Hearthpwn

The following arguments against 'fixing' Naga Sea Witch do not have merit:

1.  I crafted all those cards to make the deck.  That's nice, but that means no card should ever be nerfed because there are times players craft cards for a deck all the time.  Raza Priest got nerfed and many people crafted cards just for that deck.  It's a weak argument that basically says, please don't nerf the deck that I made.

2.  It's fine as it is, as there are counters to the deck.  Even if there are counters to the deck, that does not mean it should still be allowed to exist in the game as is.  You have to take under consideration, how do these Giant NSW decks warp the meta and regardless if there are counters, sometimes you can't draw your counters on turn 4 or 5 when it matters.  Also, some counters cost too much mana.  It's the age old story...I have a rat problem.  Get a cat.  The cat has outstayed its welcome.  Buy a dog.  and so forth.  Instead of creating cards to deal with problem cards, just kill the rat (or the problem card in the first place) with a broom.

3.  There are other crazy decks in wild, so it's no big deal.  2 wrongs don't make a right.  Just because someone else is committing crimes, doesnt mean its ok for you to start doing them just because they are getting away with it.  All decks and cards that are causing an oppressive or un fun Wild meta should be looked at carefully.  Losing on turn 4 or 5 because a card is not working as intended or broken is not a fun or even interactive experience.

4.  It doesn't have a good win or play rate, so it's ok.  I don't care if the deck has a 2% win rate and only 3 people play the deck.  The card going forward will always cause problems with future design if they ever wanted to print other giants or other cost reducing cards.  The card is not working as intended.  Win rates do not matter to a card being broken.

Basically, the NSW and Giants issue comes down to the following valid arguments as to why it should be 'nerfed' or reverted to its old self:

a.  The card is not acting or interacting with other cards with it's intended effect.  The implied effect was to have all your cards cost 5.  Cost reduction should not come into the equation.

b.  It's un fun and un interactive for the other player.  I try to kill you before turn 4 or 5.  if I fail, you get to spam the board with giants and win on the following turn.  In fact, by attacking you, I have enabled one of your giants to be cheaper too.  There are very few counters that can clear a board on turn 4 or 5 and that means you lose.

c.  Cards that affect or warp a meta game, should be monitored and fixed, despite win rates and play rates.  It doesn't matter how many times a deck wins, the card itself is still not fair.  Let's suppose a card read "10 mana minion - Battlecry:  If your deck has no cards in it, you win the game."  It's 10 mana, so no big deal right?  Wrong.  Such a card would be un fun and have no interaction from the opponent.  You simply fill your deck with board clears and card draw.  If you are druid, you can put in ramp too and win before it matters.  You might say, but it's very hard to pull this win condition off.  Yep, it is.  Still not fun and your opponent has no chance to disrupt it.

Another example, which should be a simple thing, is to fix or change keywords from the past.  Why, because it keeps the game consistent.

Fix cards that dont have the intended effect.  Update cards to reflect their ability.

Unstable Evolution should have Echo.

Warsong Commander should read Rush minions instead now to make it playable as it's clear Charge is too hard to balance.

And there are many other examples as well.

Oh, I know how to stop their combo!  I can play Dirty Rat!

Oh wait, how come that didn't work?  Oops.

You have to look at Hearthstone and other card games and compare the differences.  Games that have the attacker choose how they trade minions favors a certain style of gameplay and 'curvestone'.  Games like Magic the Gathering have the defender choose how minions are traded, or at all.

That right there is a HUGE difference in how cards are designed and how a simple 2 mana 2/3 in MTG is less threatening than a 2 mana 2/3 in Hearthstone.  Another difference is that MTG requires you to have an attack step in which you must declare all your potential attackers at once.  In Hearthstone, it's 1 minion at a time.  One of the last 3 main differences is the mana system in both games.  You need land to play cards in MTG and in Hearthstone, all you need is time.

A haste creature in MTG is not as powerful as it is in Hearthstone (Charge instead), because the defender gets to choose how to defend or trade minions.  Charge as we know in Hearthstone is still an issue today and still an unbalanced ability.  Take Leeroy for example, in Hearthstone, that 6 damage goes to face without much issue.  In MTG, Leeroy generates 2 minions for your opponent, which gets to block Leeroy and trade for free.  Leeroy would actually be a terrible card in MTG, but in Hearthstone is in almost every aggro deck right now.

