Hearthpwn

Here are my 3 wishes:

1.  The Octogon (new game mode):  This is a ladder just like Standard or Wild, but it has a regular and random set rotations.  At the start of the month, randomly choose 8 expansions and/or adventures.  There are currently 18 of these choices not including Classic/Basic cards.  So I would also include Classic/Basic as the 19 choice.  These chosen 8 would form it's own meta game and would last one full month.  If you felt that 1 month was not long enough, make it 2 instead.  This mode would be completely independent of any new sets being released and would not necessarily include the new expansions.  Also, you should announce which 8 expansions are included about a week ahead of time to the change.

2.  Tavern Brawl Feedback.  Being able to vote on and rate Tavern Brawls on a regular basis.  And a place to be able to suggest new ideas for Tavern Brawls.

3.  Duality (new game mode):  For both Wild and Standard.  When Deck Building you get to choose 2 Classes instead of 1.  All cards from those classes are now legal deck building choices.  But because we want some semblance of balance, your deck MUST contain a minimum of 10 cards from each chosen class.  So you couldn't build a Control Warlock deck with 2 Pyroblasts for finishers.  It also means you cannot include more than 10 neutral minions/cards.  The whole point of this new game mode is to impose deck building restrictions but allow more freedom for combos and minion interactions.

Some of these adventure cards, including these leaked ones (assuming they are real), seem like leftovers from the main set or were cut for some reason.  Some are really powerful and some are why is this even a card?

Well, in the least the meta should be changing with a few of these cards.

I love the POOF all the minions are gone, but I don't like the random spells every turn.  Let's assume for simplicity that the spells work out in your favor 60% of the time.  Whether that is because it only affects you, your minions or does nothing at all.

Is that worth it?  I imagine if we did the actual math and looked up EVERY spell, we would find the numbers not that high in your favor.

You play this on turn 10, nothing on the board.  Pass to your opponent.

Your opponent fills the board up again with 2 minions and does some other spell stuff.  You are faced with 2 minions and you have no board.  The spell trigger comes around...

That is how we need to calculate the effectiveness of the hero power.  You do not have any minions but your opponent most likely will.  That means any spells that target minions that are beneficial is a bad result.  Board clears are a good result.  Friendly minion buffs do nothing.

So we take all that math involved, but skew it towards the FIRST time it triggers.  What are the chances of good results?  bad results? and nothing or neutral results?

But what happens when you take the board back because the spell clears their minions on your first turn trigger (good result)?  You go ahead and play a bunch of minions and then when the second turn trigger comes around, now what?

This feels far too random to be reliable and competitive.  UNLESS you can somehow replace the hero power a few turns later.  The POOF is so good that its hard to imagine no one playing it.

I dunno, I think ultimately, I would play around with it, get annoyed with the lack of Discover attached to the card and take it out of my deck.

I think this fits into Highlander Warlock or Handlock in Wild.  In Standard, I just don't see it disrupting too many strategies.  The card is very good, but it is random and if the card is 'playable', then the opponent might play the card anyhow, and nothing is lost or gained here.

I think this loses way too much value in the late game though as the cards that are playable will probably be played anyhow.  This is good exactly on turns 3 through 5, right in the mid game where certain cards might be conditional.

The rez mechanic only becomes unhealthy when there are lots of supporting cards to sustain your life total.  Whether through board wipes or healing cards.  Taunt and death rattle cards make rez cards that much better because you are getting multiple bonuses without the ability to put 5 copies of a card in your deck.  You get that by substituting rez cards and hoping you get 'extra' copies of the same death rattle minion.

So are there good supporting cards for Priest?  Yes.  They have healing, board clears and good value minions that generate more cards like Dragons.

The priest deck is a control deck with the ability to keep annoying minions on the board.  Transform or silence will help in most situations.  If you DO find Priest to be an issue, the question is this:

How does the Priest beat you?  Can you throw in Silence cards in your deck?  What is your deck designed to do, and specifically what turn does your deck typically try to win on?

If your answer is your deck is trying to grind the game out and win on turn 10+, you will lose against rez priest.  Their minions are better value and once the quest is completed will be out of reach of killing them with your minions.

If you are trying to go face and go aggro, then where do you find yourself losing?  Maybe adding silence or weapons will help?

So to answer the original question....Yes, I do believe Rez is unhealthly IF the tools exist to support it AND there are no counter play tech cards.  There are both right now in Standard.  But also ask yourself....what is your deck trying to do to win?  Maybe ask for advice on how to beat Rez Priest with your current deck and provide a decklist?

