Funny respons. Indeed no Department of Game Investigation.....yet. Look at Google, MS en Apple. Big tech are scrutinized on different levels by state actors and international regulations. The game industry is very big. In the EU pricing loot boxes is forbidden. Need to get accustomed to the idea to scrutinize on the level of MMR and RNG.
You seen to be a firm believer that Blizzard is not rigging. Funny. you don't need any proof to believe in holy Blizzard. It's called religious.Maybe Blizzard is a god for the multitudes.
You want me to prove Blizzard is NOT rigging the system? You know that it's not possible to prove a negative, right? I don't consider Blizzard "holy." I consider it a sensible, risk-adverse corporation that understands there's no meaningful upside to manipulating the MMR or RNG, and a huge downside.
As for investigations, those are typically launched based on, wait for it, EVIDENCE. You know, the stuff you can't be bothered to collect? "Everybody knows" is not evidence. Hideous streaks of bad luck are not evidence. Deranged ideas of evil corporations trying to scam $20 off you is not evidence. Actual hard numbers are. Do you draw card X more often against one deck than another? Does your opponent draw his card more often than percentages say he should? That's real evidence. And you've got none.
So you consider them 'a sensible, risk adverse corporation.' Reason why you not thinking they are rigging the game. I like your gullibility and lack of critical thinking - quod non. Remember Enron 2001? A showcase of financial frauds:https://www.cbsnews.com/media/top-14-financial-frauds-of-all-time/
(showcase only an example among many others based on all thrusting types like you).
Again, you draw your knowledge of corporate behavior from stupid Hollywood movies and even stupider politicians. There are hundreds of large corporations out there, and the vast majority of them obey, to the best of their ability, the law. You're focusing on the exceptions. (As an aside, frequently, when these firms do get penalized for something, it's the result of legitimate disagreements over how to interpret an existing regulation, not a result of a company saying "We know this is illegal, but we're doing it anyway." The government's regulations are often quite confusing.) I never said the company was full of saints. It's got nothing to do with trust: it's entirely a matter of the company's own self-interest. The gaming industry is extraordinarily competitive, and there's substantial personnel movement between firms. So people who used to work in senior positions at Blizzard are now likely at all its competitors. Why wouldn't they anonymously leak this fraud to the government or media? It would crush Blizzard and help its competitors. Rigging the RNG is not something that can be done by only a few people: it would be widely known among much of the development team. So why hasn't this come to light? The obvious answer: because it's not happening. The risk/ reward simply doesn't justify it.
Again, show me evidence, tough guy. Actual data. If it's sooooo obvious, it shouldn't take you long. Truth is, you can't.
People play in casual, rather than ladder, for several reasons. Maybe they just got a new legendary that finally lets them play a "netdeck" (stupid phrase, IMO), and they want to test it out. Maybe they don't have a lot of time and might have to quit midway through the game, and they'd rather not lose a star doing so. Maybe they don't want to think too hard about the game, and just want to play, get some gold, and then go to bed. Maybe they want to experiment with a change to a "netdeck." (Every one of those situations happens to me, regularly.)
A better choice would be a third mode that doesn't award gold for wins. That's where you can play a deck whose only win condition is a bizarre, 6 card combo. I doubt you'll find many people wanting to play there (which, to answer your question, is probably why Blizzard hasn't created it). But essentially punishing players for not wanting to play on ladder seems cruel.
It is very funny watching stranger regurgitate all the standard arguments, tinfoil hat, prove it, etc. Being a community manager and have to spend your days lying on a forum must be a sad existence.
If they're a community manager, they're doing a piss poor job. Imagine posting a total of 9 times in 4 years!!!
TallStranger, you're about to get fired. ;-)
Looks like I keep changing jobs: first I was secretly a Blizzard employee, sent here to make the deranged seem, well, deranged. Now I'm a community manager. Maybe tomorrow I can be an astronaut. Or a baseball player. Oh, or a treasure hunter!! ;-)
I should really just start rumors that these conspiracy theorists work for other gaming companies who are desperate to badmouth HS and cut into Blizzard's market share. Then I could demand that they "prove that they're not." That's the only "logic" that seems to work for the whack-jobs around here.
