate turn one? And the sad part is that the Mets back then was more enjoyable that this shit now. Sorry but hearthstone has so many problems at the moment and a deck like patrion could handle it easily and would create a skill-based meta game.
Try otk hunter. Pretty fun but you need emperor most of the time to win
I think that you are right about most combo decks you have allowed to come about being toxic if they were the main thing, but I think that combo decks should interact with the board, and it is possible to do so, patron was not toxic because it was insanely hard to play, it engaed in board itself but made it hard for the opponent to, it was toxic at high levels of play but in the current meta, if you literally just added patron warrior back into the meta now it would not even be op, if you allowed for once combo decks to dominate they would very quickly get countered, I don't mean not catch something like patron I mean design a strong combo deck that will dominate the meta, and people would find a counter and then the meta could divulge and be really cool. but when you only let combo decks exist instead ofcarefully planning one that is strong they will lways be toxic, but never as toxic as the current meta.
I still miss Patron combo.
I still miss Worgen combo.
I even miss Druid combo.
They're making their game for imbeciles who unable to play difficult decks.
OK, it's how they have all that money.
Patron warrior was braindead.Huhu I will let the opponent to develop a board and let him hope he will win with full hp and 30 armour then I will burst him down with 2 bersekers (which I still find them ridiculously strong).Combo druid was stupid.I will let my opponent to clear my board then I will play more ridiculous stuff and the opponent had to stay at 15 or more hp so he will not die.I admit that worgen warrior was hard to play,unlikely patron warrior,and I felt relaxed after I have a game against that deck.Patron warrior,combo druid,old miracle rogue are the degenerate kind of combo decks.That is what blizzard hate
Druid combo was NOT a skilled deck it was as easy as any other midrange deck
Imo, hearthstone should introduce more mechanisms that can interact with your opponent at his turn. Secrets like counterspell and ice block are good examples. But there are only 3 class have access to secret.
There are almost no counters to Battlecry effect also makes that game less interactive. Just imagine your opponent is at turn 6 and about to play mysterious challenger. You have no way to stop him pull out 5 secrets. The only counter they ever printed are so bad and almost unplayable.
It's made worse when you realize pirates only loses Sir Finley Mrrgglton while we lose the best healing in the game, tons of removal and good taunt minions.
You feel sorry for people who are happy with the direction of a game they are actively playing, while you petulantly boycott that game and hold onto your hope of something the developers are explicitly, unequivocally telling you they will not do?
OK ...
This article sounds like it is more focused on the current miracle rogue variant that uses Questing Adventurer. When all the rogue needs to do is draw a Gadgetzan Auctioneer, and save all its low cost spells to draw the entire deck. Its a relatively easy combo to pull off since its likely that you will draw a Conceal at some point and then just sap whatever your opponent plays to go face. There are not many classes that can do anything to avoid this damage.
Yes, it's easy peasy... easiest deck in HS or entire card-world, np...
midrange-decks needs so much skill...
To clarify my original post, as it appears I did not word my original opinion in the way i had intended. I was not inciting that the miracle rogue deck is "easy" to play. Only that using the "combo" aspect of it was simpler then most other current itterations of other combo decks. Obviously there are ton's of factors that go into each game, and as for any combo deck to be successful you still have to draw the right cards in order to complete it. I don't hate on miracle rogue anymore then any other combo deck, I was just saying that the post made by McCall seemed to be pointing out the frustrations that come from playing successful miracle rogue decks, which is the strategy to get a big body on the board, either a Questing Adventurer or Edwin VanCleef and then conceal for face damage. Sure I can put a taunt up to stop it, just as easily as the rogue can play a sap the next turn to negate my play. I was never inciting that miracle rogue was unstoppable, only that once those minions are stealthed, there are not many counters that can be done to remove them from the board. You cited a few of them, twisting nether or dragonfire potion(assuming the questing adventurer or vancleef are small enough to be removed by these spells). However, most classes outside of Priest or Warlock don't have anything to deal with them unless they tech into certain stealth removal minions.
TLDR: If you want to play a combo deck, be sure it involves minion combat. Blizzard only allows zero minion interaction when you play Turn 5 lethal face decks.
I'm playing Eternal while wait new changes on Hearthstone. It has a great mechanic of interaction between players :)
Hell yeah brother. It blows HS out of the water easily!
I can only hope that Max was high on drugs when he made this statement. I disagree with almost everything he said. Another clueless Hearthstone developer.