Hearthpwn

Quote from TardisGreen >>

Quote from asteroidm >>

Quote from TardisGreen >>

Quote from emkarab >>

it's not whining. It's just stating a fact - aggro and Deathrattle Rogue create meta unplayable for dragons. One can be sad or happy about it.

Try again.

Here are the some of the reasons why we don't see that many dragon decks.

• deck expense
• skill requirement
• Galakrond, the Nightmare/Tempest/Wretched/Unbreakable

But the most important reason of all:

• the Dragons and their synergy cards are just not that good.

Lets start with one of the first cards revealed, Breath of Dreams.  67.9% of the "distinguished" Hearthpwn community rated the cards as "meta-defining".  LULZ.  Over 2/3 of the community were dead wrong.  The card is Wild Growth together with draw a card, but conditionally.  And the condition is huge.  Druid has very limited access to Dragons and a spotty history with that tribe.  But aside from that, the biggest payoff from WG on curve was a strong play on turn four.  But there is no more Oaken Summons or Branching Paths.  Druid just doesn't have a particularly strong play on four even if they pull off BoD on turn two.

Many of the other cards follow a similar trend.  Frizz Kindleroost (meta defining according to 69.6% of those participating in the poll, more LULZ), is underperforming and players are considering dropping the card from their decks.  Ysera 2 is too slow (so sad about this).  Nozdormu 2 is even less playable than Nozdormu 1.  Maygos 2 is OK, but not broken enough to make a real impact.  Likewise for many of the other Dragon and dragon-synergy cards.

Meanwhile, Devoted Maniac, (labeled as Bad by 47.6%, and Dust by 18.9%) is the most played card in Standard.  Its an auto include in every Galakrond deck, and every Galakrond deck save Priest is broken.

In Constructed play, "good" cards just don't cut it.  The cards (and the decks) have to do extremely broken things to be competitive. Dragons are good, but not good enough.

Your "facts" are in error, just like the ridiculously wrong evaluations of many of  the cards from this x-pac.

 ...huh?  I mean some of your points are completely salient but in no way refute the person you quoted.  Some I disagree with though.  In truth you are both right in some ways. 

Firstly, what do you mean druid has limited access to dragons?  This is simply not true and the condition is hardly huge.  It's stupid easy to meat.  Also twighlight drake is a power turn 4 play after playing a ramp card that ALSO drew you a card.  Druid's issue is, it's just too damn slow, even with the ramp.  Taking turn two to ramp against a pirate warrior is just very difficult proposition when they can essentially put up to 4 minions on their turn two while literally generating more value in their hand.  Anyhow that is just an example.  My point is that the card is good, druid dragons are good, BUT they aren't fast enough in this meta.  I think the quoted person to be right in this case.

I think your assessment of Frizz, Nozdormu and Ysera are spot on.  Too slow.  Which is why I am confused about why you are arguing with the quoted person.  If something is two slow, what sort of decks punish the shit out of that?  Tempo and Aggro, the two decks types he listed. (as DR rogue is a tempo deck). 

As far as devoted maniac goes, the card was rated bad when people were still fuzzy on how Invoke would work.  It's why I rated it badly.  Also it's in every Galakrond deck because no one gets more than 8 invoke cards.  It essentially HAS to be in there.  If I had the option I would play different invoke cards I would. That being said now that I understand how the card works I'd rate it as playable.  Cause it is.

I guess I just don't know why you are arguing with him.  Good aggro decks make it hard to play  slower type decks.  Aggro beats midrange.  Dragon Druid is midrange.  When the better decks are aggro and Tempo then yeah, midrange is gonna suffer badly.  You can take what would otherwise be strong cards and they become a LOT worse.

 You missed the point.

Quote from Jonesy978 >>

Dragon decks are missing just a few cards to make them truly viable. The problem right now is that every Galakron deck (except Priest) has a very powerful late game. The only way to counter that is with a very strong early game... hence, the rise of aggro decks.