OMG so surprised about how naive people are... the same “I say whatever, without thinking” question again and again.......
here it goes as I had wrongly assumed that people had some brain, I was wrong (%ages are for example as you will probably stick on this point)
- let’s say there are 9 popular archetypes
- 3 have a 75% of winning against 3 other ones, three are 50%, three are 75% loss
- you play a game
- it matches you against one of the 75% chance win one, you win ( the other guy loses to clarify)
- the other guy then plays the next game, he wins ( Horray) as it matches him against the three his deck is good against
- your next 5 games are matches against decks that you have a 75% chance of losing, you lose the 4
- same happens to the other guy
- as a result, the percentage of winning COLLECTIVELY drops as matching follows a matrix approach
I cannot make it clearer so stop the naive “ so someone always wins the “ statement
Maybe I should be arguing with a toaster. Let's use your example. And, to simplify, let's assume that no one logs in or logs off HS over the course of the time you play the six games you mention here. You and your first opponent each go 2-4 over your first six games. (It's not clear by the way you wrote this, so I'm assuming the other guy's first win, game 2, is one of the five games you mention when you say "same happens to the other guy." If your first opponent in your example has played 7 games, he's 2-5.) Purely by mathematics, at least 1 person MUST have a winning record over those 6 games. You two are, collectively, 2 games below .500. Someone (and as many as 2 people) must be above .500. Period. And you have no explanation for how this is possible. Because your argument is absurd.
The only other way to read your argument is that you are claiming that, once you win a game, HS matches you with decks that are heavily favored against you. But, even then, for every game you drop below .500, someone must move a game above .500 (again, assuming no change in the population of players). And, again, your conspiracy theory can't account for that.
Ok it’s not really gambling to require an investigation so let’s not take it to extremes. However, Hooghout makes the same point as the one I made earlier...
the point they control is matchmaking and there is no need to view the source code, it’s obvious to most of us who are playing the game for a while. It became worse after the new ranking system. Blizzard wants you to lose some games by playing against archetypes that beat yours, this way you get hooked, spend more on packs etc. It’s gaming psychology and they are good at it
no one says they should not make money, it’s just a fact so telling us that it’s “random” is just a utopia
Funny, it's not obvious to me, and I've been playing this game since just before Blackrock Mountain. And you do know that if you get a crappy matchup, the other guy has gotten a great one, right? Why does Blizzard like him and hate you? Maybe he's one of us, you know, the secret Blizzard employees who are being paid to discredit all of you brave seekers of the truth.
Funny respons. Indeed no Department of Game Investigation.....yet. Look at Google, MS en Apple. Big tech are scrutinized on different levels by state actors and international regulations. The game industry is very big. In the EU pricing loot boxes is forbidden. Need to get accustomed to the idea to scrutinize on the level of MMR and RNG.
You seen to be a firm believer that Blizzard is not rigging. Funny. you don't need any proof to believe in holy Blizzard. It's called religious.Maybe Blizzard is a god for the multitudes.
You want me to prove Blizzard is NOT rigging the system? You know that it's not possible to prove a negative, right? I don't consider Blizzard "holy." I consider it a sensible, risk-adverse corporation that understands there's no meaningful upside to manipulating the MMR or RNG, and a huge downside.
As for investigations, those are typically launched based on, wait for it, EVIDENCE. You know, the stuff you can't be bothered to collect? "Everybody knows" is not evidence. Hideous streaks of bad luck are not evidence. Deranged ideas of evil corporations trying to scam $20 off you is not evidence. Actual hard numbers are. Do you draw card X more often against one deck than another? Does your opponent draw his card more often than percentages say he should? That's real evidence. And you've got none.
Remember Hearthstone is a children's game. If it was a game of adults we would consider the lack of balance, the mindless aggressive stupidity and the lack of (win condition) diversity unacceptable. Adults would demand furthermore an independent investigation to assess RNG and matchup being free of rigging.
