Hearthpwn

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

They are limiting gold to f2p players to try to get them to buy packs. I guess the few suckers who pay to win in this game did not feel they had enough of an advantage. 

Many f2p players are considering playing wild only, battlegrounds only or leaving the game entirely, Standard will be filled with p2w players and bots. Enjoy that. 

 Sigh, not again. So you have proof that they're limiting gold to f2p? Of course not. Still spewing the same old nonsense. Still without a shred of evidence.

To respond to OP: Since there's really nothing else you can buy with gold, and since they're still rewarding you with gold under the new system, it seems clear you will still be able to purchase card packs with gold. Per one of the designers "In nearly all circumstances, you should be able to earn slightly more gold and more non-gold (card packs, etc)" under the new system. But we still do not know the details of how quickly you'll earn XP, how much XP you'll need to move from one level to another, etc. Until we know that, we can't do a thorough analysis of the impact of the change on most people.

100 packs, huh? Funny, in your first post, you said 80-100. Now who's moving the goalposts?

Whatever, dude.

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

@tall stranger

I am not sure if you are not comprehending my post or are just being willfully obtuse. By the general ability to communicate you show, I will assume the latter. But I will try to speak simply in case it is the former.

P2P already has the advantage of fielding pretty much any deck they want. This is already a huge competitive advantage, if as a spender you want more of an advantage than that.....it just makes me kinda sad for you, F2p has to be very careful about what they craft as metas shift frequently with patches.  Reaching legend is not always a choice for fun, I was quite happy for years getting to rank 5 to claim the top rewards for the month, only getting to legend a few times just to make sure I could. When blizzard put pressure on f2p to grind legend by moving the monthly rewards, that is when fielding a legend capable deck every month became more important because those free rewards that you can grind are immensely important for a f2p player to keep pace in this game.

One thing about this game is that it punishes playing the same deck over and over. Whether you choose to believe it is an algorithim that is countering your deck on purpose or you are just unlucky that your pocket meta has shifted such that you run only into counter decks who get nut draws for quite a while, I am not here to engage in that debate this time. But I will assert that you need more than one legend capable deck to make legend each month consistently. Opening 80-100 packs on release enables me to do that, opening 40 -50 packs on release does not. 

You seem disingenous in your arguments in that on the one hand you state we don't know if gold is going to be choked in the new system for f2p and then on the other hand you state that it is right and good that gold should be choked for f2p because those paying customers deserve their bought and paid for advantage. 

The reason people complain about this is because Blizzard is breaking the fundamental deal they made with players up front. Which is that a f2p is able to compete on ladder, they now seem to be moving the goalposts so that this will no longer be possible. If blizzard had built this game that way up front, then many of us would have skipped this game entirely, no harm no foul. Let the p2w whales have their pretty colors and elaborate slot machine that rewards them for spending and maybe code some realistic bots so they can feel as if they have skillfully won a game.

The point of posts such as mine is to point the problem with this approach out before it is implemented. Someone in the forum posted that blizzard has already increased the amount of gold in response to the negative feedback they received on the initial survey. I dunno if this is true, I hope it is. But my hope is that some people at blizzard have enough vision to understand that if they kill the f2p players they will watch their whales leave them and be left with a dead game. It has happened time and time again in f2p/p2w games, and seems to be happening here as blizzard seems to be milking them for even more cash while taking away the viability of f2p in the hopes of converting some of them to paying customers. That is running a business for the quarterly profit margin rather than the long term health of the game. 

 

also: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck....it is prolly a duck

 

 Apparently reading comprehension is not your strong suit. My first post in this thread told you what I think the p2p advantage is: more dust, better cards. By definition, that means I can field a broader array of decks. (I cannot, as you say, "field pretty much any deck I want." Certainly not at what I spend per year.) Nowhere do I suggest that should change. I think the XP bonus that appears to be coming in the future is probably fair, depending on the details. Quite honestly, I don't know what other advantage would even exist. There certainly should not be a game play advantage (i.e. better RNG, extra mulligan, etc.). Nor is anyone here advocating such an advantage. If you think the current advantage is unfair, then I'm sad for you.