Once you see these differences, then you can better assess and propose changes to mechanisms and cards in the game.  And I am not saying that you don't know these things, as you might.  But I think it was worth describing in detail, some of the differences and why cards appear more or less powerful in different games.

One last difference, which actually does matter too, is that minions fully heal from damage at the end of every turn.  So if you only managed to damage a 8/8 taunt with 7 points of damage in MTG, you basically wasted your time and resources.  In Hearthstone, you at least can make those sacrifices, knowing that the damage persists over turns.

The biggest changes I would like to see in Hearthstone, is more interaction between players when its not their turn.  In MTG thats deciding blockers and playing 'instant' spells.  In Hearthstone, its Taunt and Secrets.

I think you could implement some sort of interaction when its not your turn, and you could play test it at first with minions or a few spells to see how it works.

For example, this is a card I just came up with to allow some interaction when its not your turn in Hearthstone.

Cost 3 mana spell (Priest) - Target minion gains 'cannot attack if damaged'.  Draw a card.  At the start of your opponents turn, if this is in your hand, you may play it before your opponent plays any cards.  REACTION (new keyword)

So this would act like a discover card when your opponents turn starts.  Would you like to cast this spell?  Yes or no?  Your opponent knows you have some sort of 'Reaction' spell and gives them information.  That player's turn timer does not count down for the duration of this spell interaction.  Your turn timer though is very limited if you do decide to play the spell or not.

Can this be accomplished in Hearthstone?  I think so, even if not easily.  You could cheese this effect out though and call it a Secret with the same text.  But can you really give all classes secrets?  It wouldnt feel thematic or right.

My issue with any of these strong cards is the high roll potential of most of them.  Call to Arms can get 2 Knife Jugglers and get the Divine Shield Taunt as well and unless you have direct removal, your minions will get dinged and removed easily with a bunch of minions coming into play.

Spiteful Summoner is another problematic card like Barnes.  Getting free or discounted minions needs to be balanced properly.  I actually like the idea of 'destroying' the spell you reveal.  Why?  Because it's thematic.  He is a spiteful summoner, meaning he is going to do something bad in order to give you something in return.  Destroying the spell works for me.  It means you no longer have the 10 mana spell later in the game.  Risk vs Reward.

Possessed Lackey is another issue because getting a 9 drop on turn 6 or 5 (with the coin) is not fair as no other class can pull this off and it also limits future Demon designs because of it.  If they ever wanted to print a fun or strong 10 cost demon, now they can't or should be wary to do so.

It's why Corridor Creeper had to be nerfed because an unconditional 0 cost 5/5 is way too strong.  Trading minions and destroying them is all the natural part of the game.  That's the unconditional part as it requires no 'extra' effort.  Other free or discounted minions usually require some sort of prerequisite. 

I have actually designed cards for fun before and many of the design themes I have had, gives you powerful effects, but also 'destroys' the card in the process, so that infinite combos are less likely.

Example: Mage Secret, Cost 3 mana - Whenever your opponent plays any card, Discover a Secret in your deck.  Put a copy of that Secret into the Battlefield and in your hand.  Destroy the discovered secret afterwards in your deck.

What the above Secret does is gives you a copy in your hand.  This has synergy with Quest mage and the 4 drop elemental.  I think if Spiteful Summoner destroyed the spell, that would be at least balanced.

Right now, getting a 10 drop AND having access to the spell later is not a fair card.

Now the other issue I have is that not all classes have 8, 9 or 10 cost spells so this 'neutral' minion is not usable or very powerful in other classes.  That makes the card feel like it was designed for Priest, Mage and Druid specifically.  I think that if other classes had similar access to a 8, 9 or 10 cost minion, it would be fair as everyone would have the choice to run it.

Lastly, the Witching Hour - Hadronox Druid deck is fair even though for 3 mana you get a 9 drop.  Guess what, its not unconditional, its not easy to do and takes a lot of setup to pull off.  You also CANNOT build your deck with any other beasts otherwise you risk not getting Hadronox.  That's a well designed card as it takes effort.

Spiteful and Possessed are not at all fair and require no setup or effort to pull off.

