Max McCall Talks About Combo Decks and Why They Can Be Problematic
Our friendly neighborhood Hearthstone developer Max McCall jumped on the forums again yesterday, sharing his thoughts about combo decks in the game. In short, they feel that while a combo deck might be a lot of fun for the person playing that deck, it isn't for the opponent, especially if those type of decks are very common on the ladder. Decks with the goal of minimizing interaction with your opponent and/or killing them instantly are not the type of decks they want to be on top of the meta, so they're careful with printing cards that make these type of decks too strong.
A lot of players disagree with him and think combo decks are some of the most fun and skill-intensive decks in the game. What do you think?
You can read his full thoughts below:
Quote from Max McCallHearthstone is fun because each game is a little different from the last. Combo decks make for very different types of games, where players can’t rely on their normal decision-making heuristics and have to reconsider their strategic approach to the game. So, in general, combo decks are good for Hearthstone because they add some texture to the ladder experience. But like any other deck, combo decks that become too popular cause issues.
When we make cards like Emperor Thaurissan and Counterfeit Coin, we’re aware that they tend to enable combo decks. We don’t usually set out to make a particular combo deck be a particular power level; we are always worried about missing and making a deck more powerful than we’d like – and that goes for any type of deck, not just combo decks - but that doesn’t mean that we don’t want any combo decks at all. We do want combo decks. We just want them at the same level that we want other decks.
Specific combo decks can be problems for the same reason that any other deck can be a problem: when a deck in Hearthstone gets too popular, you play against it so frequently that it stops being fun. Further, usually popular decks are powerful, so you are also likely to be losing more games than you win while also playing against the popular deck more often than you would like.
Powerful combo decks tend to exacerbate this problem because most combo decks aren’t trying to interact with their opponents on any axis that involves minions. It is cool when, once in a while, you play a game against a deck that is all card drawing and removal and you have to consider how you want to ration your threats instead of finding little victories in profitable trades. It is less cool when you start playing a substantial fraction of your games against “Frost Nova, Doomsayer, go” before getting Ice Lanced out of the game. Figuring out a good trade is more fun than making educated guesses about how your opponent will kill your minions over the next few turns.
I am not saying that some or all combo decks are inherently bad for Hearthstone. I am saying that when a deck is popular, it becomes less fun to play against. Popular combo decks have the further problem that they try to ignore opposing minions as much as possible, which is frustrating for most non-combo players.
This is true whether or not a deck is easy or hard to play, although the decks that are hard to play tend to be less popular because less skilled players don’t play them as often.
Also, saying that a combo deck is interactive because it has a bunch of removal is true only in the loosest sense of the word. Combo decks use their removal to try to reduce their interaction with their opponents as much as possible.
Cards are interactive when they generate strategic options for both players. Minions are interactive because their controller has options on how to leverage their threat and their opponent has options on how to remove it. Removal itself reduces the strategic options for both players: it reduces the amount of stuff in play that can be interacted with.
This isn’t to say that all removal is problematic – removal spells are very important for Hearthstone – but I see the idea of ‘this deck is interactive because it is really good at killing minions’ frequently and I wanted to challenge that assertion.
Most combo decks, in addition to trying to avoid interacting with minions, also try to avoid letting their opponent interact with them. The problem with OTKs isn’t so much ‘I was at 30, then I lost’ as much as it is ‘I was at 30, then I lost, and there wasn’t anything I could do about it.’ You can play a taunt minion against a Leeroy combo, but again, most combo decks are very good at killing minions, so the idea that a taunt minion will save you against a Miracle Rogue that’s drawn their whole deck is a stretch.
So, most combo decks try to avoid interacting with their opponents as much as possible, and then win in a way that is extremely difficult for their opponent to interact with in a meaningful way. It’s good when those types of decks pop up on ladder occasionally. But when those types of strategies are too popular and powerful, they are frustrating, and we nerf them.
When they are not popular, we tend to let them be. Usually they are less popular because they are less powerful; often they are less powerful because they have to interact with their opponent. For example, the Aviana-C’Thun combo has to play a lot of C’Thun minions, which facilitates interaction for both players. Combo decks that aren’t super popular or super powerful are great to have around; as I noted earlier, they do a lot to add variety to the ladder.
