Hearthpwn

Looking over some cards, I spotted Wild Growth, and I realized that Purify is very similar to drawing Wild Growth after you've already reached a sufficient mana level.

Wild Growth suffers from the "hold on to me" issue that a lot of cards do. You want to play Wild Growth early in the game to ramp up in mana, but you don't want to play it midrange because it screws up tempo plays that actually impact the board (the whole point of wild growth being to allow you to impact the board earlier than you could have otherwise). It's like topdecking a land card in Magic the Gathering when you already have enough mana to do everything you want. So... you hold on to it, because at 10, you can trade it in for a card draw.

Thus, Wild Growth becomes "draw a card" for 2 mana. You run it though in your deck because you want to draw it early. If we treat Purify the same way, then Purify as well is a draw a card for 2 mana. Just as you can't play Wild Growth before 10 mana to draw a card, or if you do play it before turn 10, but after turn 7-8 you won't gain a meaningful mana crystal (such as playing it on turn 9, it literally becomes a dead card, you gain nothing, because you would have gotten 10 mana crystals next turn anyway), Purify too is a dead card when you don't have a minion to play it on, or the minion you want to play it on you don't want to silence. So it just sits in your hand till the right moment.

That got me thinking, there are obviously other cards where you do not want to draw them. We already know Purify won't be in Arena, but what about Brawl modes where decks are randomized? Sometimes Druid is the worst class for those modes because you are plagued with cards like Savagery and Astral Communion. Astral Communion on turn 10 becomes a 4 mana draw a card. That's possibly the worst mana to draw ratio in the game. Savagery without any other card can do no more than 1 damage to only a minion, and requires an additional 2 mana to do so (the cost of your hero power to give it its 1 damage). These are truly awful cards. In fact, I can think of many situations in which they are far worse than Purify, and yet they are both in Arena.

What about Anyfin Can Happen? If you're in a game where no murlocs have seen play, or even a game where just a few have seen play, this card is truly awful. Not only does it cost so much that you can't even hero power the same turn as it, but it can literally have no effect at all. There are very few cards where that is the case. Even in the case of Purify, Wild Growth, and Astral Communion, they all have the potential to cycle themselves. Now plenty of other cards can do "nothing" -- for instance, Brawl could be a dead card if there is only ever one minion on the board. But, Brawl still has the potential to work at some point. Anyfin -could- be a dead card from the very beginning, in the sense that both decks could contain no murlocs at all.

Mindgames should immediately come to mind as well as a dead card. There have been several brawls where decks contain no minions in them and Mindgames puts a Shadow of Nothing onto the board. Obviously 4 mana for a 0/1 is really bad, but the game hasn't been made in such a way that pre-made decks that contain nothing but spells (such as Brawls with Raven Idol) filter out cards like Mindgames.

Similarly, you can run into situations as a priest with Thoughtsteal when you steal cards like Shield Slam and Deadly Poison where you can't make use of a card. I remember one video just a week or two ago where a guy stole FOUR shield slams with no way to use any of them.

So are we harping on Purify a little too much in the sense that at least Purify can be played? Certainly there will be times when it can't, because there's no friendly minion on the board to play it on, but at least at some point you will have a minion and you could cycle it. The same is not true for thought stealing dead cards that your class cannot use, and yet no one says "I guess I won't run Thoughtsteal anymore." (Although less players are running Thoughtsteal because Shifting Shade is better.)

I think maybe calling Purify the worst card ever printed is just a little too much, and maybe I've done that too at some point. I certainly am not trying to hide the fact that I think Purify is utterly bad. But... so are a lot of cards in a lot of situations, and none of them have received nearly as much uproar, let alone getting removed from one of Hearthstone's game modes.

Yeah but at least with Savagery, you can theoretically do a fair amount of damage for the cost. I think the main reason Savagery never initially saw play was that Bite was just a bad card for the cost. When you consider the cost of Claw, you realize that Bite is double the effect, but costs four times as much. On the other hand, Feral Rage then came out and Feral Rage is also twice the damage as Claw but only costs three times as much. Armor for Druids has always been a secondary stat, a by product of cards/hero power. It's not meaningful by any means in the way that armor is for Warriors.

