Ben Brode on Classic, Formats, F2P Legend, and Asks a Community Question
Earlier today, we posted an article which brought to attention Ben Brode's comments on possibly rotating cards from the Classic set into the Wild format. He has since come out to address concerns some players have with it and to open up the conversation. We feel it's important to highlight, from Ben:
- Classic is the most powerful set in the game.
- Nerfs to a few Classic cards still keeps the "evergreen" set stable.
- The Classic set introduces players to the game and lays down generic Warcraft flavor.
- Standard is designed more for players who like to see a fresh meta whereas Wild will change less often.
- Charge was nerfed due to the Grimy Goons mechanic being added in Gadgetzan.
- New players should continue to be able to reach legend after the changes as F2P players are still able to reach Legend after all the 2016 nerfs.
- Not every card in the game is targeted for competitive play.
Ben Asks: Do you prefer some evergreen cards to be nerfed, rotated to wild, or kept in Standard even if it results in a staler meta?
Quote from Ben BrodeOur intention is to keep Basic and Classic evergreen. This does have severe disadvantages if cards from Classic end up making Standard fail at its goal of being fresh each year. It's feedback we've been hearing since the introduction of Standard: 'This isn't enough - we will eventually end up in a stale Standard without additional changes.' And we've always said that we didn't consider our work here 'done'. If Standard is at risk for becoming stale thanks to the evergreen sets, we'll consider additional nerfs. This isn't the first time we've said this, and we said it even before Standard launched. We've reiterated it over the past year: http://www.pcgamesn.com/hearthstone/hearthstone-standard-2017-nerfsAssuming both avenues resulted in full dust refunds of the affected cards, would people prefer:
- Nerfs
- Rotation to Wild (like Old Murk Eye)
- Staler Meta in Standard
Please leave the Classic Legendaries Alone
I should add this is a general question about all Classic cards and not specifically about Legendaries. We're not sure which cards would be the right ones to target, if any, just yet. (Source)
Quote from Ben BrodeJust create a Core Set finally.
We have a core set - it's called Classic. Is there something you're pitching that Classic isn't doing for us? (Source)The entire point of classic was to have a stable base set on top of the basic set.
There are close to 400 cards in Basic and Classic. Nerfing a few of them, or moving them to Wild, still keeps a stable evergreen set. Also, that isn't the entire point of Classic. It introduces players to the game at a slightly lower complexity level. It lays a baseline for generic Warcraft flavor (Hogger, Mukla, etc). (Source)Now you are admitting that retaining classic was a mistake, and instead of rotating it out. We are just going change cards and bend it to where it is no longer a complete set by rotating out random cards and... what!? Just rotate Classic out!
We believe there are real benefits to an evergreen basic and classic set. What we are talking about is very similar to the 12 nerfs we made when Standard launched, to help it succeed in its goals. Standard needs to be fresh each year. (Source)Blizzard doesn't like that F2P players are using classic/basic cards all the time and when making their decks so they want to nerf those cards to oblivion in order to force them to spend money/gold on adventures/expansions pack.
That's just not true. Some players like it when Hearthstone has a fresh meta, where you can explore new deck types. It's one of two reasons we introduced the Standard Format (the other was making sure new players wouldn't have to collect every card ever made to be competitive). Wild is going to change a lot less often. Some players like that too. But we have a commitment to keep Standard fresh and ever-changing. We've been hearing a lot of feedback that Classic and Basic as they currently stand are a real threat to that. (Source)And then when F2P players finally found a way to reach Rank 1 with a cheap OTK Warrior deck, they decide to nerf Charge while saying "omg guiz u have no idea how gud dis iz!!!11".
I see you took the time to look up my exact quote! :) We nerfed Charge (the spell) because we knew the upcoming Grimy Goons mechanic in combination with Enraged Worgen and Charge was not really fair or fun. There have always been F2P players at Legend, and there have continued to be since that change. (Source)Almost all cards that get nerfed (or "changed" as Blizzard likes to put it) never gets played again.
Maybe you're intentionally exaggerating, but you can count 'em and it's not "almost all". And not every card is targeted at competitive play. We do intentionally make bad cards. Here's a video, if you're curious about some of the reasons why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ioY1KO79A (Source)love how you're trying to put out the fire created by greed :) it's not working to well though, why not just be honest & tell everyone you are rotating out good core cards because you want new players to pay up or be 100% irrelevant? :) why lie about it? "fresh"? gimmi a break.
