Hearthpwn

I really hope the mini set fills the deathknight discover pool with niche shit cards to make their discover pool something less than - I think I will pick my next card....

I know they've attempted to try and bring classes which arent seeing play into the meta by buffing stuff, but the problem isn't always the classes that arent seeing play.  It's the two classes that did see play.

Nerfing those two classes AND buffing the other classes is such a stupid way to make a balance patch and just results in more OP decks.

To be honest I'm kinda thinking that maybe the problem is the game itself.  It just doesn't have the complexity to allow interesting new ideas, so for new cards to be played they basically have to be broken.

I know that I am certainly not really enjoying the way Hearthstone games end up now.  Cards like Astalor that give every deck a win condition.  High-roll stuff like shaman which functionally ends games on turn 2/3 with a bit of luck.  Aggro decks that just keep on going with endless draw - board after board.

It's just not that much fun to me any more, but hey - no one is making me play...

I think it is - now you can draw and play a big taunty boy in the late game and its more flexible in the early game for tutoring

Quote from Tarious >>

People are saying these are the leaked changes. Take it with a grain of salt.

Nerfs

Wildpaw Gnoll: Gnoll now only gets discounted by non-Rogue cards. Maestra no longers works to discount this card
Sinstone Graveyard : Ghosts no longer have stealth.
Final Showdown: 1st stage requirement has gone from draw 4 cards in a turn to draw 6.
Sinful Brand: 1 mana → 2 mana
Astalor: Manathirsts have gone up from 4/7/10 to 5/8/10, Final stage now deals 7+7 damage
Shockspitter: from 3 mana to 4 mana 3/3

Buffs

Bonecaller: 2/4 → 2/5
Basaleph: 5 mana → 4 mana
Haunting Nightmare: Base minion and Token from 3/3 to 4/3
Unholy Frenzy: from 3 mana to 2 mana
Battlefield Necromancer and Boneguard Commanders: Tokens from 1/2 Taunts to 1/3 Taunts
Vengeful Walloper: 7 mana to 6 mana
Wither: from 2 mana to 1 mana Shallow Grave: from 2 mana to 1 mana
Last Stand: From 4 to 1 mana, Now reads: Draw a Taunt minion. Manathirst (8) double the stats.
Remornia: From 4/10 to 5/10
Asvendon: Now 4/3 with taunt
Infantry Reanimator: From 6 mana to 5 mana
Nellie: Reduces Pirates cost by (2). From (1)
Time Warden From 4 mana 3/5 to 3 mana 3/4.
Vast Wisdom: From 3 Mana to 2 Mana.
Energy Shaper: From 4 mana 3/5 to 3 mana 3/4
Darkhan Drathir: From 8 mana to 7 mana

 Leaked changes were pretty much spot on.

Caveat - I don't know what the nerfs or buffs will be!

So - I think this looks a bit disappointing to be honest.  The nerf targets are all well and good (and quite obvious), but the bigger problem with both rogue and DH is the ability to generate/draw cheap and free cards, and that probably isn't going to change a great deal unless they gut the DH quest and some of the rogue staples.  The problem with frost DK is the fact that it never runs out of resources, and how powerful discover effects are in that class.  Sure you can tweak the burst damage from glacial advance, but in my experience frost DK is more attrition based that OTK (although objectively it is a busted card - functionally often 1 mana 4 damge).  As for shockspitter - I hope they change it to something like "increase damage for each minion killed by your hero".  Keeps the theme and gives it a drawback and a means to play around it and slows it down substantially (and reduces the "me go face" reward).

Also sad not to see Brann, but maybe he will get HoF'd instead of nerfed, and he just doesn't fit in the graphic...I can dream...

As for the buffs, I think a lot of these cards are actually fine as they are, but they have no viable decks to fit into.  A buffed Battlefield Necromancer has potential to be really anoying and very strong. The game doesn't need another snowbally 2 mana card that if you cant deal with it straight away you're in trouble.  As it stands he is currently (and often) a 2 mana 3/5 with taunt.  My concern is that these cards, if buffed, change the meta in a a entirely unhleathy way.

Cards which I think do merit a buff Haunting Nightmare, Asvendon, Last Stand. I've literally never seen anyone play them (unless discovered). A card like Energy Shaper should always be a meme.  If you make it viable it's probably going to end up broken, just like Luna's Pocket Galaxy was when it got buffed.  Maybe make it a 4/5 but keep its effect the same?

The bigger question to me though is where is the buff to fiery war axe?  Doesn't the weapon and armor class deserve a 3 mana 3/2 weapon with a tempo effect like everyone else (or just a plain 2 mana 3/2 like it used to be)?   Why does To the Front! have "not less than 1" when virtually no other mana reduction cards do (I know it would allow broken stuff - lots of classes can already do broken stuff!)?  The balance is completely shot and "class identify" doesn't cut it anymore as none of the classes have any identity except overpowered or dead in the water.

Current duel run - deck has no deathrattles, mostly battlecry minions of varying costs and no weapons.