That's utopia. Based on anecdotical experience of millions the question is not if the game is rigged, but when it will come to light. It's like the Higgs Boson. An elementary particle. Theorized in 1964, proven by experiment in 2012. Took a long time, but in the end everything comes to light.
It might surprise you, but there's this silly little thing called intellectual property. See, when someone spends substantial amounts of time and money creating a product (such as the MMR), they tend to not like the idea of other people, you know, reviewing it. Allowing outsiders access to the code is a great way to have it leaked. Once leaked, competitors will emulate/ refine it, and players/ hackers will exploit it.
And exactly who is going to do this "independent investigation" of the RNG? The government? You know there's no "Department of Game Investigation," right? Who's going to pay for it? You? If Blizzard paid for it, you'd reject the findings instantly.
If you and the rest of the tinfoil hat crowd want to do an investigation, go for it. Publicize your methodology, record your games so we know you're telling the truth, collect your data, and test your hypothesis. It's funny: every time someone dares you nuts to do this, you always find a reason not to. Or you play a few dozen games and pretend that proves anything. "I got 4 Galakrond rogues IN A ROW! RIGGGGGGGED!"
I find your signature amusing, since your questions lack courage and your answers lack depth.
It's a zero sum game dude. For every player who has a bad matchup, the other player has a good one. It is therefore impossible that most players have a bad matchup the majority of the time. Take off the tin foil hat and try to enjoy the game
Shhhhh. You're making sense. You must be part of the conspiracy.
Disingenous is the correct word, but it is funny how upset you get. I love that a brand new account just appears who has the same certainty and makes the same arguments as the 5k post accounts who went noticeably silent. Who again is going to sue them based on an interview from 2017? Blizzard just updated their matchmaker to make it more 'fun' 'engaging' or whatever euphamism blizzard is currently using for rigged.
Investors want profits, corporations exist, blizzard is currently going to court over their loot box systems, they give symposiums on how to use the matchmaker to maximize 'engagement'. You hang your argument on the dire consequences on what would happen if everyone found out. Bruh, the cat is out of the bag, it has been for Candy Crush, it is for EA, it is for Activision. The current state of matchmaking and game balance is an obvious attempt to stimulate spending, to believe anything else is foolishness. But it's ok bud, I know you are scared of this happening again
"Brand new account?" Look at my profile, genius. Do you see the place where it says "Member for 4 years?" That means I was here while you were in kindergarten. Or is it your deranged belief that I'm a "sleeper account" that only now, because you're onto us, has been turned on? ("Attention, Blizzard control. This is secret agent #3546, aka TallStranger. For the next two weeks, make sure that username tinfoilhatilluminati draws nothing but control Priests who rope every turn. We gotta get this guy off our tail. He knows too much.")
Notable you didn't address the specific quote from McCall. Probably because it's beyond your understanding. Let me type slower, so you can follow. Suppose I invest millions of dollars in a company that advertises its products as 100% natural. Company does well, so I'm happy. THEN, a senior manager comes out and admits that this claim is completely untrue, and always has been. Stock price plummets, and the feds start an investigation (false advertising, securities fraud, etc.). My investment loses 3/4 of its value overnight. Do you know how fast I'd be suing?
All it would take is one former Blizzard employee to reveal this fact to devastate the company. Those are facts. I'm sorry they don't line up with your fever swamp delusions about how big companies actually operate, but those of us with experience in the real world know better.
That said, I can't blame the others for giving up. You can't have a logical argument with someone who a) can't provide real evidence for his claim and b) insists his opponent prove a negative. They're better off trying to argue with their toaster.
I have listened to/read numerous statements regarding their game design theory and implementation and have never seen them say they don't manipulate RNG, in fact I have seen them often say that they do. Most recently I came across Rob Pardo talking about how they skewed the 'random' rewards in World of Warcraft away from true randomness to more frequently give the player what they needed.
I have often seen them refer to 'weighted' RNG in their discussions in regards to discover mechanics always with the goal of improving the player experience.
