Game Designer Max McCall Talks About Shamans
Max McCall, a Game Designer on the Hearthstone team had some things to say about the current state of Shamans in the game.
To summarize:
- There are three different types of Shaman decks currently popular, but they are not different enough to feel like that when playing against them.
- Dragon decks like Priest and Warrior as well as Reno decks are good against them. If you want to win versus a Shaman, play Reno Warlock.
- In general, about 1 in 4 of your opponents is a Shaman, which is kind of boring and they are not fine with it.
- The problem with Shaman is not that they are winning too often.
- Shamans are more popular than they like, and if it continues to be this way they might do something about it.
Read his full thoughts below:
Quote from Max McCallWe are keeping an eye on Shaman decks and we’ll see how they develop. We say that a lot. Here is what it means:Okay, so: there are a few different kinds of Shaman decks:
- There are aggressive Shaman decks that play a Pirate package and no Jade cards
- There are slightly slower Shaman decks that play Pirates and Jade cards
- And there are even slower Shaman decks that play the Jade cards but no Pirates
All of those decks are strong, but they are all weak against Dragon decks (like Priest and Warrior) and Reno decks. If you’re tired of losing to Shamans, play Reno Warlock. In some ways, that is fine: Shamans are popular, but there are strategies that are good against them.
In other ways, it is less fine. Collectively, Shamans are popular; you play against a Shaman about one game in four. Now, the reason that a ‘balanced’ metagame is desirable isn’t because ‘balanced’ metagames don’t have dominant strategies. They are desirable because you play against different classes more frequently, which means you have a wider variety in the types of Hearthstone games that you play. Playing Shaman isn’t a dominant strategy – again, they lose to plenty of decks – but it is still boring to play against the same class over and over again.
And even though the Shaman decks have distinct differences, those differences are small. If you played against Warlocks one game in four, but half of your Warlock opponents were playing slow Reno control decks and the other half were playing aggressive minion decks, those games would feel very different from one another. On the other hand, when you lose to Tunnel Trogg, Totem Golem, Feral Spirit three times in a row, it doesn’t matter if some of those Shamans had a Pirate package or if one of them had Jade cards. Your games still felt very homogenous and weren’t that fun especially the third time around.
The point I am trying to make is ‘classes can be problematic even though they do not win too often.’ Shamans don’t win too often. Right now, they are more popular than we’d like. If they are too popular for too long, we will do something about it, as we did when we nerfed them a couple of months ago. However, it takes time to assess whether or not a class will cause the game to feel too homogenous for too long. On release, Mech Mage and recently Pirate Warrior were more popular than Shamans have ever been – but only for a few weeks, then people discovered alternative strategies and the decks became less popular. Because we know that Shamans have weaknesses, we hope that those strategies will become more popular and drive down Shaman popularity a bit so that you play against more classes more often.
We are going to keep evaluating Shaman popularity in the near future, and if we don’t like what we see, we will change something about the metagame. Perhaps we will change a card. Perhaps we will see Shaman popularity fall and not have to step in at all. Perhaps we will wait to introduce a new set and see if that creates the metagame change we want. Either way, it is a thing we are actively concerned about and paying attention to.
People play a lot of chaman because pirate warrior is boring as hell. I tried, really. After 10 games I'm ZzzzZZzzz.
Developers,
You are tracking Shamans (and probably every other class as well), and say you don't like the fact they are too represented in the game. "We will continue tracking Shamans, and if people don't adapt to strategic counters, we will do something about it in the future".
When? When saying such a thing, please tell us when the deadline is you're imagining. If the popularity doesn't change in 2 weeks you'll change it? 2 months? 2 years? Without such a date or further information on what you're imagining as a fine balance (exactly 11,1% of matches is against Shaman? Only 1 is 6 games against Shaman?), you're making empty promises.
Best of luck though.
Actually, it says:
Basically, that means they will again, maybe introduce a new set, and again "see if that creates the metagame change we want."
It's just maybes and perhapses, no dates or deadlines. For now, forecast remains endless observing.
And if it doesn't? Just 'observe and maybe we'll release another set' all over again?
I think you have it a bit backwards; you forget that the reason that shaman is at the top of the tier rankings is because it has the highest win rate across all levels, not just because they "say its the best". Pirate warrior is #2.
So the #1 win rate deck (aggro shaman) is the the most played deck and the #2 win rate deck (pirate warrior) is the second most played. That is absolutely to be expected. What would be weird is if the 2 strongest decks were somehow not being played the most.
Salt protectors do not defend them, if they can't make equal cards for each class and some only a shit bunch of playable cards, no, worshiping their job is not in place. I'm player who doesn't play that "what majority does" so I really do not care about their premade meta decks in expansions. When I play, I build my own unique deck, otherwise it wouldn't be fun to play this grindy game. Saying good things about bad game won't make it great by itself. So when Dev team does good job, they can't reap salt for it, otherwise they always would. I know I will be downvoted but at least see my point.