Free cards are an issue for almost any card game, Hearthstone, MTG or others.  Depending on how the 'free' condition is triggered, it can be very problematic.

Corridor Creeper happens naturally simply by playing the game and doing what you are supposed to do.  Get board control and trade minions.  A card that can go into both aggro AND control decks feels unbalanced.  If a control deck can board clear and then play a free 5/5, that seems pretty unfair.  The opposite is true too.  You finally clear the board of an aggro deck and they refill the board with a free 5/5 and other minions.

The easy balance is to make it friendly minions only instead.  That means it's still powerful in aggro, but not in control decks too.

Patches is also a problem because the Pirate package is both good for aggro AND control.  It's a free 1/1 with charge that helps control the board.  Control decks are now using the Pirate package to fight against aggro and it removes a card from their deck, making their draws slightly more consistent.

Vilespine Slayer is fine.  It's a 2 card requirement AND a terrible top deck.  Rogues should be good at single minion removal.

Barnes is actually a problem as well.  It's a high roll card that wins games on the spot.  You hard mulligan for Barnes on turn 4 and you simply win for Big Priest.  It's unfun to play against because you CAN'T kill their minions now.  Barnes has other issues as well as the card pool expands, but will only be an issue in Wild later on.  Not all classes or decks can play transform effects.  And even if they do, decks tend to only have 2 to 4 at most.

The cards I have a problem with the most and that I think that are issues for the future of Hearthstone are the 'free' cards and the high roll cards.  Some of the other high roll cards are (most of the random card generators) Babbling Book and Swashburgler.  They are impossible to play around and some games you get some ridiculous card out of a 1 drop.  And feels terrible when you get a completely useless card too.

I am ok with cards like Discover because it requires knowledge of the cards, game state and some skill is required if the cards are all good.

I am also ok with random effects if they come from your opponents hand or deck, like Crystalline Oracle.  Knowing what's in your opponents deck is good, but your opponent CAN play around it, as they know whats in their deck.  There is a skill factor for both players.

And Evolve is such a high roll card now that I hate playing with and against it.  Oh look, I got a 7 drop, but its a 1/1.  Evolve is a decently designed card in theory.  It requires a board state AND another card (Evolve).  Top decking the card is often terrible too.  But because there are so many badly stated cards on most of the mana curve, you end up with a card that feels like an auto win or auto loss card.

I wish Hearthstone moved away from all the random effects and free cards.

Not for warrior.  Warrior can abuse this card the most.  If you draw the card, just Dead man's hand it back into your deck.  There are even potential combos with Blood Warriors to put damaged copies into your hand so you can DMH them back into your deck.

The card is slow at 9 mana, but Warrior is probably 1 of the few classes that can pull it off.  I love the idea of this card because it opens up deck building ideas and cards that were not normally playable, can become great.

Think of this as a Patches.  How good is patches when you draw him?  Not very.  This 9 drop works the same way.  You don't want to draw some of these minions, but cheat them out.

Aluneth and Dragon Soul will both be very good in their respective classes.  What I wonder about, is how good are they in other classes?  Specifically Rogue who can potentially grab a legendary weapon with their Swashburgler and Hallucination?  Imagine Dragon Soul in Miracle Rogue...pretty sick actually.

Regardless of how bad or good someone evaluates cards, keep in mind the following:  There are too many factors for you to predict how much a card will be used based purely on the power level of the card itself.

Doom for Warlock is a very powerful card, but it costs 10 mana.  If you can't get to turn 10, then the card doesn't matter.  If you have a full hand on turn 10 and the opponent has a full board, playing Doom will burn too many cards.  Someone who says that Doom is a bad card is correct if you look at the current Meta, but would be wrong if there werent the following decks dominating the ladder:  Tempo Rogue, Highlander Priest and Jade Druid.

Aluneth is a very powerful card and does NOT need to be played on turn 6.  Especially if you have a full hand.  So when do you use it?  Well this is the thing, If you are playing a burn/tempo Mage and you are purposely running out all of your cards, you are hoping to draw into Arcane Intellect in the mid game.  But you are spending 3 mana to 'do nothing'.  Imagine you are top decking though and what would you rather have?  Aluneth or Arcane Intellect?  Depends on the current match status.  If you are close to killing your opponent, you want AI so you can draw that last burn card.  But if you are not, then you want Aluneth to refuel and refill your hand.  But that is the question, is it powerful?  Yes.  But will it be played in burn mage decks?  I dont think so, at least not in the current meta.