Dragon decks are good mid-range decks but lack both a very strong start and a powerful late game. I really wanted Dragon Paladin to work but it simply doesn't have enough good early game Dragons (and no 1-drops) and no late game. Indeed, the Dragon legendary cards for Paladin are complete trash.

So how can that deck compete with Galakrond on turn 7 or 8? It can't.

I have been trying Highlander Dragon decks recently and they're more competitive, because Dragonqueen Alexstrasa alone is very powerful. But even then, it's at best Tier 2.

 This.

Dragon decks are, of course, vulnerable to Aggro.  But they aren't very good against the Galakrond decks.

The most popular decks in the game include Galakrond Warrior, Galakrond Rogue, Galakrond Shaman, and Galakrond Warlock.  Some of these have Highlander and non-Highlander sub-variants.  Collectively, they make up about 36% of the Meta across all ranks.  Most are all Tier 1/2 decks; none are "aggro".

The Dragon decks are simply inferior.  Not by a lot.  But in between getting beat up by Aggro AND having less than stellar matchups vs the Galakrond decks, they are hard to climb with.  And considering how expensive they are, it's no surprise that aren't particularly popular.

Correlation =/= causation.  At least not in totality.  I mean I am not sure why you go out of your way to mention Galakrond decks to be the issue but ignore the even MORE populace aggro and Tempo decks.  Pirate Warrior, Facehunter, Token Druid, Deathrattle Rogue.

Like I said, MY point was I don't know why you were arguing with the guy telling him he was wrong.  So YOU missed what I was saying.  You are BOTH right.  Galakrond, Tempo, AND aggro are THE most populace decks and ALL of them are good against Dragons.  

I'll reiterate, you were both right but you seem so hellbent on being right at the cost of others you didn't stop to realize that neither of  you are wrong.  

Quote from TallAr92 >>

If youre looking for true fun then switch to another card game. HS is for kids and aggro players.

 Some would argue that video games are for kids.  I also don't give their opinions any real value either.  That being said, I am VERY interested int he Legends of Runeterra game.

I have returned to HS proper after spending the last two expansions in only the solo adventure or the new battleground modes.  It simply hasn't been fun.  However I was excited for the xpac.  I pre-purchased and everything.  This may be an unpopular opinion but I am having a blast.  the meta isn't perfect, it's also, at least to my limited recollection, not nearly half as worse as others.  

At any rate I play a lot of different decks but my personal favorites Tree Druid, Big Dragon Druid, and pretty much any mage deck.  This is relevant only in that maybe someone can tell me if it's the specific deck type that is causing this?  I have been friended and at least 10 times and told "fuck you" or some variation of.  Now I am not salty about this, I played league for years so this is baby land frolics.  Just concerned.  The community was always one of my favorite things about HS.  In previous days I might get 10 fried request all season long and at least 50% were pleasant people who wanted to either trade deck ideas or just to say GG.  

Has anyone else experienced this or is this just some real life variance?

Quote from Ace1a >>

Looks like it will be pirate warrior, face hunter and mech paladin that will be needing nerfs next. Blizz might wait for the adventure to be out first. Galakrond Shaman has been knocked down to tier 2 due to both nerfs and aggro. Maybe Blizz can hold off on nerfing shaman again and see what happens when Shudderwock rotates out this spring. Faceless Corruptor does need to be bumped to 6 mana or become 3/4s

 You have got to stop constantly asking for nerfs man.  Okay technically you don't "have to".  I can't make you do shit.  But 1-2 decks will ALWAYS rise to the top, ALWAYS.  There will never be a perfect meta, it's fucking pipe dream.  MTG has been doing this shit for decades and I have been around for all of it and never once in it's long long history did they have a perfectly balanced meta.  

And lastly it's super hard to take ANY suggestion you make seriously considering you suggested that Galakrond Shaman was DOA, then turned around and yelled that it needed nerfs right away, only then then to suggest the nerfs WEREN'T ENOUGH just to be dead wrong again!  Faceless corrupter is very good, but it's not broke AF like it used to be and that is fine.

