Hearthpwn

I think they should just have made it similar to Baron Rivendare in that the effect doesn't stack at all for multiple copies.  I don't think pushing it up to three mana makes much difference in the decks that play it, but you never know.  For warlock there are three changes now, all aimed at slowing things down a touch. 

I assume Blizzards logic in printing this card in the first place was that it is a symetrical effect and therefor fair, but we all know that's not how this game works, and multiplative effects have been problematic before (looking at you Prophet Velen).

Quote from zmauls >>

 

- How is a card which in no way polarizes or dominates the meta or really limits further card design a problem?

 OP lost to it when he was one win away from Rank 5 Silver.

 That comment wasn't from the OP (which is me).  I also think you need to look beyond what's current in the meta.  Cards can be OP (objectively) and not be in the current meta (because the overall package is poor).  A card which can decide the game on turn 2 (with coin) is not healthy for any meta. 

Also - how do you know what will limit future design?  There have been plenty of cards which appeared fine when they were first released then became problematic with subsequent expansions. 

Quote from Pherosizm >>

Quote from YourPersonalGuru >>

Burgle rogue is finally playable and we have a pseudo meme card with a fun and flashy effect in the deck. I can mention a bunch of decks that I would discuss before this one...

 Yes, this.

Putting two 3/3s on board on turn 3 is not broken. Playing a 2-mana 5/4 with rush is not broken. Have you seen some of the other ladder decks?

Don't think I saw any burgle rogues at the world championships either....

Quote from YourPersonalGuru >>

My deck tracker says that in my last 50 games, 6% were against rouge (mostly quest btw). I've met a lot of paladin and warrior in d5-d1. How about a Trampling rhino thread? That's also a random good card, but I've actually seen it in more than 5% of my games (including worlds).

 Just because something is more broken doesn't mean this isn't an issue.  How can people objecetively say that 6/6 in stats for 3 mana isn't OP?  Unless we're just going to re-calibrate mana (like they do with hyperinflation currencies), 3 mana should net you a 3/4 (or a 4/4 with a downside).  That just how it's supposed to work.

As I said - I think they would be fine given they both have conditions to make them work, but given that fullfiling those conditions can be achived by putting a card in your deck that you never want to draw doesn't seem like the most sensible design for a card game.

Also - a decks win/play rate is not dependant on 1 card.  It takes way more than one card for a deck to be successful. 

I dont think Blizz have any idea how to make a balacned card game any more.  They keep making meme style cards and I don't know why.

If they don't work in viable decks - whats the point of making them.  If they do work then they're no fun to play against (look at you Elwyn boar)

Celestial alignment falls squarely into this category

I would love it if Mutanous preferred to chow down on owl, but alas I fear you are just unlucky (or are suffering from subconcious bias and only noticing and remembering the times when Mutanus eats an owl).

When the card was released I thought it was a nice flavour meme card that fitted nicely in a silly kind of way with the flavour of rogue. 

Now it's a stupid card which discounts/activates cards from the start of the game, making them vastly OP for their cost.  6/6 in stats for 3 mana. a 5/4 rush for 2 mana.

It's like Blizz don't know how to balance a game.

p.s. I'm not asking about how it works mechanistically.  I know its completely consistent with other "hero change" scenarios. 

I think these kinds of decks shouldn't ever be able to pull off an OTK on turn 6.  That's the situation with OwlTK and OTK Demon Hunter, which imo means something needs to be changed.

Maybe I'm out of touch with what constitutes "fun" in a game, but does watching your opponent do a bazzillion things while minimally interacting with the board and drawing a stupendous number of cards seem like fun?  If you want to play solitiare there are plenty single player games out there. 

Once again we have the emergence of a meta where the deck you pick and get matched against pretty much decides the outcome.  It's not fun and it's not good for the game.

I would be genuinely curious to see how a ban of 1 class would affect the ladder...

I dont have anything against OTK decks as a concept (indeed there's an arugment that they should exist to counter the heavy control decks).  That said, it should be possible to counter OTK decks, and by counter I don't mean that you should only be able to "kill them before they get the pieces of the combo".  Imo the C'Thun, the Shattered is a good implementation of an OTK style deck - ways to play around it (wide board), not too quick to be assembled etc.

Hearthstone's playstyle is such that interacting the with opponent on their turn is not possible.  Consequently, OTK decks which are viable feel extremely un-fun and unfair to play againt.  Even if they aren't OP (In the sense they win too often relative to other decks) it's a very unsatisfactory experience. The current "tech cards" available to most classes is pretty much Mutanus.  I actually think he's a decent card but not because of his OTK/quest disruption potential (because if you hope to rely on him for that you'll have a bad time).