I got offered a deathrattle passive, a spell passive (repeat spell), and the minion passive that puts 2 copies in your deck. 

Why did I get offered the deathrattle passive when I have none?  Not even a single deathrattle.  I know they changed how duels buckets worked and made them worse (which im kinda OK with), but why offer utterly useless passives?  I'm not mad that I didn't get a battlecry one, more that the one I got was 100% useless for my deck.  Is this just the way duels is now?

I'm not saying that the proposed nerfs in this post are anywhere near the mark, but a card like Vexxalus is just set up to become the next nerf target.

Right not the deck sucumbs to high-rolly rogues and massive "from hand" demon hunters because it's just not quick enough, but if those decks end up being taken down a peg or two who know if this will open up a space for a Vexxalus deck to shine.

It's one of those cards that Blizz likes to print that, on paper seem broken, but that I secretely think they hope wont work in a deck (because it will be really unfun for anyone else).  In practice the deck just doesn't work in the current meta, but how many people crafted him hoping that an OTK deck would be viable?

Quote from MvonTzeskagrad >>

Quote from Sherman1986 >>

Quote from YourPersonalGuru >>

Quote from MvonTzeskagrad >>

That's a joke or something, right?

I don't want to spend fucking arcane dust on fucking Glacial Advance.

 Why not just buy the set for gold?

Yeah. He obviously decided to play on ladder with the death knight. In that case, buying the Path of Arthas set is a must.

 Wait, I can purchase it with gold? Where?

I swear this game is getting more confusing to me each new monetisation practise appears (and no, I really ain't trying to ladder up with DK, if anything, ocasionally I get into duel stuff or something).

 Methinks it's a deliberate ploy in all honesty.  I missed it entirely as well and had to save up the gold again to get it (which of course means I'll have less than I otherwise would have later on as I start saving as soon as my initial pack splurge is done.)

Quote from Stupidusername >>

N zoth was pretty unfair against lots of decks .... you say fair but only becouse you played it that much.

 

mr. Smite made me delete the game. Devs are a joke. „Charge and leeroy are problematic, we wont ever again make such a card“ .1 week later and mr. Smite announced xDDDDDDDDD

A card like N'Zoth is never really too unfair though.  It took ages to get going and could only be played on turn 10 (and arguably it would often not be played on turn 10 as you needed to have been fairly lucky with your minions played on the way there).  You had a good idea which things were going to be resurrected so you could (in theory) hold removal for it.  It was the latest of late game cards and it always gave you a turn to respond.  The player running him had to design the deck in such a way as to maximise his effect and then actually play those cards as the game progressed.  The perfect 10 mana type card imo.  I don't even recall there being any meaningful mana cheat back then either.

Don't get me wrong - it was often the nail in the coffin for aggro decks (seeing a board of deathrattle taunts getting resummoned), but I still think it was a fairly well designed card in the big scheme of things and not always a game winning play.

Mr Smite and Astalor are terrible designs for cards (imo) and they're almost ironic in their design, because they both mimic cards which the designers have previously said weren't fun and then nerfed (Leeroy and Denathrius) only to then reprint the same effect in a slightly different form (which is arguably buffed from the previous version).  Of the two I think Mr Smite is almost a reasonable card (pirates do tend to be weak stat wise), but his interaction and high-roll potential with the warrior quest and colossal (before nerf) made it massively overpowered (on top of a quest which was also overpowered).  He is still quite strong in paladin as well.

 Quote from An1ron >>

I don't know why we need such strange changes. It makes it a better card for agro deck, because you can now play him as substantial 2 drop on turn 2 OR in slower matchups like a regular card with manathrist effect.

In my opinion, changing mana cost to 3/6/9 mana solves the problem. First of all, it lowers the power of the card a lot. (3 mana 2/2 deal 2 damage is much weaker than 2 mana and so one). Secondly, you cant shadowstep 3 mana version for free now ( you have to pay 1 mana for each shadowstep +2 mana for other versions).Thirdly, it makes bran/anubrakan/atalor combo for druid much weaker  ( you need to have extra 4 armour for the combo).  And lastly, the number flavour and power of the card keeps at a high level. You can't slam it in every deck, but slower/greedier decks are still gonna play him

I was proposing these changes on the assumption that Brann is going to stay until rotation (given he's been problematic for ages and hasn't been changed).  I actually dont see these changes as strange at all, and to me it keeps the flavour of the original card intact.  If you want the tempo play you lose the late game play.

Imo adding 1 mana to each step probably kills the card in most decks and also feels weird with the manathirst breakpoints (leaving you with a floating mana if you play on manathirst curve).  Maybe my change also kills the card, because it effectively adds 2 mana to the cost of the first two stages without adding any mana to the cost (if you're playing him for the 8/8 Astalor).