Similarly, NOWHERE did I say it was "right and good that gold should be choked for f2p." That's an absolute, bald-faced lie. Period. And the fact that you're deliberately misrepresenting me speaks volumes about your intellectual dishonesty. In fact, if you actually read my posts, you'd see that my view is that the best way for f2p to compete with p2p is by playing a lot more, thereby earning the gold they need to buy packs, get dust, etc.

The entire rest of your rant is, quite frankly, based on complete ignorance and misinformation. Contrary to your claims, Blizzard has not "given up on the gold economy," as one can clearly see in the reddit discussion (not sure we're allowed to post links to outside websites, but the thread is called "Reward Track/ Tavern Pass rewards by level" and came out on reddit a few days ago). Since we'll continue to earn gold, it's reasonable to assume that we'll still be able to buy packs with it. You're assuming, based on the survey, that there will be a cap on gold and that you will, therefore, not be able to buy more than 40-50 packs on release day. That's almost certainly NOT true, given that we're going to earn 150 for each level we reach beyond 50. Why would Blizzard make that your final reward if it intended to cap your gold earnings? It makes zero logical sense. But then you didn't think about that, did you, sport? Yeah, didn't think so.

As several people have said to you already (and you seem to have conveniently ignored), we don't know the details of the economy yet. But has that stopped you from spouting off a bunch of ignorant nonsense? Of course not. Why bother thinking when you can just spew bile?

Quote from yoop >>

@Tallstranger

f2p dont pay why should they get to have fun... and dude there's more than just USA and it's array of political/economical/financial/social/etc systems on this dam earth...

its pretty clear ur way of thinking so it's really no point for me to continue this. 

 No, there's no point in you continuing because you demonstrably don't know what you're talking about.

Quote from yoop >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

There are several affordable decks that can hit legend, if you're willing to put the time into it.  The biggest advantage paying players have is that they can play a wider range of decks, since they have the dust and cards to do so.

5) As for your declaration that HS is dying, yawn. I've heard this claim for years now, usually from someone who says exactly what you do: "I've been around a long time, I've seen this before, yada, yada, milking whales, yada, yada." Remember when all we heard was how "Gwent is going to destroy HS"? How'd that turn out?

 dude, sorry to say it but this is BS talk...how do u expect some1 who plays HS for fun (like the vast majority of us) play the same 2-3 decks over and over again for 3-4 months. i did go for legend 1 month, i did spam 1 deck and made me intoxicated with HS for the rest of the expansion (2 months of logging in just for dailies). i feel like most of the ones who're playing out there can agree with this statement. 

The truth is that we need eachother, f2p needs p2p to pay for their game and p2p needs f2p to have with whom to actually play the game. And, as Daulphas said it before : "F2P and P2P NEED to be able to play the game on EQUAL footing and have an EQUAL chance of winning their matches." I would also add that both f2p and p2p players should have access to the same cards during one expansion.

The most fun i had in HS was during open beta when every1 was making their own decks almost and there was such a diversity that u didnt know in advance how ur matchup will unroll or concepts like playing around certain cards and stuff like that. This min-maxing mentality is ruining every game out there not only HS, but for HS's case its especially prevalent cuz of the card collection restrictions we all have.

The guys at Hearthstone Mathematics (who i think we all agree that they know their statistics) are the ones saying the game is dying and they are also the ones who come up with some very interesting solutions like having a 3rd form of card (besides normal and golden) for the p2p customers. And i think we dont need them to tell us how unfriendly this game is for a newcomer (even with the poor effort from bli$$ that they made after so many years by giving the free deck. It's to little and definitely to late)...