No one is running weapon destruction either because the 2 classes that you would do it against are Paladin and Warrior.  Warrior doesnt play FWA anymore and is not top tier anyway.  Paladin fell down a few notches and is also why people have taken out weapon removal.  Heck, if Shaman was more dominant, but they only play 2 copies of 1 weapon in current builds now, so it doesnt matter.

I think Dragon Soul is the one that will get played in Highlander Priest decks.  I also think they will start to include more 'free' card generation cards to fuel the Dragon Soul as an alternative win condition.  Lyra will become even more important in these builds, along with 'steal' copies of cards in your opponents deck.  Priest CAN take a turn off and still win.  It often does so because their cards are often reactive.  This will make Priest even stronger or at least more annoying to deal with.  it is another win condition for their Highlander decks.

Lastly, the Recruit keyword is very powerful and its a build around card.  I think too many people will dismiss it as slow or awkward.  In current deck builds, it is.  This keyword will require NEW decks to build around it.  Gather your party can be so powerful that it could put Warrior back in the upper tiers again.  They still need a few early game cards though so they can get to turn 6 of course.  But it depends, decks like Tempo Rogue can run over Warrior decks if all they do is Armor up in the early turns.

If on turn 6, I can recruit a Ysera or Ragnaros (in wild), that is extremely powerful, but slow.  I look forward to seeing Big Warrior become a thing, but that can only happen with early support cards so they can get to the late game.  Basically, they need a good turn 1 or 2 weapon to maintain board control.

Recruit Your Party is a powerful card, mostly because it's in Warrior and they typically can play a good control game.  Dead Man's Hand fixes the issue of you drawing your big minions, as you can shuffle them back in.

I picture a Recruit deck for Warrior to have 4 or 5 big minions and all removal and card draw for the rest.  Not sure how good it is, but that depends on the Meta as well as what support for Warrior is given.  Warrior lost a good weapon with the Fiery War Axe nerf for controlling the board early on.  I don't play FWA anymore because I would rather my opponent commit more to the board and Brawl or Fishes it away.

I think on the other hand, the Rin card is completely way too slow in our current Meta.  Even if there is support for the card, it would have to be a very powerful card, but then you have to draw both cards for the 'combo' to work.

For example, What if Warlock's legendary weapon was 'All spells cost you 3 less to play'

Then the Seals are fairly easy to pull off.  But even then, you need Rin first.  Have Rin die without getting silenced.  Stay alive against aggro.  Then draw and play the legendary weapon.

I think if you look back at all the 'Pro' videos, so many of them were wrong, or too quick to judge.  I also think that their judgements and videos influence the Meta more than we think.  If enough pro's says a card is bad, most people aren't going to play it because its not in a netdeck build.

Bonemare was easily the Dr Boom of the set.  You are getting a 3 mana 5/5 and giving another minion +4/+4 and Taunt.  And the card is common, which means that both in Arena and Constructed the card is bonkers.  Many of the pro's dismissed Bonemare and were completely wrong.

I play this game for fun, not for becoming pro or laddering to legend.  I neither have the time, nor the patience for such things.  But that doesnt mean a casual can't still evaluate cards better than pro's.

When you evaluate cards, you need to evaluate ALL of the cards together in a set, then combine it with all existing cards in the Meta, along with all the decks already in the Meta, combined with does any of the new released cards create new deck types or make old deck types stronger.  Evaluating ALL of that is not only impossible, but people will miss things and make mistakes.

Anduin Death Knight is so meta defining that it brought back the Highlander style deck.  There were people who thought that card was bad?  Those people shouldnt evaluate cards anymore for a living.

Essentially, it boils down to more options and more ways to play.

1. Custom Tavern Brawl creator - this is where you get to create a Tavern Brawl ruleset and have others join.  You can make it so that only those on your friends list can join or be given a passcode to play.

2. Tournament modes - for both Arena and Constructed.  whether this is a banned deck, last deck standing or any other combination.  They would keep track of wins and losses and perhaps even a bracket structure.