As for the proposed change making him a "substantial 2 drop" - I'm not sure it does.  Would aggro decks run a "1-of" 2/2 legendary just for a measly 2 damage battlecry? They might, but I think it's more likely to be used as a late-game back-up to push over the line, and if they don't play him by turn 4 then functionally it's the same as it currently is.

I think a change to deathrattle would also kill the card in pretty much every deck (except rogue and possibly druid) who would both probably find some other way to abuse it.  Xyrella (and multiple res options) could also be busted but that wouldn't matter right now because priest is in a terrible place.

p.s. The interaction with shadowstep is always going to result in multiple Astalors - the problem here is shadowstep, not Astalor, and rogue can never play two 8 mana Astalors in the same turn without a bunch of coins (I think...), so changing the mana cost doesnt matter here either.

Do you think if you swaped the manathirst and battlecry effects from Astalor Bloodsworn he would be more balanced and still be usable?

I.e. play him on 2 you get the two damage (but not the 5/5 version added to hand).  Combined with Brann gives you 4 damage (but only one 5/5 version when meeting the manathirst requirement).

It would still need another change for the 8/8 version to limit the final Brann shenanigins (i.e. keep the manathirst part separate from the battlecry as it is for the other verions).  That would still give 24 damage from hand with Brann.

What do you think?   Obviously does nothing for shadowstep nonsense but would also help wtih Shaman repeating battlecries and punish the non-manathirst version quite heavily.

Nightmare meta is basically the one we have right now, where most games are decided by which class you get drawn against and/or by turn 6.  Control is dead (due to OTK), damage from hand is high (with never ending resources) and high-roll potential is off the charts.

Personally I think a balanced meta is one where all types of decks are viable (aggro, tempo, control etc).  Ideally this would be represented accross all hero's (though in practice not all hero's can generally succeed with all types of deck).  It's important that all types are represented, because each type should keep another from becoming too dominant (that's the theory anyway).  Within this, none of the match-ups should be auto-win or loss, and the in-game decisions should still matter, even if you're playing aggro vs. control.

What is unhealthy (imo) is where a single deck (or deck type) deletes one type of deck from the meta entirely.  Right now control decks aren't viable primarliy because burst from hand is quick, consistant and high damage (often OTK) and control decks can't be pro-active enough to have a chance at winning.  This does not create a balanced meta.

Bear in mind "balanced" and "fun" aren't always the same thing though.  If all deck types were represented equally and each always won against it's favoured opposing deck type (and had a 50% chance to win against the mirror match-up) the meta would be balanced (with each type winning 50% of the games).  It would be very un-fun though.

I think the biggest issue with all the surprise "from-hand" damage is less about the lack of interactivity between the opposing player and your own stuff, and more about the lack of your ability to interact with the oponents game plan (even though you know exacltly what it is).

The bog standard response is "play aggro", but you can't do that after you've started a game.  It's pretty disappointing to know you're going to lose because the deck your playing is basically hard countered by the opposing deck, and imo that is a massive design flaw for any game.  Sure, there will be better & worse match ups, but it absolutely shouldn't be paper, scissor, stone (even though that's the analogy everyone uses).

I hope the nerfs will target some or all of:

1) Mana cheat.  Things should only very rarely cost 0 mana imo, and 10 mana things should generally be 10 mana (and not 0 or 5).  

2) The early high-rolls (e.g. non-games because your opponent got 2 Gnolls or a Denathrius on turn 2).  I'm fine with this sort of thing later in the game when you have a chance to respond.

3) Discover.  There's far too much in general, but against DK in particular it's really frustraing as the discover pools are so small.  The whole point of runes (if I understood it correctly) was to limit powerful 3-run cards to a single rune.  The discover mechanic avoids this limitation and with so many "discover" cards it gets frustrating.  Often these are 1 for 1 "removal - discover removal", which means that resources are essentially endless.  Also - it would be nice if people were limited to 1 or 2 copies of each card in line with deck building constrainsts...Being hit with Frostwyrm's Fury for the 5th time isn't fun.  Playing around and baiting out a card used to be a thing in Hearthstone...

4) Cheap card draw.  Card draw is far too cheap imo.  I makes decks far too consistent, too quickly.  The game was better when people didn't always have the answer and didn't always have resources. 

Quote from SCWT_FTW >>

Quote from Arcengal >>

Taunt is "if your opponent attacks, they must attack minions with taunt before face/minions without taunt if able".

Immune minions can't be attacked.

Since your opponent is unable to attack the minions with taunt, it just doesn't do anything and they can attack freely.

 Wow. Great explanation. I’ll be honest - I’ve been playing since GvG and had no idea that this is how that worked. Thanks for the clarification! 

 It's never really been an issue before as there were very few immune cards, and the ones there were didn't see much play.  Raid Boss Onyxia is the only one I can think of and her immunity is pretty temporary.

Don't feel bad - this falls into yet another one of the "you just have to do it to know" mechanics in Hearthstone.  It makes sense from a play perspective (not being able to attack at all while the taunt minion is alive) but none at all from a mechanics perspective - why can't a big taunty boy be immune?