Then you can get an idea if your deck can even beat Priest in the first place.  For example, my Druid Quest deck with no OTK elements will never beat Priest.  How can I improve that if I find I am facing Priest after Priest?  Add an OTK element to the deck.  Or realize my win rate is terrible against Priest and concede if it appears you cannot rush them down quick enough.

BTW, I don't know for sure the win rate percentages of Druid versus Priest, so if you know those, let me know.

New cards will be fun as long as they are not auto include in every deck because the power level is obvious.  Make the power level related to specific deck types, not all decks.

For example, Zilliax is universally good and why most decks play that minion.

You know, like a Beast card that makes your other beasts better.  Or Dragon synergies since this is the year of the Dragon.

Quote from 1xbenx1 >>

The problem with Galakrond is the Arcanite Reaper. The third form is so insanely superior to the second form because of the weapon that you just slap every parasitic card in the deck, flesh out the rest with class-specific card draw, and call it a day.

I think you could probably fix this by doing a few things:
(a) reduce the overall atk of the 3rd form's claw.
(b) reduce the overall atk of the 3rd form's claw, and give the other forms smaller claws as well.
(c) create a 4th form that has the fully powered claw.

But instead, they're going to do shit like nerf Scion of Ruin or Galakrond's Might, killing the deck.

 Yep.  This is how they do things.  Make something crazy powerful and then nerf it instead of modifying it.  I would love if the team tackled the fact that they made a huge mistake with Galakrond and weaken the cards slightly.  You can do that by making it harder to reach the final form OR you can reduce the powerlevel of the last stage.

The weapon is fair on it's own, but the fact that it enables the hero card later and the hero power from Galakrond makes the weapon stupidly powerful when you top deck it, means that your life total has to be above 15 AND the warrior has to have no minions on board.

Also, I think everyone agrees that Leeroy is still a HUGE problem for Standard.

I am looking forward to this because Standard right now is not fun to play and I already beat and unlocked everything in the previous adventures released.  I like single player content because I get to enjoy Hearthstone without the oppression of ladder games.

The issue is that they push the power level of cards and then pretend it won't be a problem.  Anyone could see that double invoke for Shaman is powerful, but then combine that with an already powerful battlecry deck and you have yourself an overpowered card that needed to be nerfed to 6 mana.

The other issue, which someone alluded to is the power level is heightened by on curve AND synergistic plays.  I play something on turn 3, then follow it up on turn 4 and finish with a nice turn 5 play.  That alone creates scenarios that are completely unfun to play against and while that might be a 'high roll' situation, it still makes things unfun because there is very little interaction that opponents can do.

You have high value cards that generate more cards.  One of the largest weaknesses in the past to mid range or aggro decks was the fact that they would run out of resources and have to top deck.  How many of these decks are in 'top deck' mode these days?  And even if they are, the card they find helps them get more resources anyhow.

This game feels like it has degenerated to the point that the game is no longer about trading minions efficiently, saving resources and making smart plays.  It feels like even if you make mistakes or over extend, you can refill your hand, refill the board and never get punished.  Does everyone find that sort of gameplay fun?

You may joke about it, but playing a vanilla 4/5 Yeti on turn 4 was considered a good play.  Now that's not even good to do in Arena.  Now on turn 4 you can generate a 2/5 minion that when it dies, generates a 7/7 and also generate a 7/7 with a deathrattle weapon.  Turn 4, you get a 7/7 and a 2/5 with a 7/7 waiting in the shadows.  Tell me again how this isn't powercreep to the extreme?

Or how about Shudderwock.  Remember all those battlecry effects that are now long gone and I FINALLY have the board clear and your hand is mostly empty.  Remember how I have started to turn the game around and finally have some minions on board?  Remember how none of that matters and you simply playing Shudderwock fills your hand up with more resources, clears the board and keeps minions behind?

So Blizzard is now stuck in a rut.  If they don't produce overpowered cards each expansion, then no one will buy the cards.  But then these new over powered cards make an oppressive meta game and they have to nerf some of them.  Then the decks that were held in check by these tier crazy decks creep up and then they cause problems.  Now they are going to nerf some more cards.

You might seem to think the issue is they need to stop printing over powered stuff, but instead, print it anyhow, get people to buy the new cards and then nerf them later if and when they become a problem.  Doesn't seem to be a good business strategy because people will eventually get fed up and leave the game permanently.

And class identity has gone out the window now.  You have a shell of what classes used to be, because classes now can do whatever they want.  Archetypes no longer have weaknesses.  Aggro runs out of cards?  Nah, not anymore.  Mid-range has no big I win cards?  Nah, we got those too.   Combo decks are hard to pull off?  Nah, let's make it easier and on curve.

