Hearthpwn

Quote from Teuuun >>

Skeletal Dragon is actually way overtuned. It should cost one more mana, or not have taunt. Compare this card's value to cards available to other classes, and you see it's just not fair.

If we compare it to only 7-mana class minions from the same set, Skeletal Dragon wouldn't even be top two. Priestess of Fury and Bloodboil Brute say hello. So yeah, it's absolutely in line with what other classes are getting. It's a power creep on Ysera like stated above, sure, but that card was already miles too slow to see play anyway. 

I guess some people just don't want priest, a notoriously bad class in HS history, to have any good cards? And I don't really play much priest.

I think CW with no clear win condition is in a pretty bad spot right now. There are so many decks (rogue, priest in particular) that can generate near-infinite levels of value, and you'll probably have a tough time against hunter and DH without Risky Skipper and Armorsmith.

Quote from AnduinWrynn >>

And then Demon Hunter (DH) was born, a deck with basically no rng that relies entirely on skill and deckbuilding.

Card draw is still rng, and DH draws way to many cards for an aggressive class. Which again, can lead to snowballing early games with no possible answer that, to me, feels just as bad as getting high rolled by a rogue discovering DQA in the late game.

And for an entirely new class in a new meta, we've mostly just seen the one deck with fairly minor variations. So that's a no on the deckbuilding, as well .

And if skill = influence of decisions and meta/game knowledge on outcome of matches, then a deck which aims to always curve out and do maximum face damage falls pretty low on the scale.

But at least "Demon Hunter" was right in that sentence.

I find you rarely want to ramp on t1 against any deck. You definitely want to be more lenient with the ramp against aggro, but I often still want to save Biology Project for turns it can be utilized right away (IE. as a pseudo Innvervate). Remember that it's not a dead card later, as it can serve as a third (and forth) innervate effect once you reach 10 mana. It's also an Innervate that works with Ysiel.

I'm sure there are other key cards for key matchups - but I'm usually looking for Oaken Summons in all matchups, and then also removal against aggro classes. Never keep the combo cards.

Quote from joey_jojo_48 >>

Quote from SirJohn13 >>

There is one case where the hero power adds massive value for 1 mana: Warglaives of Azzinoth. 1 mana = +4 total damage on your board clearing

Oh for sure, that's a very powerful combo. But there are other powerful combos with hero powers too, such as Hunter with Phase Stalker, Dragonbane, or Toxic Reinforcements, and idk I don't think the combo with Warglaives of Azzinoth is that out of line comparatively. 

Hunter's hero power is 2 mana though, so whether or not to use that hero power over a card in your hand is going to be a dilemma so much more often.

Quote from Unhappytimes >>

The only class legendary that is played regularly (in almost all cases) is Edwin and now Altruis.

What? Sure man, as long as you don't count Metamorphosis, Kayn, Zixor, Dragonbane, Veranus, Brann, Flik, Hanar, Ancharrr, Astromancer, Malygos Aspect, Reno, Akama and Catrina Muerte, who are all played on the regular in decent or good meta decks...

Quote from Monxo >>

I think that the card that killed demons whilst healing (dont remember the name), was a great counter to them. They just need to fix the stupid Jaraxxus mechanic, and that would be ok. 

Sacrificial Pact isn't (by far) the reason Jaraxxus isn't played. He's just been way power creeped on with time, so that he's just not good anymore.

Murloc paladin doesn't have Glavebound or Priestess, though. Or Kayn. Or Altruis. Or Metamorphosis. Or Warglaives. Or a 1-mana hero power that deals face damage. You see my point? Murloc pala needs to snowball early to win. Tempo DH doesn't. Which is why it's doubly absurd that paladin seemingly isn't allowed to draw cards at all anymore - and DH can basically have as many cards as it wants.

I too had that experience with Skull when i tried out Big DH, that it could get "stuck in the middle" with more expensive cards. That isn't the case with tempo DH, though. And while rogue certainly has its issues as well, it has more bad matchups/counters. And my core problem with the deck is still:

Aggro decks should run out of steam at some point, if they can't close the game out somewhere in the early- or mid game.

That's their essential weakness as an archetype, as far as I see it. And it doesn't apply to tempo DH.

I'm not saying rogue can't get away with playing their invoke cards - they definitely can, and Galakrond is played in pretty much all rogue decks for that reason. But c'mon, none of the invoke cards are "GOOD" in any isolated sense. They are only good in that they set up a more powerful Galakrond, on their own (stats and effect) they are considerably below average for their mana cost.