Blizzard likes to use generic terms like 'fun' and 'player engagement' when discussing manipulating their matchmaker to push toward that 50 percent win rate.
It is common practice in the industry, whether it be candy crush, clash royale, or whatever f2p game you are discussing that the games are engineered to encourage spending. What would get them into more trouble with investors, influencing match results or failing to do so at the cost of profits?
Overall, your stance seems pretty sure of yourself for one so naive......or disingenous.......
First off, can the "disingenuous" crap: I have no more connection to Blizzard than you do one of its competitors. Accusing me of being in on the vast, shadowy conspiracy to keep you from achieving the 85% win rate you so clearly deserve because of your awesome Hearthstone skill just shows that you're not capable of a reasoned argument. As for naive, trust me: I know more about how corporations behave than you do.
As for manipulating matchmaking see: http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/2177-is-matchmaking-rigged-max-mccall-explains-the, in which McCall clearly states that the MMR "doesn’t know what deck you’re playing, what deck you just played with or against, or anything else, except for your rating." The article is a few years old now, but that fact changes nothing. If this were a lie, Blizzard would still be liable, to the tune of tens of millions of dollars in fines, attorney fees, and out-of-court settlements. Clear enough for you? (Of course it won't be.)
As for investors, what they want is accurate information and a safe investment. In their view, if you're rigging the matchmaking, say so. If you're not, say so. But saying one thing and doing another? That ticks them off. And Hell hath no fury like an investment firm lied to. In addition, the marginal profit Blizzard would make by rigging the system is trivial compared to their total profits, and absolutely not worth the risk to market share or reputation. This isn't about Blizzard being "nice guys": honesty here is about cold, hard cash.
This is, I believe, only the second time I've ever posted here. I've read a dozen threads on this topic, but have refrained from commenting because it seems so utterly hopeless trying to convince people of painfully-obvious facts. THERE IS NO RNG MANIPULATION OF THE KIND BEING DISCUSSED HERE. Period. Slice of pi did a great job of explaining the fundamental flaws in the conspiracy argument. I'll only add one more: lawsuits.
Blizzard/ Activision is a publicly-traded company worth somewhere in the vicinity of $20 BILLION. They have stated publicly that they do not adjust/ tamper with the RNG. Do you understand the risk they are taking if they are lying about this? Numerous institutional investors (mutual funds, etc.) have invested in the company. If it were revealed that they WERE manipulating the RNG, the stock price would crash and every one of those investors would be suing them for providing false information that artificially inflated the stock price. And, by the way, the SEC would be on these guys in a heartbeat. All it would take is one angry ex-employee whistle blower to inflict massive financial to the company. For absolutely no meaningful economic benefit.
I realize this description doesn't match with the picture of corporations pushed forth by dumb Hollywood movies, but the truth is they are incredibly cautious in real life. They have no interest in making Bubba lose once again to a Galakrond rogue.
0
I think I must have accidentally reported my own post as spam. Not sure how I did that. It's:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/242658-serious-question-on-randomness?comment=99
0
Again, you draw your knowledge of corporate behavior from stupid Hollywood movies and even stupider politicians. There are hundreds of large corporations out there, and the vast majority of them obey, to the best of their ability, the law. You're focusing on the exceptions. (As an aside, frequently, when these firms do get penalized for something, it's the result of legitimate disagreements over how to interpret an existing regulation, not a result of a company saying "We know this is illegal, but we're doing it anyway." The government's regulations are often quite confusing.) I never said the company was full of saints. It's got nothing to do with trust: it's entirely a matter of the company's own self-interest. The gaming industry is extraordinarily competitive, and there's substantial personnel movement between firms. So people who used to work in senior positions at Blizzard are now likely at all its competitors. Why wouldn't they anonymously leak this fraud to the government or media? It would crush Blizzard and help its competitors. Rigging the RNG is not something that can be done by only a few people: it would be widely known among much of the development team. So why hasn't this come to light? The obvious answer: because it's not happening. The risk/ reward simply doesn't justify it.