On a side note, now is the best time to farm your golden portrait before shaman gets nerfed to oblivion.. At least from how I see things, playing the most efficient deck type for each meta is the fastest way to get them all golden, for those that are interested in them.
I'm old enough to remember a time before LoE when Shaman had it's own tier below Tier 4. Shaman was bad for a long time and I hope that it never gets that bad ever again.
Yeah, shaman used to be terrible. But I'm so tired of them right now that i would agree to delete this class if they could balance all other classes. Seriously, shaman is the strongest class for almost an entire year.
If it's too popular but not winning too much, logically that means people play it because it's more fun. That doesn't seem like a reason for a nerf, it seems like a reason to make other classes more fun.
People tend to play Shaman because it is decent against most decks, and generally fast enough to play to grind the ladder.
Max,
Thank You for communicating. I can appreciate your concern over shaman, I don't share your concern but I have confidence in whatever your decisions will be and I appreciate that you guys are actively trying to make ladder a better place. Good luck and we are along for the ride. With the ladder in its current stat I am enjoying arena more.
I would strongly recommend having a rotating classic set of cards that pairs with blizzard selected wild cards. That would shake up the meta every quarter of a year. (you could try it out with tavern brawl)
Again thank you for talking to the community. Have a nice day.
"If they are too popular for too long, we will do something about it..."
No you won't. Blizzard has NEVER made timely adjustments. In fact, changing the problem NOW would be a GROSS mistake, considering the bulk of the problem rotates out very soon. You even mention the problem...
"On the other hand, when you lose to Tunnel Trogg, Totem Golem..."
These were cards made to help combat aggressive starts in the GVG/Naxx era -- Shielded Minibot, Leper Gnome, Abusive Seargeant, and many more chargers. The bulk of those aggressive cards were nerfed or rotated out at the PRIOR to the start of last year's Standard season. Yet, Totem Golem and Tunnel Trogg were untouched. Were you really surprised that Agro Shaman became the best deck from the get-go?
And the deck that came up to challenge them was ... Dragon Warrior, which reigned supreme for most of last summer. It also had a grossly overstatted 2 drop that was made in the Shielded Minibot era (Alex's Champ).
Here we are a year+ down the road -- and you're honestly surprised that Pali and Hunter are the bottom two classes, and Shaman and War had an incredible year?
P.S. People also pointed out that you didn't supplement Hunter and Pali's loss of early game -- while leaving Shaman and Warrior's early game intact. But that's not even the WORST PART OF YOUR DUMB-HEADED DESIGN DECISIONS -- you've been SUPPORTING Shaman and Warrior EARLY GAME THAT ENTIRE TIME!!!
(Spirit Claws, Maelstrom Portal, the entire Pirate package, Bash, Blood to Ichor, the list goes on...)
You literally gutted two classes. Didn't compensate them with anything. Didn't bother to tone down the early game cards that were remnants of the previous more aggressive season, and in addition, gave them EVEN more early game.
And you are just pointing this out now...
"...as we did when we nerfed them a couple of months ago."
1) Uh, let's talk timeliness again. Once again, a nerf that happened about a year late.
2) Pretty much everyone pointed out that this was a Shaman BUFF. Because the nerf included nerfing other classes ability to deal with Shaman as well.
3) It was also IMMEDIATELY followed (weeks) by giving Shaman Spirit Claws and Maelstrom Portal.
This response is the most FLUFFY piece I've seen in awhile. It's literally the type of comment that could have been made a year and a half ago.
More and more the problem is seeming to just be that the community is really bad. You defend a game you enjoy because you feel it isn't that bad and you're apparently a diehard fanboy. You insult Blizzard for making a few mistakes and you're just being really salty. Design team starts being more vocal, people insult them for doing anything wrong, saying that they know better than the actual design team. Design team is quiet, people complain about them never listening to the community. If it's anything in between then they get both problems. People need to just stop complaining about everything for once.
Preach!
But you know it's pretty sad that they can't figure out more than 3 similar class decks or even less. In addition even some classes have hard to play ladder, at this point, community knows better what to do with the game.
But what about evolve shaman???
"There are three different types of Shaman decks currently popular, but they are not different enough to feel like that when playing against them"
Because there's a set of Shaman cards, particularly early game Shaman cards, that are so powerful they are mandatory inclusions in every single Shaman deck.
Every Shaman can start out with tunnel trogg and totem golem, not giving you any information about what kind of deck they are.
Also, Shaman is going to be obliterated when the next Standard rotation happens because it will be losing these cards.
Not really mandatory. New Control-Evolve Shaman are doing kinda fine and they don't play that early game.