But yeah, I'm wasn't saying those things you mentioned aren't powerful when they come together. I'm just saying they aren't without their requirements. Card draw effects for DH on the other hand, with outcast being mostly negligible in tempo DH, are.

Power creep is a thing, for sure.

But note that all of the examples you just listed either require considerable setup and deck restriction (Galakrond), are conditional (Rotnest Drake and Stunner), or a multiple-card combination like warrior with Risky Skipper + Armorsmith and/or Wrangler. That's not the case for DH - unless you cast outcast, which can hardly be considered much of a condition in this sort of deck.

Taken singularly, I agree that Skull is the only clear nerf candidate. The problem in my eyes is the compound effect when an aggro deck is afforded 6 copies of card draw that it can viably run (and options for even more, if it would like them).

Aggro pala decks, which has reigned at tier one in many metas in various builds, always relied on two copies of one draw effect. First it was Divine Favor, then Crystology. That meant it could run out of steam easily, if those two copies weren't drawn. Same has usually been true for other aggo decks, too. But DH, due to the reason stated above, just doesn't run out of steam. And even though the nerfs have dealt with a lot of the tempo issues with DH, they're still fundamentally an aggro deck that can get through most of its deck with ease, most games, not going in to top deck mode until way later than other aggressive decks do. And that's what annoys me.

Quote from user-24703847 >>

Quote from wg15 >>

They said it's for their class design because they want an aggressive class.

They cater what the casual players want.

 Cards games need aggressive classes... deal with it.

Aggro player spotted. My condescending friend, we know the game needs aggressive decks - but maybe, just maybe, it'd be nice if they weren't so everpresent amongst tier one decks.

For fans or mains of a more control, midrange or combo-oriented strategy, it's understandably annoying when Blizzard pushes something so overtly OP geared towards aggro, because this game already lends itself to aggressive decks. Remember, we're having this discussion in the context of DH having been nerfed twice in a couple of months after its arrival... and still there are cries for more nerfs. IMO, it's because they haven't really touched on the core of the issue, which is the laughably superior access DH has to card draw. I'm fine with them hitting face, I'm fine with the class/tempo DH being tier one. I'm not fine with an aggro deck that seemingly can't run out gas, no matter how hard it might try.

Quote from RushingMonkey >>

And you don't think that if a card is good/played or playable matters? What's even the point of discussing about the quantity? No because Pala for example has EIGHT card draws if you just look at the collection. The issue is, well, aside from Hand of A'dal they either don't have a home or just straight up suck lol.

You're misreading my argument. I didn't say quality doesn't matter - but neither did I say the less played cards are bad, in DH's case. You're telling me Spectral Sight wouldn't be more or less a staple in most aggro/tempo decks for any other class than DH (where it is, yes, falling out of most lists)?

I take that is indicating DH is way over the line in terms of card drawing ability for an intuitively aggressive class. Imagine Blizzard giving hunter any real card draw outside of Tracking.

Quote from EternalHS >>

Quote from Ravza >>

I guess that guy who thought DH has three drawing cards and not six didn't come back. It annoys me when you get these amateur content creators with "HS" in their name peddling complete untruths. Too many people making content in plat/diamond games which just get it all wrong. They probably think doing 15 face damage on turn 6 while clearing the board off the back of a single legendary card is ok. They are celebrating finally reaching D5 as they play their broken class badly.

The only people who seem to think DH are ok are the ones who have never been legend. It's beyond broken when a good player plays it. It's oppressive and unfair and practically unbeatable unless you play egg warrior.

 https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/212005-group-therapy-need-to-blow-off-steam-mega-salty?page=837

Wiggy, as apparent content creators we should collab on our platinum podcast next week, ok?

I'm down. Currently stuck between Plat 4-5, with no end in sight.

Quote from RushingMonkey >>

Oh come fucking on now. The guy clearly meant the three card draws currently run in any Tempo DH list - Crimson Runner, Chaos Strike and Skull - not counting the copies. Most lists don't run Spectral Sight anymore, Consume Magic was hardly ever seen (in tempo/aggro anyway) and absolutely nobody has run Feast of Souls since week one.

Yes it may be still too much, yes Skull is still too strong, but surely you guys have better arguments than these petty technicalities or "shut up you're not a legend player hurr durr"

In no way was that clear from what he said - quite the opposite: "It has three card draw cards which is around the same number as other classes have (some more and some less) so ti doesn't have "too much card draw". Class is in the thread title. It's in his post.

And who's being technical, if the argument is "Yes, DH have too much card draw, but hey - they don't play all of it"?

I agree about the "legend"-argument. Not one I would use either, mostly because I'm not always legend myself at the end of the month.