We did this in 2016 when we nerfed 12 classic cards and it made a huge difference in how much the meta was able to change with the release of Old Gods (instead of just continuing to be Druid Combo). New players were able to reach legend without spending money after that change, and I expect that will be continue to be true if we change a few more cards in 2017. (Source)I don't understand why can't they just buff cards? What is so drastically different that they can nerf cards but they can never buff anything?
If you're curious about some of the challenges and other thoughts about buffing bad cards, I made a video a while back about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1ioY1KO79ARIP any good cards in classic.
Classic is by far the most powerful set. Nerfing 12 cards in 2016 didn't change that. A few more in 2017 probably won't either. (Source)
not possible O_O
Nerfing for sure! It's really important to have a permanent consistent set that will always be there, both for flavour and for setting an identity for the classes (can you imagine Druid without innervate and wild growth?). But i still think that neither of those options are the answer here, since everyone is pretty much used to the classic cards, and it's the crazy powerful 1-drops that keep coming out that make it for a really aggressive and obvious meta. Just stop printing 1-drops for a few expansions and design more control-heavy stuff.
Blizzard never said classic was gonna remain unchanged. Just stay in the format. Expecting to keep broken cards that limit the design space they have FOREVER is just a bad move. If blade furry was neve merged, then rogue will be guaranteed to get bad weapons in the future, changing the perma-stealth on that on card was a great way to free up design space, because certain cards under perma stealth would be complelty unfair, lastly, the Druid nerfs further increased design space, because of the combo and ancient of lore, Druid was already really oppressive, meaning no good cards could really be made for them, merging that gives Druid more future as well as stops every separate person from dying to a grove of trees.
I think I see where Blizzard wants to go with this game. They want the classic set to be the building blocks of this game but they don't want them to be the "core" cards of a deck. They want the core cards to be expansion/adventure cards such that the flavor is new each year and they get to sell more packs.
For example, tempo mage is probably in the direction that Blizzard likes. The core card of that deck, Flamewaker, is an adventure card. Many classic cards are used to complement the deck but the uniqueness and competitiveness of that deck comes from Flamewaker, which rotates. So when Flamewaker rotates out, things will be different and Blizzard can print some other powerful card to make mages go in a new direction. Secret paladin, mech mage, jade druid (and many other decks) are in the same boat - the core cards rotate, so these archetypes come and go, and the meta is kept fresh.
Miracle, on the other hand, is probably something Blizzard does not like. The core cards in that deck are mostly classic, and it's really the same thing year after year. In that sense, it does limit Blizzard's design space - they can't give a stale archetype more power and make it live longer.
I actually sympathize with Blizzard's position. Standard should be fresh each year because HS would otherwise get stale. I just hope they execute their plans in a fluid manner and not screw things up.
I do agree with you that blizzard probably dislikes miracle rogue. However, I currently see it as impossible to nerf their classic set, if the core of miracle rogue was to be nerfed, Rogue would simply fall in terms of a class. The other sub-archetypes of rogue (burgle, and stealth) are both too flawed to even exist in a competitive environment. Burgle has little to no counter play to it as the cards you can get can either be game breaking (arch mage, rag light lord, grom etc) or completely useless (freezing potion, shadow word horror, mana geode). While the stealth mechanic (which has been pushed with cards like shadow rager, and shadow sensei) can maybe see play. They run the risk of being either completely busted (how much can you do a stealth minnon etc) or completely unreliable in terms of consistency.
Either way rogue is similar to mage, your goal is to deal a massive amount of minion damage before using burn to close out the game. With Rouge, these cards include leeroy/cold blood/ evis. If they nerfed anything into unplayability (which seems to be blizzards nerf habits take blade flurry for example). I'd honestly prefer they allow the class to exist without touching on it's classic set.
It's not as bad as you think. The standard classic nerf hit druid pretty badly, yet druid survived via C'thun druid, yogg druid, maly druid, and now jade druid. Token and ramp have always been there, too.
You have to realize that Blizzard can print as many unfair cards for one class as they want. Shaman does not use many classic cards right now because they got a lot of op cards in expansion/adventures. If Blizzard nerfs rogue's classic cards, the class will be weak for maybe one expansion, and then it will get op cards just like shaman.