So you have class and archetype identity no longer having any meaning.  Everything about this game is about cards that generate more and more value.  And power creep is so insane that if you even compare cards from 2 expansions ago, you would laugh at the joke.

4 drop 3/2 minion with rush and reborn.  Nah, let's make something that summons an EXTRA 3/2 now.  BTW if you manage to buff the minion in your hand, you can actually make it do more stupid stuff like Galakrond battlecry for warrior turning them all into 7/6 minions instead.

Drawing 4 cards used to cost 7 mana with no other benefit.  Now....well, Sprint is a complete joke of a card.  If you spend 7 mana to ONLY draw 4 cards then you will lose all of your games.

Not very powerful in most situations.  Very powerful in limited and specific conditions.

Didn't see this card first go around.  It has some interesting counter plays but not sure if its worth a deck slot.  Depends on the meta.

I think that only Highlander decks MIGHT be able to fit this in if they feel it necessary.

I think the best use is to use it with either Druid Quest or Shaman Quest.

Druid Quest AFTER you complete it.  As the Druid, you give your opponent a useless hero power after you are done using it.  Or if you don't have many choose one cards in your hand, use their active hero power for the turn and give them one they cannot use.

Shaman but not hero power activation.  You swap hero powers for a turn, most likely they could not use it OR if they do get very little benefit from it. 

Seems like an interesting card to play with, but best against certain classes with hero powers you want to deny or steal for a turn, like Boom hero power.

I do agree that a permanent swap at 2 mana is far too powerful or bad for the game.  Now if this was a legendary minion at 10 mana, that would be different.

CALL OF THE OCEAN!

The deep sea is the biggest unknown of Azeroth, and mortals fear the unknown. For this reason, the seas were left mostly untouched by Azeroth's denizens for millenia. And now, we are going on an expedition into the ocean! Brace yourselves, for we'll discover hidden places unbeknownst to men for thousands of years, race against Elemental waves, Pirates, Murlocs and various Beasts, face eldritch horrors, and most importantly, find treasure!

The sea floor hosts many dangerous predators and mysterious creatures. Some of them are Submerged in deep waters, and may Resurface for different effects! 

On Submerge/Resurface:

 Many residents of the ocean have some form of defense mechanism against the spellcasters of Azeroth. They utilize the waters to their full advantage, making them Evasive. These minions can't be targeted by spells or Hero Powers.

The depths have many different habitats, and when they hit the board, their effect continues for several turns. All classes get a spell that have a persistent effect for multiple turns.

All kinds of minions roam the seas, be it a Pirate, Murloc, Beast, or even Mech. Most types will get immense support cards to boot.

Call of the Ocean has 135 cards. Each class gets two Legendary cards and one class gets a new Hero Card. However, that's not all, as after I reveal all of the cards, there will be an Adventure with PvE encounters and even more collectible cards, with five more neutral Legendaries!

DRUID (10/10)

 HUNTER (10/10)

 MAGE (10/10)

 PALADIN (10/10)

 PRIEST (10/10)

 ROGUE (10/10)

 SHAMAN (10/10)

 WARLOCK (10/10)

 WARRIOR (10/10)

 NEUTRAL (45/45)

 TOKENS

 I hope you like the expansion! I'd really appreciate if you give some feedback. Stay tuned for more updates and reveals. Take care, and surrender yourself to the Call of the Ocean!

Keeping in mind that we have yet to see all the new cards, the current expansion is weird to me.
Rather than trying to push new archetypes, the cards seem to be pushing a variety of already existing archetypes, without really committing to any one.

Take Paladin for example. as of the revealed card right now, we see support for murlocs, one health minions (?) , highlander, and reborn minions.
In Shaman we see them pushing lackeys, totems, battlecry's, and murlocs.
Warrior is pushing taunts and weapons.
Wizard is looking like a combo between secrets and casino.

With few exceptions, the cards aren't really good enough to support the archetypes on their own (again, keep in mind we havn't seen all the reveals), but fit in nicely with existing wild decks.

A "soft nerf" to Underbelly Angler may be already on it's way. It looks like there are 2 more Murloc cards being revealed today. Regardless of how good or bad they are it will still end up increasing the pool of Murloc cards which will consequently decrease your chances of getting the ideal Murloc card that you would want for any given situation: Warleader, Toxfin, Angler, Tidecaller or Coldlight Seer, etc..

I love how we currently exist in a metagame where arguably the best deck (control warrior) plays a card that extends fatigue by 10 cards (Elysiana), and sometimes plays that card twice (Faceless/Brewmaster variants are picking up steam for the mirror), but this is somehow "too slow."

The only part of this card that is "too slow" is that the Warlock class lacks solid early/midgame plays at the moment.