Quote from FierceMonkey >>

Quote from NLbouncyknight >>

Quote from Random_Huffer >>

Dont know why you complaining. Aggro was nearly unplayable for a very long time now. Glad its back so i dont have to play 30 Minute Matches anymore.

 whut you makin a joke right combo priest ,evolve shamaan, murlock shamaan,murlock palla it was meta always gggro is always crushing metas 

 I dont know if i would consider those "aggro". Maybe more tempo based... Tempo is all about the value. Aggro is go face hard and fast.

 I don' t know how they can call combo priest "aggro" when it's deck type is right in the name.  Evolve shaman also VERY much not aggro.

For anyone who is confused.  Aggro just plays quick, low cost minions without thought forcing  you to have the answer, and if you don't, you die.  Tempo on the other hand, like a number of the decks mentioned above, looks for cards that can create big tempo shifts, where your turn to turn plays eventually overwhelm the opponent over the course of a game.  aggro decks don't look for tempo swings, they want to grab tempo early and kill you before they can loose it. 

An example of a good "Tempo" card is Vilespine Slayer.  This card removes tempo from your opponents board and places tempo on your board with a 3/4.  Aggro doesn't care if  you have played a higher "tempo" card than them.  For example aggro plays a 2/1.  The opponent plays a 1/3 with rush in response and trades.  Technically the 1/3 rush is higher tempo, but aggro gives no shits.  They will just play more minions into that 1/3 trying to eek out as much damage as they can and hopefully kill the opponent before they can stabilize through their higher tempo or defensive plays.

Quote from FierceMonkey >>

Quote from asteroidm >>

Quote from FierceMonkey >>

Quote from NLbouncyknight >>

Quote from Random_Huffer >>

Dont know why you complaining. Aggro was nearly unplayable for a very long time now. Glad its back so i dont have to play 30 Minute Matches anymore.

 whut you makin a joke right combo priest ,evolve shamaan, murlock shamaan,murlock palla it was meta always gggro is always crushing metas 

 I dont know if i would consider those "aggro". Maybe more tempo based... Tempo is all about the value. Aggro is go face hard and fast.

 I don' t know how they can call combo priest "aggro" when it's deck type is right in the name.  Evolve shaman also VERY much not aggro.

For anyone who is confused.  Aggro just plays quick, low cost minions without thought forcing  you to have the answer, and if you don't, you die.  Tempo on the other hand, like a number of the decks mentioned above, looks for cards that can create big tempo shifts, where your turn to turn plays eventually overwhelm the opponent of the course of a game.  aggro decks don't look for tempo swings, they want to grab tempo early and kill you before they can loose it. 

An example of a good "Tempo" card is Vilespine Slayer.  This card removes tempo from your opponents board and places tempo on your board with a 3/4.  Aggro doesn't care if  you have played a higher "tempo" card than them.  For example aggro plays a 2/1.  The opponent plays a 1/3 with rush in response and trades.  Technically the 1/3 rush is higher tempo, but aggro gives no shits.  They will just play more minions into that 1/3 trying to eek out as much damage as they can and hopefully kill the opponent before they can stabilize through their higher tempo or defensive plays.

 So my version was a TLDR of yours, lol. Glad we were on the same page though.

Yep, precisely.  I felt I should lay it out somewhat as people obviously don't seem to understand what aggro means.

Quote from Jonesy978 >>

Is Fleshshaper going to make the cut still? It's much harder to get it out early now. And against slower decks (that don't flood the board with minions), you may not get it out at all. Worth it?

 Very probably not.  The more I think about it this nerf is rough against everything but decks that flood the board.  It's more than just "getting" it out a little later as trades happen constantly.  This card was super easy to get out on 3-4 regularly.  Now at those same points it'll be 5-6 mana instead of 3-4 and if any trades happen, as they very regularly do, then it makes it even harder to develop a board state for it.  Making the idea that you just need a "few more turns" potentially wrong most of the time. 

lol people wanted shaman put in the ground.  I think the issue here is unreal expectations.