The bigger problem as I see it is how quickly the current OTK decks gather their win condition.  Warlocks can currently draw (and discount) their whole deck by turn's 8 - 10, which makes the consistency of the OTK very high.  Blizzard has lost sight of the value of card draw (indeed this has been a problem (imo) for all the recent meta decks - quest pirate, quest mage, quest warlock, garrote rogue - even face hunter).  They all have cheap draw, often with minimal tempo loss.

If I was a designer at Blizz this is the area I would focus on rather than printing other OP cards to counteract the problems from the past.

Quote from fusilli >>

Quote from TheNameForgotten >>

I'm pretty surprised that owl warlock is getting so much hate honestly. It's a very strong deck but so is the paladin deck and rogue also has absolutely busted early game. I'm running four silences in order to be able to beat paladin and even that is not always enough. Owl warlock's combo is also countable. The easiest ways is to put down lots of big minions and force them to play many of their combo pieces (if you don't outright win). They are also vulnerable to weapon removal, spell counters, mutinous, and glide. They are a really strong deck but feel fairer than other combo decks in the past imho. Death Knight paladin and Togwaggle Druid had more armor and healing and quest mage (ungoro) could freeze you forever.

If owl warlock is too strong in terms of win rate, it's also one of the easiest decks to nerf. Making some spells cost more or removing the shadow tag would probably do it. 

 It's a combo deck. Don't be surprised when those get hate - the HS community absolutely despises combo. That's one staple that won't change.

 You know why people hate combo decks in hearthstone?  Becuase you can't do shit about them other than "win before they get the combo".  You literally play through the game watching them solo collect the combo pieces while removing your board and then they win.  Wow

It's a poor game design imo, and with all the card draw that warlock now has, it's really consistent

I disagree - it's gone from Piratestone to Warlockstone....

Sigh.

People saying  "beat it with big minions" are incorrect.  I had two 5/20 minions on turn 5 (just priest things) and the lock was able to remove both using Mo'arg Artificer x 2 and only a few cards (which were discounted).  I even managed to re-build a wide, divine shielded board again and he still won with the otk from 30 health.  I think it must have been about a 100+ damage from the owl combo.

Sure Mutanus is a possible counter, but the odds are so low you might as well not bother.  He's no good against most other decks and he doesn't really do much against warlock because they run quite a few minions.

It's early days, and maybe face hunter will push warlock out the meta (again - great!), but this time I'm not so sure.  I think the addition of Dreadlich Tamsin & Full-Blown Evil have really cemented the control-otk warlcok archetype.

p.s. I'm not saying it's unbeatable (very few decks are) but it seems quite overtuned atmo

 p.p.s how the fuck does warlock get a hero power which draws three cards for 6 mana?

I'm not really commenting on the the expansion as such, but tonight was some of the most enjoyable Hearthstoning I've had in ages.  New decks to play against, surprise turns on both sides and people just trying stuff out with sub-optimal lists.  It was fun (but I know that in a couple of days that fun will be over :(

I like that idea about adjacent minions - really fits the theme!  As for point number 2 - do you mean Living Dragonbreath because that's not in standard anymore I don't think.

As for the mini-set - I personally don't think Blizz should use it to introduce cards deliberately designed to shift the meta; much better (imo) to include some sort of balance in the original expansion release and tweak cards which are overperforming.  The mini-set should just be some new cards and the players should be the ones creating the meta.

I think thats one of the real disappointments with HS for me over the last few years.  By and large the viable decks are basically designed by the HS devs by introducing obvious, powerful synergies.  The quests are a prime example of this, no minion mage and  corrupt were basically similar (albeit much lower power).  As much as I hated Zephrys, the highlander decks really made for some creativity and variation i deck design and game play.

Game after game of playing against stupid quest pirate warriors and it's disgusting how easily they come back from skipping turn 1 and turn the board around. 

They complete the quest consistently on turn 5 or 6, while removing my board and damaging my face and barely ever running out of resources.  I know Blizz are probably waiting to see how the new expac changes things up, but this sort of deck should never have made it through testing, and definitely didn't need the buffs that accompanied the mini-set (I mean seriously - did a "4/5 rush, frenzy: draw a card" really need a buff?).

The more I play, the more i'm convinced that the juggernaught isn't the main problem.  It's all the stupidly high tempo cards along the way AND the reward from the various stages of the quest.  It's just so difficult to stick a minion while they easily clear your minions while developing the board.

It boggles the mind that Blizz think it's OK, it truly does.

 They missed an opportunity to print a card like:

"Alterac Campfire", 1 mana 0/3.  Your minions cant be frozen.  Restore 2 health to friendly characters at the end of the turn.

With all the freeze effects in the new set it's (potentially) going to be pretty frustrating to have board after board of minions stuck doing nothing and a card like this would provide some tech options if it became oppresive (but probably wouldn't see much play otherwise).  It would also provide some synergy with the frozen Mammoth for non-frost spell containing classes (and the shaman spell).