The beef i have with bli$$ (as a f2p) is that they're misleading on purpose (with all their ID's not only HS) and they put in the minimum amount of effort (at least that's how it seems to me) but demand more and more $$...and for all those who come in here and shout there's nothing wrong with a company making profit i say yes, there is nothing wrong when the profit is within decency, otherwise in the real world they are put in place, checked in and whatnot by specific authorities who's role is exactly that, to stop companies from being/becoming too greedy...

paying is HS is a choice yes, but when being able to have fun in a game (which for me means playing various decks during the 4 month expac lifespan) implies more or less me having to pay between 150 $ - XXX $ per year for it then i say......heck, no game out there is this level of expensive cmon....

 Are you playing for fun, or trying to ladder? If the former, there's no reason you need to only play 2-3 decks. An f2p player who saves up a sizable stockpile of gold and buys 70-80 packs on expansion day should be able to play at least the budget version of several new decks, plus an updated version of decks he's currently playing. Take tempo mage: the high cost version will run Astromancer Solarian, Chenvaala, Ras Frostwhisper, and Jandice Barov. Deck would cost you at least 10K dust. But there are several much cheaper versions for those who don't have all those cards. I found one on this site that costs 2K. Sure, your winrate will be lower, but you can still play it and have fun. Now, if you're trying to ladder, then yes, you'll have to focus on a smaller number of more refined decks. But, again, it's entirely doable if you learn your deck and are willing to spend enough time playing.

Not sure what you or he meant by f2p and p2p having the same chance at winning their matches. Holding everything else equal (player skill, luck of the draw), more often than not the guy with better cards will win. If you want that not to be true, then you're smoking something. That's an advantage p2p SHOULD have. Take that away, and there's little reason to buy packs. If, on the other hand, all he's saying is that the RNG should not be manipulated to help p2p players, I agree. There's also no evidence to suggest it is. As for "access to the same cards during one expansion," again you're not clear. They already do. If you want a card, craft it. Unless you're suggesting that Blizzard say "For the next 4 months, you can use all the cards from this expac. Once the new one launches, you go back to your existing collection." If that's what you want, again you're smoking something.

And your profit rant is absurd. You have zero qualifications to determine what "decent" profits are, nor to demand that Blizzard limit themselves to them. If you dislike how profitable they are, take your business elsewhere. And your "otherwise in the real world they are put in place, checked in and whatnot by specific authorities who's role is exactly that, to stop companies from being/becoming too greedy..." is nonsensical and shows that you know exactly nothing about the government and its role in the economy. This may shock you, but there is no "specific authority" to "stop companies from being/ becoming too greedy." The closest thing to what you're talking about is anti-trust enforcement aimed at preventing monopolistic behavior. But Blizzard is not within light-years of being a monopoly, so it doesn't apply here. Something you'd know if you spent any time in the actual working world.

Quote from 3nnu1 >>

@tall stranger

I see you in this forum on occasion playing the part of a paying customer who thinks paying a is a great idea. You claim that paying customers should have a competitive advantage over non paying customers. And they do, they always have had that advantage. They have more cards, more dust, more resources to craft. They also got other rewards, skins, gold cards, early access etc.

But it seems to bother you that a lowly free to play can still consistently make legend and open 100 or so packs on release day. It seems that you and blizzard have decided that this is not right, that a free to play should not be able to compete with the spenders or enjoy a release of a new expansion. That a player should have to pay for that experience. 

This is when the mask comes off and blizzard drops all pretense of this being a game. It is a gamelike experience designed to stimulate spending. And to view it as anything else is pure foolishness. A free to play player already could never dream of playing hearthstone competitvely. A shifting meta and multiple deck requirements rendered this goal DOA. But I guess being a part of the competitive scene was not enough of a motivation to spend, nor were the shiny baubles and early access. People were not spending enough. 

So blizzard decided to leverage the last thing they had left, release day. Now if you don't buy the pay to the pay to win pass and/or pre-order you are going to have a sad release day. You will likely need to dust cards (a terrible decision in hearthstone, a losing proposition 90 percent of the time) in order to build 1, max 2 competitive decks on release. SInce Blizzard is committed to frequent nerfs/patches to constantly shift the meta, most f2p players will simply no longer be able to compete in standard once some time has past and stored resources are used up. 