Without (or all other things being equal) other cards though, Savagery is strictly worse than Moonfire. Moonfire costs 1 less mana and can hit heroes. And I think, because of that, Purify might be on par with Savagery. Consider any situation in which you draw a random card. What's the card you least want to get? Or in other words, would a priest want to get Purify LESS than a druid would want to get Savagery?

Quote from elcubano24 >>

...Is no one aware that this is a troll thread...? There are a MILLION other "crap on Purify" threads to choose from, but this isn't specifically that.

Kripparian: All right. Where is Purify? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both play, and find out who is right... and who is running Purify.

Ben Brode: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put Purify into his own deck or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put Purify into his own deck, because he would know that only a great fool wouldn't play what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the deck in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the deck in front of me.

Kripparian: You've made your decision then?

Ben Brode: Not remotely. Because Purify comes from Kharazan, as everyone knows, and Kharazan is entirely peopled with undead, and undead are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me, so I can clearly not choose the deck in front of you.

Kripparian: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Ben Brode: Wait till I get going! Now, where was I?

Kripparian: Kharazan.

Ben Brode: Yes, Kharazan. And you must have suspected I would have known the card's origin, so I can clearly not choose the deck in front of me.

Kripparian: You're just stalling now.

Ben Brode: You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? You've beaten my Spawn of Shadows, which means you're exceptionally strong, so you could've put Purify in your own deck, trusting on your strength to save you, so I can clearly not choose the deck in front of you. But, you've also bested my Shadow Word: Horror, which means you must have studied, and in studying you must have learned that man is mortal, so you would have put Purify as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the deck in front of me.

Kripparian: You're trying to trick me into giving away something. It won't work.

Ben Brode: IT HAS WORKED! YOU'VE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY! I KNOW WHERE Purify IS!

Kripparian: Then make your choice.

Ben Brode: I will, and I choose - What in the world can that be?

Kripparian: [Ben Brode gestures up and away from the table. Kripp looks. Ben Brode swaps the decks]

Kripparian: What? Where? I don't see anything.

Ben Brode: Well, I- I could have sworn I saw something. No matter. First, let's draw. Me from my deck, and you from yours.

Kripparian, Ben Brode: [Ben Brode and Kripparian draw]

Kripparian: You drew wrong.

Ben Brode: You only think I drew wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched decks when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a mage war in Arena" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against a Designer when balance is on the line"! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha...

Ben Brode: [Ben Brode stops suddenly, his smile frozen on his face and falls to the ground defeated]

Buttercup: And to think, all that time it was your deck that Purify was in.

Kripparian: They both had Purify. I spent the last few years building up an immunity to bad card design.

Why would you EVER play this card to get value out of Ancient Watcher or Eerie Statue? It's so dumb, I can't wrap my head around this level of thinking. You're essentially saying you want to play an Ancient Watcher on turn 2, then play an off-curve Purify on turn 3 so you can attack for 4? But why the hell would you just not play Silence instead? Or do you really think spending 3 mana on a card draw is useful? But wait, there's more! You could Purify the Ancient Watcher and then use that 1 floating mana to Power Word: Shield it. Now you've got a 4/7 for 5 mana and you've drawn 2 cards. Well that's really fantastic, but I'd rather do something useful with 3 mana, because no matter how you look at it, you're still spending two mana to draw one card. That's terrible. Silence doesn't replace itself, I'll give you that, but you can also use Silence on your enemy's minion. Here, watch this:

• Turn 2: Ancient Watcher
• Turn 3: Purify + Power Word: Shield. Attack with 4/7 and draw 2 cards.

OR you could...

• Turn 2: Ancient Watcher
• Turn 3: Silence + Novice Engineer + Power Word: Shield.
• Attack with a 4/5, put a 1/3 on the board, and draw two cards. Or attack with a 4/7, put a 1/1 on the board, and draw two cards.