Again, show me evidence, tough guy. Actual data. If it's sooooo obvious, it shouldn't take you long. Truth is, you can't.
0
People play in casual, rather than ladder, for several reasons. Maybe they just got a new legendary that finally lets them play a "netdeck" (stupid phrase, IMO), and they want to test it out. Maybe they don't have a lot of time and might have to quit midway through the game, and they'd rather not lose a star doing so. Maybe they don't want to think too hard about the game, and just want to play, get some gold, and then go to bed. Maybe they want to experiment with a change to a "netdeck." (Every one of those situations happens to me, regularly.)
A better choice would be a third mode that doesn't award gold for wins. That's where you can play a deck whose only win condition is a bizarre, 6 card combo. I doubt you'll find many people wanting to play there (which, to answer your question, is probably why Blizzard hasn't created it). But essentially punishing players for not wanting to play on ladder seems cruel.
4
Looks like I keep changing jobs: first I was secretly a Blizzard employee, sent here to make the deranged seem, well, deranged. Now I'm a community manager. Maybe tomorrow I can be an astronaut. Or a baseball player. Oh, or a treasure hunter!! ;-)
I should really just start rumors that these conspiracy theorists work for other gaming companies who are desperate to badmouth HS and cut into Blizzard's market share. Then I could demand that they "prove that they're not." That's the only "logic" that seems to work for the whack-jobs around here.
3
Maybe I should be arguing with a toaster. Let's use your example. And, to simplify, let's assume that no one logs in or logs off HS over the course of the time you play the six games you mention here. You and your first opponent each go 2-4 over your first six games. (It's not clear by the way you wrote this, so I'm assuming the other guy's first win, game 2, is one of the five games you mention when you say "same happens to the other guy." If your first opponent in your example has played 7 games, he's 2-5.) Purely by mathematics, at least 1 person MUST have a winning record over those 6 games. You two are, collectively, 2 games below .500. Someone (and as many as 2 people) must be above .500. Period. And you have no explanation for how this is possible. Because your argument is absurd.
The only other way to read your argument is that you are claiming that, once you win a game, HS matches you with decks that are heavily favored against you. But, even then, for every game you drop below .500, someone must move a game above .500 (again, assuming no change in the population of players). And, again, your conspiracy theory can't account for that.
0
Funny, it's not obvious to me, and I've been playing this game since just before Blackrock Mountain. And you do know that if you get a crappy matchup, the other guy has gotten a great one, right? Why does Blizzard like him and hate you? Maybe he's one of us, you know, the secret Blizzard employees who are being paid to discredit all of you brave seekers of the truth.
2
You want me to prove Blizzard is NOT rigging the system? You know that it's not possible to prove a negative, right? I don't consider Blizzard "holy." I consider it a sensible, risk-adverse corporation that understands there's no meaningful upside to manipulating the MMR or RNG, and a huge downside.
As for investigations, those are typically launched based on, wait for it, EVIDENCE. You know, the stuff you can't be bothered to collect? "Everybody knows" is not evidence. Hideous streaks of bad luck are not evidence. Deranged ideas of evil corporations trying to scam $20 off you is not evidence. Actual hard numbers are. Do you draw card X more often against one deck than another? Does your opponent draw his card more often than percentages say he should? That's real evidence. And you've got none.
2
It might surprise you, but there's this silly little thing called intellectual property. See, when someone spends substantial amounts of time and money creating a product (such as the MMR), they tend to not like the idea of other people, you know, reviewing it. Allowing outsiders access to the code is a great way to have it leaked. Once leaked, competitors will emulate/ refine it, and players/ hackers will exploit it.
And exactly who is going to do this "independent investigation" of the RNG? The government? You know there's no "Department of Game Investigation," right? Who's going to pay for it? You? If Blizzard paid for it, you'd reject the findings instantly.
If you and the rest of the tinfoil hat crowd want to do an investigation, go for it. Publicize your methodology, record your games so we know you're telling the truth, collect your data, and test your hypothesis. It's funny: every time someone dares you nuts to do this, you always find a reason not to. Or you play a few dozen games and pretend that proves anything. "I got 4 Galakrond rogues IN A ROW! RIGGGGGGGED!"