Good point you got there .
IMO there is a much simpler solution for making this "fresh game" idea possible than nerfing or rotating classic card out .
All they have to do is print powerful cards for each class in the new expansions . If rogue would get shaman quality board clears, heals and taunts from expansion I think many players would play that over miracle .
The problem is when an expansion fails to give powerful cards to all classes, they look at classic set to compete with others and if the classic set is also bad than, well done Blizzard, that class is eliminated from the game until future expansions .
This is what is happening now to hunter and paladin, because the expansion failed to give them powerful cards.
Almost all cards that get nerfed (or "changed" as Blizzard likes to put it) never gets played again.
And the ones that do are called "Gadgetzan Auctioneer."
Excluding the first patch after alpha, 02 oct 2013, that changed 53 cards, nerfed cards that returned:
- Flame Imp
- Unleash the hounds
- Blizzard
- Frost Nova
- Defender of Argus
- Novice Engineer
- Sylvanas Windrunner
- Dark Iron Dwarf
- Abusive Sargeant
- Eaglehorn Bow
- Leeroy Jenkins
- Soulfire
- Gadgetzan Auctioneer
- Knife Juggler
- Execute
- Rockbiter Weapon
The thing is, the changes Blizzard makes have not been very consistent. Sometimes they just increase the cost by 1 or change 1 point of the stats and the card remains relevant afterwards (basically all of the cards you listed). Sometimes they made the card pointless by increasing the cost too much, reducing the stats too much, or eliminating the highlight of the card (buzzard, keeper of the grove, ancient of lore, etc.).
I am not happy with the current state of Hearthstone. So I log in, do my dailies, log out so I don't annoy myself. Some of you guys should try the same. (I actually have a little bit of hope Blizzard someday changes the formats and stop these nonsense nerfs and nerf cards that really need it.)
Sorry man but can you more explain how the rotation of one or more cards can impact the profit of future expansion? I don't get it at all.
Where are you getting the idea that he said that the "rotation of one or more cards can impact the profit of future expansion"? He's talking about "all cards" in a set. Cards don't rotate one by one. Then of course if you actually still question, when those dusts accumulates, some people don't need to buy packs anymore.
Honestly, if thy start nerfing more of the good standard cards that might make me quit Hearthstone for good...
I don't play that much anymore so i don't have all the good MSG cards. I've got every good classic card tho so i can still make viable decks.
Nerfing the essential classic cards just puts more pressure on collecting the new adventures and expansion cards. And i don't really look forward to investing a shit ton of time or money in every few months when new stuff gets released, just so i have a chance at winning.
Just disenchant them to craft other goods cards? You get a full dust refund, there's nothing wrong with nerfing when you get the full dust value back so there's no pressure in 'collecting new cards'.
That's not the point. The point is having a Core set which is called Classic right now. They promised they will not touch it for any given reasons or at least, if they wouldn't cause real issues very badly. I don't see ourselves ending with a very "big" Classic set if after only 1 year they thought nerfing/rotating was already required. If the 1-year period in changes keeps trending, we'll end up with nothing in a couple of years since they're just predicting changes for 1-year cycle(s) and not for the entire duration of the game. You're free to search through the forums and i'm sure you'll find plenty of "I don't trust in Blizzard(s) word anymore" due to this same reason. If they can't keep a simple promise of leaving the Classic set alone, what makes you think we can trust them in more serious amendments? It's not even about the dust anymore.
I'm not sure why he bothers responding to the people who just want to call them greedy because they can't win. He did own them pretty hard, but no one should be required to waste a second on people that ignorant.
He is right that the classic set is the strongest set. Many top decks this season have more than half of the cards as basic or classic. Pirate warrior has 22 basic/classic cards. Renolock has 16. Renomage has 18. Miracle has 21. Jade druid has 15. Control warrior has 18.
If I had to choose rotating into wild or nerfing, I'd choose rotation since at least those cards will remain viable there.
What they should do is just keep the classic set 'as is' and rotate an agreed amount of cards out of the classic set each season. Once that season is done, rotate those classic cards back in and then rotate other different classic cards out. This would keep every season fresh without nerfing, buffing, or removing any of the classic cards. Every season would have new decks to design.