Ben Brode Unhappy with Ranked Ladder System
There is a bug (or as Bob Ross would say, a happy accident) right now where you'll get a win streak after 2 wins instead of 3. After a lot of discussion about it Ben Brode came to reddit to announce that it's indeed a bug and explained some of Team 5's thoughts about the current ranked ladder system.
Quote from Ben BrodeSeeing some comments here about how people are enjoying easier laddering due to this bug, and hoping we leave it unfixed. I thought I might chime in and talk about the ladder a bit, and hopefully get some feedback!We have been discussing the ladder system a lot recently - we're not 100% happy with it.
Here are some things we are currently discussing:
Rank 18 players are higher ranked than 50% of HS players. That number doesn't make you feel like you are in the top 50%, and that's a missed opportunity. We try and counter this by telling you all over the place what the mapping is to the rest of the population, but it'd be better if expectations and reality matched here.
We've received feedback that the last-minute jostling for high Legend ranks at the end of a season doesn't feel all that great.
We've received feedback that the ladder can feel like a grind.
We are reanalyzing the number of ranks, the number of stars per rank, the number of bonus stars given out at the start of the season, and other parts of the system.
We are developing simulation systems that let us predict what changes to the ladder would do to the population curve. If we inflate too many stars, the whole population ends up in the Legend bucket and while that might feel great for a single month, the entire system falls apart eventually. People who played waaaay back may remember when "3-star master" was the pinnacle of achievement, and it meant nothing because so many people ended up in that bucket. With better simulation tools, we are planning on trying a lot of crazy things. Iteration is important in design, and getting the tools to iterate quickly is very important.
Something I want to emphasize is that while I think we can improve the ladder, the metric for that improvement isn't necessarily any one player's individual rank increasing. Players want the better rewards (and prestige) associated with high ranks, or the Legend card back, so any change we make that increases the chances of those are likely to be perceived as "good", at least for the short term. But part of what makes the ranked ladder compelling is that exists to rank players. If you want to see how you stack up, ranked is the place to do it. So while some inflation might improve the experience, we need to be careful and make sure we end up with a system that makes people feel rewarded for increases in personal skill or for finding a new deck that breaks the meta.
Have you considered not making the fall in rank so severe in the start of the new season? When I was a new player at rank 21 it didn't feel good to lose against a wicked good deck all the time with my inferior cards.
Yes, that's what I meant by this: We are reanalyzing [...] the number of bonus stars given out at the start of the season.
We think it's a reasonable direction to explore in, but in general it's hard to predict the results on the population distribution among the ranks. Hoping to do some simulation there and make sure there aren't other, better options, too.
Is this really that bad considering legend has its own internal ranking system?
Yes, I think so. Imagine just one bucket and we sort by MMR. There aren't breakpoints with rewards as you increase in skill. There isn't an obvious way to communicate with others about how good you are. It's also difficult to know if you are bad or good. (Is Legend 135003 good? What about Legend 27809?)
The way we communicate our skill or progress is important. Ever heard a friend say "dude! I got to rank 5 this month!"? What is that achievement in a world where everyone is in the same bucket? Watching discreet rank buckets go by (and feeling that progression) and feeling the thrill of reaching a new rank that you've never hit before... those are pretty important, I think.
What I don't like is that you have to spend about 8 to 10 hours fighting the top meta decks (with mostly boring meta decks) just to get an extra Golden Shieldbearer. Rank 5 is usually easy and it is worth the time. Most months I end up at rank 2 to Legend depending on the deck I enjoyed this month but I don't see the point in playing more midrange shaman when I'm not motivated to play it.
Alright the idea of not losing the rank at 0 stars and a loss is quiet ok. Actually pretty good. Maybe even increasing the number of ranks to 50 instead of 25 with that concept is awesome! Like from rank 50-40, you don't lose any stars at all. From rank 40-30, you only lose 1 star with a loss and from rank 30-10, you lose 2 stars. From rank 10-legend, you lose 3 stars and we will increase the amount of stars between the ranks like the following: Rank 50-30: 5 stars and rank 30-10: 10 stars. Rank 10-legend: 15 stars. The winstreak gonna be possible for each rank 50-1 and not losing a rank when losing. Maybe the ranks are too much with 50 but I guess you got the idea. It still would feel like you have to grind but at least the motivation won't really fall then. You need to win in order to get higherbut yeah now a bit cooler.