I suggest that the f2p players leave standard behind. Sure make decks, sure take a swing, but don't allow yourself to get caught in a frustration loop and allow the engine to constantly beat you with cards you don't have to hopefully goad you into buying more packs or crafting said card. The engine will just move on to beating you with the next card you don't have anyway. 

Also notice that blizzard is moving the goal post on the spenders as well. That mid season card dump is going necessitate that those spenders spend more in order to keep up.  This game is going to get more expensive for them, so have fun laughing at them as dump 100's of dollars on a dying game. I have been around these games for a long time, I have competed at a very high level in some and have spent money on some of them when I thought the game gave an honest return on investment. Hearthstone is entering the milking phase. They are going to try to get as much money as they can out of their existing whales, because their efforts to bring back players with DH failed and there will be almost no new players coming in the future due to the prohibitive cost to compete. 

  

 

 Nice cheap shots, dude. Too bad you're completely wrong about me.

1) I'm going to ignore your snide little "playing the part" remark as just another feeble attempt to cast me as some shill for Blizzard. But I think paying is neither a good thing or a bad thing. It's a choice. And, as you've acknowledged, paying customers should have an advantage. The only question is "how big an advantage"? In my view, it should be significant, but not overwhelming. And, as an earlier poster mentioned, that advantage can be (and should be) made up for by playing more. An f2p player who plays enough to earn 30 WINS a day should have an advantage over me, who rarely can PLAY more than 10-15 games a day. That's also fair. Put simply, Blizzard wants you to either pay for an advantage or play a lot (or both). It benefits either way.

2) Why would it bother me if an f2p makes legend? I think it's great, if that's what they want to do. For some people, laddering matters. To others, it doesn't. I've personally never seen the value of hitting legend, but if that's what you enjoy, go for it. (I feel the same way about Battlegrounds. I find it beyond pointless, but some people love it. Good for them.)

3) Where exactly do I say that f2p shouldn't "enjoy a release of a new expansion"? YOU'RE the one who, with exactly zero evidence, are insisting that you won't be able to stockpile gold and buy lots of packs on the first day. (BTW, that's exactly what I do roughly every other expansion.) We don't know how much gold we'll be able to earn on average. We don't know how much XP we'll earn per battle. We don't know if the 10 gold/ 3 wins setup will continue. In other words, we don't have any actual understanding of the details of the HS economy. Yet you feel qualified to declare that it'll screw f2p. Provide actual EVIDENCE of this (apart from the survey which we already know is no longer accurate), rather than "big corporation always screws the little guy" rhetoric. As was noted in the reddit discussion, the survey had people earning 25 gold for each level over 100, but we now know that you get 150 gold. Rather sizable change, to our benefit (assuming they haven't changed the amount of XP needed to go to the next level).

4) Nor is it true that f2p players can't play "competitively" (if by that you mean reach high levels of the ladder). There are several affordable decks that can hit legend, if you're willing to put the time into it. The truth is that hitting legend is more about the amount of time you're willing to put into the game (and your skill) than it is about how big a collection you have. The biggest advantage paying players have is that they can play a wider range of decks, since they have the dust and cards to do so.

5) As for your declaration that HS is dying, yawn. I've heard this claim for years now, usually from someone who says exactly what you do: "I've been around a long time, I've seen this before, yada, yada, milking whales, yada, yada." Remember when all we heard was how "Gwent is going to destroy HS"? How'd that turn out?

Quote from yoop >>

Quote from SirJohn13 >>

Quote from user-31021151 >>

And that's all that needs to be said about it, gold is the most important, everything else is irrelevant. 