3. More game modes for Casual or Fun gameplay.  Examples in this thread are good, like a 60 card deck mode.  Or you can put 3 copies of a card in your deck instead.  Basically fun modes that let you try cards out.  The 'renting' thing sounds fun too, but call it TRY a Legendary mode (described below)

4. Try a Legendary Mode (Casual only) - You can add any 1 Legendary card to your deck that you don't currently own.  That Legendary will always be drawn on the turn of it's mana cost.  So a 3 cost Legendary would be drawn on turn 3.  A 8 mana legendary will be drawn on turn 8 and so forth.  The deck will be disabled in all other modes.

I have plenty of gold laying around.  I payed hard cash when the game first came out and once or twice more for a few expansions, but realized it wasnt worth it.  I just save my gold, buy the occasional packs or do an arena run.  I have 8k gold saved up and that was after i purchased Karazhan with gold.

I understand that Blizzard wants a gold eating mode for people like me (and other streamers like Kripp).  I would take part in this tournament and sink my gold into it for fun, but there are 2 reasons I wont.  Although if they changed how the reward structure works, I would reconsider.

So Blizzard, listen up.  You wont get my gold unless the following changes are made...

1.  For this Brawl, offer a card back.  Even if its a one time only thing.  For the first Heroic Brawl.  Everyone whom enters gets the card back.  Simple as that.

2.  Allow the pack rewards to be chosen from any set.  i dont want WOTOG packs anymore.  I would prefer some of the older sets to complete my collection.

3.  Offer other rewards that are non standard.  For example, how about a hero portrait?  I dont have the warrior one yet, but with 12 wins, instead of the golden legendaries, I get to choose a hero portrait instead.

Most high level players already have most or all of the cards they need.  The rewards here doesnt do much to help them out.  Allowing choices for 12 wins or anything above 7 wins would encourage me to try.

Most of my arena runs these days ends around 7 wins.  I have a feeling if I did this Heroic Tavern Brawl, it would be more like 5 wins.  Not really interested in that at all.  Thanks, but no thanks Blizzard.

There are 2 main issues with the current state of Standard and its not Aggro or Yogg.  Rather its the ability to refill your board after a board clear.  Or have sticky minions that come back after a board clear.

1. Deathrattle (and the lack of silence being fairly costed)

2. Refilling your board with cheap and efficient creatues or 'free' creatures.  Thats the Shaman taunt card and the Mana Giant and a few others.

That makes the mid-range aggressive decks able to lose their board and keep on trucking.  My issue when I play decks is that even after clearing their board and playing minions, they keep bringing them.  Then they get tired of trading and when it gets to late game they spam the board and hope you dont have your board clears.  I just played a game against shaman where I was controlling the board with my Secret Mage deck the whole game.  Playing minions and spells and forcing him to trade, as you dont leave a mage the flame waker and other good minions.  Eventually we get to late game, he spams the board and I cant find my last board clear or I win on the spot.

Either way, I believe that removing Silence was a big mistake and allowing for creatures to spawn from other minions far too often is another mistake.  Silence effects are fair and don't kill the creature.  Sure you lose your deathrattle effect, but you still have the creature.  I actually play 1 Mass Dispel in most of my priest decks because deathrattle decks are so rampant.

I personally no longer play Wild at all.  I don't want to deal with Dr. Boom ever again.  Or Shredder.  And of course Secret Paladin.

While I don't like playing against aggro Shaman, I play control decks that have a good game against them.  I simply lose to Hunter and all the deathrattle minions.  Clearing a board multiple times is difficult at best, but it means you are playing not to lose, and you never actually get to play your win conditions.

Also, keep in mind the stats of minions is not linear at all and skewed towards the lower drops.

What is a typical 1 drop stats?  2/1 or 1/2?  Some of them are even 1/3 with Taunt.  That is 4 points worth of stats.  It's why Leper Gnome was nerfed.  If you don't remove Leper Gnome early, you take persistent 2 damage and then another 2 when it dies.  That's alot of damage from a 1 drop.

Name a 1 drop spell that can put pressure on your opponent and potentially lose you the game if not answered?

What are the stats of 2 drops?  2/3 or 3/2?  That's 5 points of stats.  And 3 drops?  3/4 or 4/3?

If you look at the general mana cost of minions and their total stats, you get a general progression.