Quote from user-13725786 >>

Quote from Tibainium >>

Faceless Corruptor nerf is not as big as I expected, its still going to be insanely good

 Yes, but don't underestimate 2 extra dmg. It does matter. Druid has Crystal Stag which has a reasonably low requirement on it and does not require a sacrifice of any other minions and it sees almost no play. 

Don't get me wrong, I agree it's still a good card and will be run in decks with tokens! It just won't be constructed busted levels good anymore. Just as an example one common power-play was killing a Shield of Galakrond, can't do that and leave a 5/4 anymore. 1-dmg does matter in a lot of situations.

 This this this.  1 less attack makes a pretty big difference.  It can no longer cleanly trade into what is likely the most commonly played taunt card right now is pretty big.  

Anything with five health will  now require both hits which is a pretty big damn deal.  Here is a list of other stuff with 5 health that are seeing some amount of play that that this card can no longer cleanly trade with forcing the attack with both copies and in some cases is essentially a 2 for 1.

Cobalt Spellkin,

Crazed Netherwing

Rotten Applebaum

Necrium Apothecary

Dragonbane

Chenvaala

Skybarge

Waxadred

Anubisath Defender

Big Ol' Whelp

Cumulo-Maximus

Chronobreaker

Bandersmosh

and obviously anything with more than five health.

I am having a good time myself.  Don't get me wrong Shaman is real good right now, I can't deny that but I don't feel any deck is so damn oppressive that I am not having fun.  To my mind nothing has been as bad as Undertaker Hunter back in the day.  Big priest felt more disgusting to play against even.  

Just me though.  

Oh and I have been playing tempo type warrior deck with that looks to control the board in zoo like way then burst after the galakrond turn with chargers.  Been playing an aggresive mid range hero power hunter.  A tempo rogue, tree druid and swarm lock.  I won't deny I lose to shaman about 60% of the time and I play a lot of shamans but I never feel it's unwinable.

I do get annoyed a bit with shamans but not because the deck is too OP (though it is OP just not criminally so) but because I loathe net decking personally.  One of my favorite things growing up was playing MTG at different comic book shops which all had their own little metas.  Experimentation was encouraged and fun.  Not so much with HS unfortunately.  That being said I am still seeing some experimentation so I enjoy playing at the start of a new xpac.

Okay. You're selling me on secret paladin a little more.

Psychic Scream, Shadow Visions, Eternal Servitude, Shadow Essence, Lesser Diamond Spellstone, Shadowreaper Anduin, Spirit Lash, Radiant Elemental, Lyra the Sunshard, Tar Creeper, The Lich King, and Master Oakheart are all rotating out but somehow, this buffs big priest.

ok. 

You might be offensive, but certainly not funny.

Expectation: turn 5 Myras, turn 6 coin+Nomi, win

Result: turn 5 do nothing, turn 6 fill the board with vanilla 6/6 which don't affect the board at all while your opponent gets to SMOrc you for free

Especially with all the low-cost Taunts such as Tar Creeper or Saronite Chain Gang leaving I fail to see an actual use.

You people aren't seeing the big picture! This may not be as value oriented as pain or death, but it's SO FUCKING FLEXIBLE. No matter what stage of the game, if you draw this, you can use it. It's SO FUCKING GOOD.

Solid... just plain solid.  NOT extraordinary, but will find it's way into decks

Thanks for the support!  There's a LOT that goes on behind the scenes and there's an entire team of people that make it work.  We always appreciate the kudos!

I just wanted to show FluxFlashor, Zence, and the entire Hearthpwn appreciation for making this reveal season truly amazing! You uploaded high quality images of each card as soon as they were revealed (way better than reddit), you provided amazing countdowns so I always new when I needed to get on hastily to see the latest cards, and you continued to provide a place for all users to discuss how overpowered the new druid cards are. You make my experience of Hearthstone better and I am sure many others. 

On the behalf of myself and I am sure many others: Thank You!

The only deck that wants this effect is Zoo and if Vulgar Homunculus isn't good enough to convince you not to play Prince Keleseth then neither is this. This might even be a good card but unfortunately, because of Keleseth, it won't see play.