Though HS could be a pretty good visual novel... if it weren't about hard buff orc boys slapping each other.
Ofc bad players are upvoting against OTK decks, that doesn't surprise me.
blablabla... I don't say anything but seems like.... blablabla
To summarize: we don't want combo decks because they are frustrating to play against if you were a noob or don't understand how card games work. So we realize that the best way to continue with the game is making it easier to play (for example, curving minions) and delete all the 'high skill-high reward' decks not to new players quitting the game :)
In Team 5's minds it is much more fun and interactive to get punched down by pirates on turn 5 than playing a really cool 10 mana combo on turn 20. But with the loss of Reno, the fact that you cannot play control decks until jade idol rotates out and with all the cool combo cards out (Aviana, Emperor, Ice lance, PO, Anyfin) there is no risk of any other decks than dumb curvestone to turn 6, maybe turn 7 unless Blizzard prints more broken 1 drops.
If you've ever played Control Priest versus Freeze Mage, you'll understand what he's talking about. Might as well give up as soon as you see Jaina drop that first Loot Hoarder. You'll build up a board and get her low, only to have her Ice Block, FN+Doomsayer, then Alex+Burst to end the game. There's not really much you can do about it; you're going to lose. Your only possible win scenarios are if the Freeze Mage player is bad, or if you get lucky with a SW:Pain on a Doomsayer at a bad time (and they don't have Ice block), or if you happen to be packing massive burst healing (which is redundant in most other matchups) you might have a chance. But what usually happens is you don't really have enough burst to finish them off so eventually they draw enough cards to OTK you.
Patron was better especially after the Warsong Commander nerf. It was almost pointless to pack AOE against pre-nerf Patron because you would never get a chance to play it before you got OTK'd.
Most other combo decks don't really involve skill, they're just "survive, draw a bunch of cards, drop Thaurissan, OTK".
If you have lots of really powerful Combo/OTK decks, it just forces reactive decks out of the meta.
Sometimes I wonder if ppl in here read the article at all.
They are not against combo decks at all ,only the oppressive ,dominating,OTKish kind of stuff.
Blizzard is a company that wants to make some money, that's fair right? What if they didn't nerf Patrons? Why would anyone bother buying packs if new content doesn't even has it's chance to shine because you get OTKed ,or your new Legendary gets Saped ,and you get bursted afterwards?
And yes I know the argument that combo stuff is skill heavy or newer players don't face it at the bottom of the ladder ,but if a combo deck gets T1 , popular streamers will play it a lot,wich could lead into people thinking its busted and specific decks feel ccompletely helpless against a refined combo deck.
And again we would see ppl riot about how they can't do shit,and why they should continue playing the game when everything they play gets ignored? Heeeyy, aggro also ignores my stuff ! And that's the point you CAN tech against aggro,even a average player can counter aggro pretty easy ,with combo it's not possible most of the time .Also I can imagine aggro is easier to fix if its to dominant.
I think that these two statements are not mutually exclusive, so to claim that it is a "disagreement" is the wrong term.
For instance: I don't like losing to non-interactive decks much, but I will concede that they could well be fun to pilot as well as requiring high skill.
They should definitely not be too strong because else HS will just devolve into a game of two people playing solitaire against each other. And yes, Aggro being too strong has the same effect and is therefore equally bad.
90% og player here hate combo, aggro & jade deck because they cannot play greedy control deck. If control meta really happen, every games just decide who run out removal, card draw and who have more legendary.
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Right now there are mostly 2 templates one the ladder: Pirate and Reno (followed by 3 lesser templates: Miracle, Dragon and Jade)
If a combo deck can defeat a Pirate Aggro deck, the aggro player is probably AFK.
Against Reno, it depends if it is a 2TK deck or a OTK deck. Against the former, Reno has a big advantage while against the later, depends on who can draw better, but a small advantage to the combo player.