For 1 mana, you get 3 or 4 stat points or power.  For 1 mana additional, you get 2 points.  As you go up the mana cost, you can see that your mana cost to stat point ratio slows down.  It means that low cost minions with high stat counts are MUST remove cards or they will beat you down before you can find an answer.

The stats are not linear because if that were true, an 8 drop would have stats of roughly 24.  You are talking a 12/12.  4 drops would be 6/6.

So the point is 1 and 2 drops are very powerful and dictate the pace of the early game.  If you cannot answer a board full of 1 and 2 drops, you already lost the game by turn 5 when most board clears are hopefully going to help.

But if all you do is react to your opponent and play a board clear, they can simply fill the board up again next turn, as you pass the tempo and initiative back to them.

Not at all.  War Axe is too strong.  I was throwing ideas around.  I think the idea is strong but has to be balanced.  Right now, weapons are too strong as they can go face.  I would prefer weapons to be changed that they CANNOT go face by default and only specially created weapons can.

Then the ritual of steel is a persistent card removal with War Axe instead of 3 free damage to the face every turn.

Another Ritual I thought of is...

Warlock spell, Ritual of Summoning, cost 2

At the end of your turn, put a random Demon into your hand and lose life equal to its mana cost.

OR

Druid spell, Ritual of the Moon, cost 4

At the beginning of your turn, gain a mana crystal.  At the end of your turn, lose a mana crystal.

What is Hearthstone and how does it play?  Sure, it's a digital card game, but it's also a game with many dedicated fans and players.

If you define how Hearthstone is played and how it was meant to be played, then you can better understand how to fix the issues that people have with it and improve the game overall, including the tournament scene.

1.  Hearthstone is supposed to be an interactive minion based game.  You are meant to trade minions back and forth to gain an advantage and eventually win through resource trading and minion control.  If you agree with this or want to expand this definition, please go for it.

2.  Hearthstone is a digital game that can be enhanced, changed and modified in ways that a physical card game cannot do.  This is a GREAT advantage that should be exploited even more.  You can explore card game mechanisms that physical cards games simply cannot do or wont do because of the tedium of it.

3.  Hearthstone is about momentum and tempo.  Control decks are very hard to play at a high percentage rate because more aggressive based decks are usually straightforward to pilot.  (I didn't say unskilled, just less thinky)  Tempo is gained through favorable minion trades and spell removal.  The player who goes first has the advantage the whole game because of this fact.  New minions and spells should be introduced to balance this.

How do you improve Hearthstone if you want to keep the core of the above definitions?

a.  Introduce better spells and minions that slow the game down.  Or force the players to trade WITH minions instead of going 'face' all the time.  Taunt is not enough.  Spells that clear the board should be more powerful or happen a turn earlier.  Board clears should NOT require 2 or 3 card combos.  That dilutes the decks and makes the 1 card pointless or less powerful otherwise.  Wild Pyromancer is a great enabler to board clears for low health minions, but that means its not a 2 cost minion.  Can you afford NOT to play a 2 drop and skip your turn against Shaman or Warlock?

b.  Introduce 'Enchantment' based spells so that you have an ongoing permanent effect throughout the game.  You lose tempo for casting it initially (as it has no impact on the board and its not a minion), but you gain the tempo back in the long run.  As an example, Priests could get an Enchantment spell that is the following:  (Maybe even give them a cool name type like Rituals instead)

Priest spell, Ritual of Healing, cost 2

At the start of your turn, gain 1 Health for every minion the opposing player controls.

OR

Warrior spell, Ritual of Steel, cost 3

At the start of your turn, your weapon gains 1 Durability.

OR

Paladin spell, Ritual of Battle, cost 4

At the end of your turn, summon a 1/1 recruit for every minion the opposing player has.

c.  Neutral spells and Neutral minions that force the game to be more interactive.  Instead of changing the game at its core, introduce minions that do it instead.  This introduces counter play if a particular deck is too strong.  Situational cards and minions that give you a nice advantage or leg up.

Peaceful Activist, cost 3, 0/5

Taunt.  If this minion is attacked or targeted with spells, no other minions can attack this turn. (this includes your own spell buffs as well)

Neutral spell, cost 0

Cannot play this card if you attacked or played another card this turn.  This turn, gain mana crystals equal to the number of minions the opposing player has.  The extra mana crystals can only be used for casting spells this turn.