I find your signature amusing, since your questions lack courage and your answers lack depth.
0
Shhhhh. You're making sense. You must be part of the conspiracy.
2
"Brand new account?" Look at my profile, genius. Do you see the place where it says "Member for 4 years?" That means I was here while you were in kindergarten. Or is it your deranged belief that I'm a "sleeper account" that only now, because you're onto us, has been turned on? ("Attention, Blizzard control. This is secret agent #3546, aka TallStranger. For the next two weeks, make sure that username tinfoilhatilluminati draws nothing but control Priests who rope every turn. We gotta get this guy off our tail. He knows too much.")
Notable you didn't address the specific quote from McCall. Probably because it's beyond your understanding. Let me type slower, so you can follow. Suppose I invest millions of dollars in a company that advertises its products as 100% natural. Company does well, so I'm happy. THEN, a senior manager comes out and admits that this claim is completely untrue, and always has been. Stock price plummets, and the feds start an investigation (false advertising, securities fraud, etc.). My investment loses 3/4 of its value overnight. Do you know how fast I'd be suing?
All it would take is one former Blizzard employee to reveal this fact to devastate the company. Those are facts. I'm sorry they don't line up with your fever swamp delusions about how big companies actually operate, but those of us with experience in the real world know better.
That said, I can't blame the others for giving up. You can't have a logical argument with someone who a) can't provide real evidence for his claim and b) insists his opponent prove a negative. They're better off trying to argue with their toaster.
2
First off, can the "disingenuous" crap: I have no more connection to Blizzard than you do one of its competitors. Accusing me of being in on the vast, shadowy conspiracy to keep you from achieving the 85% win rate you so clearly deserve because of your awesome Hearthstone skill just shows that you're not capable of a reasoned argument. As for naive, trust me: I know more about how corporations behave than you do.
As for manipulating matchmaking see: http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/2177-is-matchmaking-rigged-max-mccall-explains-the, in which McCall clearly states that the MMR "doesn’t know what deck you’re playing, what deck you just played with or against, or anything else, except for your rating." The article is a few years old now, but that fact changes nothing. If this were a lie, Blizzard would still be liable, to the tune of tens of millions of dollars in fines, attorney fees, and out-of-court settlements. Clear enough for you? (Of course it won't be.)
As for investors, what they want is accurate information and a safe investment. In their view, if you're rigging the matchmaking, say so. If you're not, say so. But saying one thing and doing another? That ticks them off. And Hell hath no fury like an investment firm lied to. In addition, the marginal profit Blizzard would make by rigging the system is trivial compared to their total profits, and absolutely not worth the risk to market share or reputation. This isn't about Blizzard being "nice guys": honesty here is about cold, hard cash.
0
This is, I believe, only the second time I've ever posted here. I've read a dozen threads on this topic, but have refrained from commenting because it seems so utterly hopeless trying to convince people of painfully-obvious facts. THERE IS NO RNG MANIPULATION OF THE KIND BEING DISCUSSED HERE. Period. Slice of pi did a great job of explaining the fundamental flaws in the conspiracy argument. I'll only add one more: lawsuits.
Blizzard/ Activision is a publicly-traded company worth somewhere in the vicinity of $20 BILLION. They have stated publicly that they do not adjust/ tamper with the RNG. Do you understand the risk they are taking if they are lying about this? Numerous institutional investors (mutual funds, etc.) have invested in the company. If it were revealed that they WERE manipulating the RNG, the stock price would crash and every one of those investors would be suing them for providing false information that artificially inflated the stock price. And, by the way, the SEC would be on these guys in a heartbeat. All it would take is one angry ex-employee whistle blower to inflict massive financial to the company. For absolutely no meaningful economic benefit.
I realize this description doesn't match with the picture of corporations pushed forth by dumb Hollywood movies, but the truth is they are incredibly cautious in real life. They have no interest in making Bubba lose once again to a Galakrond rogue.