I love how people can't spot the sarcasm when is right in front of them
as it stands I am good enough to get to legend, but I haven't because I get bored or run out of time, (this is not just a scrub excuse I have shot from 20 to 3 in about 3 hours when playing good decks but I get bored of them and switch to playing mill rogue or whatever) and I see little problem with the ranked system but I think it would be hard to make a bad system and I know many people dislike the rank system, so I approve and whatever happens I am sure that it will be good. Mainly I just care about a diverse meta more than a good ranked system.
I wouldn't mind if they experimented enough to let me get legend just once. That's all I'm asking for, lol.
Kudos for mentioning Bob Ross. It's sad to think that a lot of the player population probably wasn't even born before he died, may he rest in peace.
I think it's ok for now, just more rewards i'll be good for us
I've never come to legend, and I think that if so, should invest time and do not count on it. Still, I think the back is the only thing that motivates me to play that 25/30 games per month, and I want to be clear on this, if you are there, it is because you deserve it and have the time.
It would not be fair to have that back another way, and I do not like to see everyone with that back, are people who have earned it fair and square, in the same way as heroes gold, very well implemented, not everyone would have to have these magnificent skins.
What if it seems unfair are bonuses stars, I do not have the time to spend rank 5, and even back again to the rank 16, I have absolute clarity that next month neither cometh and is a matter of time, chance and a little skill, bonuses stars should be applied based on the monthly race each player, if a player is a legend every month, it would be fair to apply even more bonuses and awards for accumulating those streaks of legend, 2 months in a row, legendary golden, after all, still will remain competitive, but rewarding and motivating your time. It would not be just a regular player legend as far back every month, they deserve more.
Finally, we need changes, to reward and motivate to play on, right now we're a little stuck, only stremers with advertisements have some motivation.
Sorry my poor English, is a vulgar translation.
regards!
I read that in Gordon Ramsay's voice for whatever reason.
What I really want is better season rewards.
I have got legend before but I see no point lately..would be sweet if the rewards changed when you got legend
I would really like to see Hearthstone introduce leagues and for them to have an actual physical representation that you can check while ingame. The lowest league being between the old ranks of 20 to say 18 for example and slowly progressing upwards. Seasons could last for 3 months, similar to overwatch and can work on a points system, 1/2 point(s) for a win, -1 for a loss etc.
I think it would be quite exciting, working your way into promotion positions, it could be something as simple as working your way into a promotion position and you then have to win 1 of your next 3 games to earn a promotion into the next league. They could even use the highest league as a tournament qualification platform, thus incentivising more ladder play also.
I actually have 503435 ideas that have just amalgamated in my head while reading this interview. So great to see them considering changes. What's even weirder though is I had this very same thought last night and i log in today to see an interview on it :D I had no previous thoughts on it at all and I've been playing for almost 2 years now.
What is the other 503434 ideas?
Allot of people have said some great points. I'd just like to add a small one, that imo they should not count accounts who haven't logged in the game for a month or more, in the statistic which shows how well you did in comparison to everyone else. Nobody believes they're at the top 50% on rank 18 in a meta that everyone played to win (or even just played for fun). We all know that the other 30 something precent are people who just haven't played at all that season, most likely. So I'd like them to make those stats more accurate and therefor more meaningful.
discreet: unobtrusive, unnoticeable <followed at a discreet distance>
discrete: constituting a separate entity : individually distinct <several discrete sections>
As a regular Legend player, I want Legend to have the same difficulty to be achieved but less grindy each month. Bonus stars at the beginning of the month should be increased. Legend plays should be reset around rank 5 or rank 7 instead of the current rank 16. Even at rank 5, you'll be battling against other legend players with no win streak bonus for another 25-26 stars.
Blizzard should create a more in depth player profile for each player where it shows their highest career achievements, times they hit Legend and other stats such as win rates.
IMO, regular legend players don't really care much about the reward even if it's a golden epic. Most of us have all the cards already and one golden card is not going to make much of a difference unless you're going for a golden collection which is almost impossible.