The main reward apart from gold that the new system will be offering is card packs from the latest expansion. Which happens to be the single most valuable thing one can buy with gold anyway. In what world is that irrelevant?

 i feel like the bli$$ white knights are out and hard at it this time around. bottom line is we'll just have to wait and see, but then again when did bli$$ did smth for us and not for their $$ benefit...lets not beat it around the bushes, there's a reason why so many ppl left this company, including the CO-founder himself lol.

and, as an entitled brat said somewhere in this topic, why should the enjoyment of f2p "2nd class citizens"  be equal to the paying customer experience lol

 Complaining that a company is doing something "for their $$ benefit" is just plain nuts. THEY ARE A FOR-PROFIT COMPANY. They are not a charity. They have a responsibility to their shareholders to, you know, make money. I realize that there are a huge number of people on this forum who seem to think that turning a profit is a bad thing. Probably were taught that by your Marxist English professor. But those of us in the real world understand that profits are what make jobs/ economic growth/ rising living standards/ etc. possible.

Also, perhaps this wasn't explained by Comrade Professor, but a company can increase profits WHILE ALSO increasing benefits to its customers. If you don't believe/ understand that, take a class from someone with an actual economics degree. Or get a job in the real world.

As for the "second class citizen" comment, the word choice was bad, but the simple fact is that paying players SHOULD have a meaningful advantage over f2p players. That's how companies incentivize purchasing so they can make a profit. (If confused, read the first paragraph again). Blizzard needs to give a big enough advantage to make purchasing worthwhile, but not so big as to drive f2p players away. I used to be f2p, now I buy 1-2 of the $50 expansion bundles each year. I should have an advantage (more dust, better cards) than someone who hasn't spent anything, and I should have a disadvantage compared to those who spend more than me. That's fair, and it's how the world actually works. People around here need to grow the hell up.

Quote from HatShapedHat >>

Quote from CrusaderRO >>

Roulettes are actually rigged, though :D

Most casino games are, if not all. They can't afford to leave their income to "chance".

 I don't think they are "rigged" so much as they are constructed in a way to give the illusion of giving the player better odds than what they really are.

 Correct. Casinos have no reason to "rig" roulette or any other game: the games themselves are built to make money for the house. They know that some people will get lucky and win big, but they also know that, in aggregate, they are making more money than they're paying out. (In fact, they like it when a few people win big, as it entices others to gamble more.) Depending on whether you're playing the European or American version of roulette, the casino's advantage is either about 2.7% or 5.2%.

This is true of all the card games/ slot machines/ etc. at a casino. Every game there has a negative expected value for the player. That's why the house always wins in the end.

Quote from HatShapedHat >>

Quote from PewPewPiew >>

The type of deck you play determines your opponent when climbing ladder. For example add a swamp ooze or a kobold stickyfinger and or even a wyrmrest purifier to your deck and you won't get warriors anymore for 50 games only 1 warrior and without them for 50 games 12 warriors. 

 

 

When I'm stuck in bumper to bumper traffic on the highway and decide to switch over to the lane which appears to be moving I always get stuck and the lane I just left becomes the one which starts accelerating...I personally think the highway department is conspiring against me but I'm interested to get your take on the matter.

 Really? Same thing happens to me when I'm at the store. Whichever checkout lane I choose is always the slowest! I think we've stumbled on something big. The conspiracy is deeper than we realize.

Not only that, each player takes a "turn." Clearly stolen from my kindergarten teacher, who taught us to take turns. Unbelievable.

I'm 100% certain you're either a troll or suffering from conspiracy-theory-itis. The only cure for this horrible disease is a trip to the Bermuda Triangle, followed by a visit to your local Freemason lodge. Just make sure you do it before the next full moon, or the Illuminati are going to hunt you down and turn you into a mole-person.

I'm in the same boat: every time I open a pack, then disenchant my duplicates, it happens. And, no, it's not a "big deal" but it is also something that shouldn't be a problem. Major issue? No. Annoying and fixable? Yes.

Quote from UtilitiesINC >>

Quote from Ummie >>

 

 

 

 Be carefull with what you say, there are some overheated fanboys who don't like these kind of comments.