Now what's the difference? Well, in the second version, you need to have Novice Engineer in your hand. That's an extra card in your deck. And you could say "Well, I don't want to run two cards when I could run one card that has both effects." But the problem there is that if you have Purify in your hand and no Ancient Watcher, it's just a dead card. You can't even cycle it unless you use it on a different minion. You could still use Silence though on an enemy minion. And, if you're purely trying to cycle cards, you can always play Novice Engineer and get a 1/1 body and a card draw. You get nothing on the board with Purify, and you can't even get a card draw, like previously mentioned, unless you have a friendly minion to cast it on.

Think of it this way: when you're down to topdecking and you have no minions on the board and you draw a Purify, you literally cannot play it. Opponent has Tirion and you topdeck Silence? You can do something with it. You topdeck Novice Engineer? At least you can cycle it.

Purify is inferior to Silence. We can't call it strictly worse (a term Magic the Gathering players are familiar with), because it does draw a card, but it also is limited to friendly minions, and you're paying 2 mana to draw that card. So yeah, it's very inferior. Here's how you balance Purify to make it playable: Remove Silence from the game and change Purify to read "Silence a minion. Draw a card."

Quote from DreadsteedLover >>

OK , this discussion is a joke , but ,some of your points are incorrect.

1. Your opponent can still get Purify from Nefarian ,Burgle , undercity huckster , etc. , even if it is not in you deck.

2. If you silence a northshire cleric because you dont want to overdraw , you still draw because Purify draws you a card.

3. You would NEVER silence your own Vol'jin , because about 99.999 % of the time , Vol'jin gains health.

4. If you do Lorewalker cho + Purify , your opponent can just not play Purify.

5. Noone plays corruption these days.

6. If you do Purify on Eydis Darkbane or Fjola Lightbane , Purify is just a worse version of Power Word : Shield

7. Shadowfiend + Purify is worse than Saboteur + Purify.

8. I'm pretty sure giving your an aggro paladin an extra card via. Purify is bad.

9. Yeah , Nat the darkfisher and purify is such a good combo. 4 mana , 2/4 minion.

10. You can silence Wyrmrest agent even when it has 1 attack.

11. Priest of the feast + purify is a 6 mana , 3/6 , that give you 3 health.

12. You only play Barnes or Herald Volazj if you have a combo minion , Emperor thaurissan , Malygos , or if you have a deathrattle deck , and then the 1/1 gets value.

13. Noone plays counterspell.

Maybe they want players to be like "This brawl sucks! I'll go play Kharazan" instead.

Quote from cryomatic >>

wrong for shadowfiend line and wrong on thistle tea line you will get 3 draw not 6(missread that one, but you arent getting more card from purify you are getting more card from thistle tea), and why would you purify voljin down to 2 health? and i think you shouldng had made a new purify thread

Here are a few reasons you may want to include a Purify in your deck, or why Purify is useful as a card in general:

• Your enemy can get it from Nefarian.
• If you're playing against a Rogue, they can get it from Undercity Huckster, Swashburglar, or Burgle. Even if they play a follow-up Ethereal Peddler, they still have to silence one of their own minions to get the card draw for 0.
• Your enemy Priest can get it from Thoughtsteal, Mind Vision, or Shifting Shade
• You can play Shadowfiend and Purify it to draw a card and reduce its costs by 0.
• You can play Priest of the Feast and Purify it to draw a card and heal yourself for 3, but no more (you wouldn't want to overheal yourself like some cheap Warrior, would you?)
• Overdrawing with too many Northshire Clerics on the board? Purify it to stop from overdrawing, and draw a card while you're at it.
• Accidentally gained +1 Attack and Taunt on your Wyrmrest Agent? Purify it and dig for more dragons.
• Play Lorewalker Cho and Purify it to give your opponent a copy of Purify but prevent them from giving it back to you.
• Drop a Herald Volazj or Barnes and silence Herald Volazj or Barnes on the following turn because the 1/1 died to your opponent's Searing Totem, Silver Hand Recruit, Shapeshift, Fireblast, Dagger Mastery and you weren't running the inferior Silence because it doesn't draw a card.
• Your Priest enemy can get multiple Purify cards in many Tavern brawls that feature random decks.
• Thoughtsteal your Rogue opponent's Thistle Tea and draw into three copies of Purify. Now you can draw 3 more cards for only 6 more mana.
• If you're playing in the Wild format, your opponent can Loatheb to prevent you from playing Purify and making a huge mistake that could have cost you the game.
• Did your Vol'jin swap too much health from your opponent's minion? Go ahead and Purify it back to 2 where it should be.
• One time card interactions with Eydis Darkbane and Fjola Lightbane!
• Finally make use of Nat, the Darkfisher.
• Burn your opponents Counterspell.
• Give your Paladin opponent an additional card from Divine Favor because you don't even have any minions to play Purify on even if you wanted to.
• Hard counter to Corruption being cast on your Northshire Cleric. Not only does your Northshire Cleric live, but you get to draw a card, AND you don't have to worry about overdrawing from healing your minions too much.

User ntribution (great minds think alike)

• Getting a little ahead of yourself with Nexus-Champion Saraad? Don't put just any random spell in your hand. Purify the engine of temptation and put one of your own cards into your hand. (Thanks l4chsnacken)
  
• Want to feel the raw power of two Purifys at once? Play Djinni of Zephyrs first and maybe you'll understand why Priest is so overpowered, people are afraid to tournament with it. (Thanks BambeenOO)
• Playing Shifting Shade for those value stats and realize getting an extra card from your opponent's deck might burden you into having too many choices to make? Just Purify the deathrattleaway and tap into the power of your own deck! (Thanks Mihaylo_zg)

Well, I got invited to the hearthstone beta in Aug 2013, but I didn't buy my first card packs till Feb 2014, so I think I missed a lot of things like Mind Control for 8. That or I just don't remember. Two years is a long time to remember all the iterations this game has gone through.

I think maybe the most unhealthy time for WoW was during the Grim Patron + Warsong Commander + Frothing Berserker phase. Unlike the current 4-5 card 30-40 damage combo that warriors can pull off using Emperor + Inner Rage + Charge + Worgen + Rampage, this one only required 3 cards, 2 cards at a minimum (you could skip the berserker sometimes and just work with patrons if the board allowed it). Sure cards like Whirlwind and Inner Rage -helped- Grim Patron, but they weren't required, because you could trigger Grim Patron off of enemy minions. It was actually a punishment for the enemy to run anything, especially with Frothing.

Undertaker I compare to Councilman. Council comes out a turn or two later (depending on coin), but with 5 starting health, and ability to be ramped up very easily (because it triggers off summons, not just plays), it's very similar.

Ah, just what Shaman needed, a 9 damage card for 1 mana. SEEMS BALANCED.

Famous last words Pmanda. But you're undoubtedly wrong.

You can't do infinite amounts of damage. Once the AI takes over 1000 damage, the game ends.

I really like the concept of this brawl, but I really fucking hate the execution of it. Giving the AI cards like Dark Bargain, Mind Vision, Mirror Entity, Dispel, and Fireball really kills the creative flow, because once you do get to execute a combo, some stupid shit happens and ruins it. The AI played Mind Vision for instance and stole my Spellbreaker, but didn't play it against any of my minions, even though the AI routinely uses its own Dispel against its own minions, for no effect. Several turns later I played my Scaled Nightmare, and sure enough the silence comes down. I play [card]Emperor Thaurissan[card/] and Fireball comes out. I have Emperor + Scaled Nightmare on the board and Dark Bargain comes out. It's just dumb, because here I am trying to clear the enemy board and ALSO work my way to doing damage, but now everything gets reset because the AI has cards from a whole bunch of classes that make no sense whatsoever.