So Combo get's absolutely wrecked by Aggro, and has only a 50/50 against Reno. Probably get's beaten by Midrange Aggro too, and can only reliably kill Jade Druid. How is combo a problem in the current Meta AT ALL? The only thing I can hope is the Blizzard is pre-emptively nerfing combo decks because they are going to susbantially buff control (which is hard countered by combo), but if the Meta stays the same, with Aggro or Reno (not that I have a problem with Reno decks. Or Aggro, provided they come in different variaties (Pirate/Murloc/Mech/Standard Hunter/ Standard Shaman) and aren't 40% of the Ladder.
We're not just talking about the current meta. We're talking about the future and the past as well. In the past, combo has been a problem. Its likely to come up again when Jade Golems take over the meta once the Pirate package is nerfed.
Yeah, as I said in my final paragraph, the only reason nerfing Combo could be accepted is if Control becomes more common in the new meta and aggro is taken down a notch. Still, I think it's much better to make cards able to disrupt combo decks (Dirty Rat and the like) than just taking 3 or 4 combo cards away from standard.
Well, Im still gonna play combo on Wild so fine by me.
I understand what you mean, but really that is arguing that printing cards like Acidic Swamp Ooze, Kezan Mystic, Eater of Secrets, Hungry Crab and other "Meta police" cards is a bad idea. If you simply remove good cards from combo decks they ARE nerfed, but if you add counter cards instead, then they work fine unless they become so prevelent that people start teching in the cad counter's to reduce their power. Those 4 cards, plus others like the Silence cards, the Troggs (Burgly Bully, Troggzor, Stonesplinter Trogg and Burly Rockjaw Trogg) Second-Rate Bruiser, Cyclopian Horror, Tanaris Hogriders, Streetwise Investigator, Sideshow Spelleater, Big Game Hunter, the Anti-deathrattle cards (Defias Cleaner, Lil' Exorcist and Scarlet Purifier), Blood Knight, Sabouteur, Nerub'ar Weblord and Light's Champion are all cards meant to make sure no deck goes over the top. If ever Murlocs, spell heavy(in wild only), Stealth, Inspire or Demon decks get too strong, people will run these cards and those decks will be somewhat more under control.
Exactly. All I do is grind out quests and do the one tavern brawl game to get a pack. I make sure I'm at least rank 18 to get some end of season stuff, but that's all I do now. There is no skill in playing the decks right now.
Yep they only like hulk smash. That's why they made Kazaks.
I'm sooo fucking done with Blizzard trying to tell is how combo decks are bad.
All i ever see here is bashing on aggro decks and asking for more skill intensive decks. All we ever get is the exact oposite.
The only reason for this i can think of is that there are in fact more people who like getting free wins with brain-dead decks, and most people who like to play skill intensive decks have quit the game while the few who are left are now the vocal minority (aka most Heartpwn users).
yeah go on and push the patatoe Aggro Decks more. Warriors killing you by turn 4-5 without ever considering trading. Thats fun right??? If they would just Patch the game every month they can allow powerful combo decks because if it becomes broken they just fix it when the new Season begins.
Further the jade Mechanic is the worst they could have made. It just doesnt allow any classic control deck to be viable.
I really miss the gvg meta where aggro, midrange and control were playable.
yeah because piloted shredder on 4 and sludge belcher on 5, and then curving off with Dr. Boom into Rag was SOOOO fun.
Take of the nostalgia glasses, this is much better than back then.
It was more fun! Games at least lasted to 8, and even though it was mostly curve based there was counterplay. There were good board clears like Lightbomb, good neutral removal with Owl and BGH, big squishy taunts like Deathlord and Sludge Belcher, and Antique Healbot was a good enough neutral heal. Aggro was slower and beatable, Midrange was an archetype that could actually exist, control lists were fun to play, and Combo wasn't the worst thing ever. Sure, turn 7 Dr. Boom was kind of annoying, but BGH was good counterplay. It's not about nostalgia goggles, the game wasn't all that bad. Hell, before rotation the most oppressive decks were midrange, and even if the skill floor was the ceiling it was at least a bit winnable, and games lasted more than 6 turns.