I think it is not the class you play but the deck you play affects which opponent you will get.

 sigh... these kind of comments make you really sad. Grand observations with little information.

 Be careful with what you say, there are some overheated tinfoil hat boys who don't like these kinds of comments.

I think it is not the intelligence you have but the sanity you possess which affects what you think of Hearthstone's matchmaking.

IQuote from Friaka >>

I have opened a thread about this a few weeks ago and eventually found out about the China currency thing.

Still, have searched for the original announcement and found this:

https://hs.blizzard.cn/article/16/16952

The popup is clearly in chinese, but we have this error showing up in English, so Blizz has/had a plan to roll this out in US/EU, unless there are other English speaking countries which have it?

 Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but the fact that the it's written in English doesn't mean anything, IMO. There are a sizable number of English speakers living in China who play the game in English but are restricted by China's ridiculous "gambling" law.

I know people want to believe that they've stumbled across Blizzard super-secret future plans, but the odds of that are astronomically small. First off, this system bears no resemblance to any of the changes Blizzard has publicly indicated it's considering. It's really just a workaround to the Chinese restrictions, and would make no real sense for the rest of us.

Second, there's no indication that they've made a decision about what the new system will look like, and this screen has been popping up for a couple months, I believe.

Third, Blizzard would have to be completely insane to put this new system in an update BEFORE announcing it. There's a large number of folks out there who can peek inside an update and see what's in it. The last thing the company needs is to have this system leak before it's ready to announce it. In all likelihood, Blizzard will unveil the new system, seek reaction, possibly make changes, then announce when it will take effect. The update that implements the new system will probably not be released until shortly before the "take effect" date.

Quote from Geoff >>

Quote from TallStranger >>

 Did you read the actual test done by SinAscendant? The numbers simply do not support your claim. Do a real, statistically-meaningful test and you'll see that the effect is, in fact, random.

 I am not by any way imaginable gonna participate in this discussion, just stating one thing. What you are referring to is just a forum post. I could make a claim and then post random numbers to support it. I mean, it's not hard to fake (or corrupt) a literal scientific study, so even these you should always read open - minded, and here we just have a forum post of someone who might or might have not done, what he is saying he's done and might or might have not got the results he claims.

I mean, I really don't want to choose side in this discussion and I am not saying I don't believe this dude. Probably he did and probably he got the results he posted. I am just saying that his post is not worth more than OP and proves literally nothing.

Just be critical towards what you read. Peace.

 Yes, obviously, in theory he could be lying (though for what purpose, I have no clue). Just as, in theory, OP could be working for a rival of Blizzard, trying to badmouth the game. We can play this game of questioning each other's integrity all day. (Why are you REALLY posting? Who do you work for?) To have any reasonable discussion, you have to choose to believe that people posting here are telling the truth, as they understand it. Otherwise, you end up like some of the lunatics on this site, seeing conspiracies behind every bit of bad luck they experience in HS. I believe OP THINKS that DM is rigged/ bugged. Which is why he should do as I said: conduct an actual statistical test to see if he's correct. SinAcendent did that, and even offered to make the replays available. That's evidence, certainly better than OP or his supporters have offered. And if one assumes basic honesty on his part, it's very strong evidence. So, in point of fact, it IS more valuable than OP's post (again, given the necessary assumption that people are telling the truth).

If, on the other hand, you choose to believe that some people here are deliberately lying and others are not, then obviously proof of any kind is impossible. You could record yourself playing 10,000 games, meticulously collect the data, and demonstrate that it's random, and someone else will say "You're secretly on Blizzard's payroll and those games were rigged to cover up the company's lies." We've got wack-jobs on this site demanding that the federal government investigate whether matchmaking is rigged. If it did so (and it shouldn't) and found nothing, I guarantee you these same people will say "Blizzard paid the government off! It's still rigged!" When you're convinced everyone who disagrees with you is fundamentally dishonest, there's no way to be convinced otherwise.