Quote from badhank14 >>

Glad you took the effort to do this, enjoyable read through.  Now to my comments on a few things that stood out to me.

I think I am one of few people to think that Secret Paladin is going to fail hard.  If you go all in on secrets, and have no card draw, you will not only run out of steam, you will lose immediately once they clear your board.  And in most control classes, thats turn 5.  If they did not HOF Divine Favor, this secret deck would have been more oppressive than Odd Paladin before they nerfed some of those cards.  This is the most high roll aggro deck to date.  If you hit your secrets on turn 1 and your playables on turn 2, you have a huge advantage, that some decks cannot overcome.  And some classes can like Hunter can hinder your turn 2 play by playing Freezing Trap.

So Secret Paladin will be played but I do not believe it will be as good without good card draw.  Tier 2 for sure.

So Heal Druid for me seems like it can work in a world full of aggro, if that's where we are headed.  They require NO activation cards to heal and once they get to the late game, they will have no problem putting up multiple huge Taunts after healing.  The issue is that against control or OTK, you need activators to use your heal cards.  So as a heal Druid you have to decide, do I activate my own healing or let my opponent.  So this archetype seems so weak to meta game changes that I do not see this deck as very good.  This might be a very good tournament deck though.

Warrior seems to be in the best position as it lost the least amount of goods and still has a Hero card.  The classes with hero cards are the ones to keep an eye on, including Shaman.  The Bomb Warrior if it ever becomes good will be hard countered by Rafaam.  If Hakaar is a deck, people will gravitate towards Warlock and that also means Rafaam.  Bomb Warrior is a fun deck but not very good if Warlock becomes a thing.  The Rush/Mech thing without the bombs is the way to go.  Really good tempo and has a strong late game.  Loses to infinite decks like Pogo Rogue.

So you have this meta game of revolving ideas where you have infinite value decks, combo OTK, hyper aggro and now I believe that Shaman has the best of both worlds.  Murloc Shaman is going to be the strongest aggro deck, NOT Secret Paladin.  Shaman has the ability to flood the board, then when they run out of cards, have the easy ability to refill their hands with more murlocs.  They can outlast any control deck because of the extreme value of some of the murloc cards AND if they get an aggressive start, win on turn 5 with a Bloodlust.  If your deck  cannot deal with a constant flood of minions, then you will lose one way or the other.  I am even theory crafting playing Hagatha Hero card in Murloc because IF they clear your board, you can play Hagatha to clear their board AND get more value from your murlocs in the form of Shaman spells.

Lastly, you have Pirate Rogue.  Pirate Rogue seems far more aggressive and consistent than Thief Rogue or Pogo Rogue.  The thing with Pirate Rogue, is you can play a few 1 of cards in your deck to give yourself tons of tempo and keep the minion pressure on.  I think the Pogo Rogue cannot exist in a world full of Murloc Shaman.

We shall see in a day or two, what is going to happen, but no matter who is right or wrong, everything changes.  But War.  War never changes.

 

 Thanks for such a thoughtful reply. These are fun to do. Since we're all evaluating the set for theorycrafting. It's nice to get it on the page. Plus, it's always fun to see what surprised me, and where I was totally off.

I agree completely that Secret Paladin has some glaring weaknesses. But I do think there's an important role for hyper aggro decks in a metagame. I also think, because of the secrets, that this is the aggro deck that will beat most other aggro decks. Tier 2 does seem like a good landing spot for the deck, after all the dust settles and the control/midrange decks begin to crystallize.

We agree on heal druid. I just don't think it's there. I do think some of the heal cards are actually better for a midrange/token style deck than they are the heal deck.

I'm worried about warrior. It seems to me the deck can play whatever it wants to, and it'll be fine. Bombs? Cool. Dragon's Roar? Cool. Omega Assembly? Cool. It has so much late game and strong-to-reasonable early game. It might be the new druid.

I am less bullish on Murloc Shaman the aggro deck than you are. I know the theorycrafting streams weren't the same as ladder, but the deck seemed to miss something. I truly wonder if we are going to see Murloc Shaman the midrange deck. I feel like there may be more possibility there.

Rogue feels similar to warrior in my mind: The card pool is so strong that you can do just about whatever Tempo/Aggro things you want and you'll be good. My best bet is that we end up with some manner of "good stuff" rogue. It just plays enough of the good cards and figures out a top end based on whatever "good cards" suit it best. Might be Togwaggle. Might be Hooktusk. MIght be Tess.

People who play the game fast and not rope makes for great game play.

Except Grumble, Worldshaker and Hoarding Dragon, almost every other card has low stats. This expansion is a giant nerf to Evolve Shaman. Devolve on the other hand became more powerful.