Hammer of Wrath is the definition of a very balanced card. But it doesn't really... do anything. Paladin doesn't get much from cycling, and 3 damage after turn 3 is pretty underwhelming.
It's just one of those cards they copy-pasted into a couple of classes because they thought they'd want it. I think at one point, when Paladin had a bunch of 'change a minion's stats to 3/3' stuff the idea was to make Hammer of Wrath a little more impactful, but that never really happened.
It's one of those cards I think they should HoF or rework if/when they do a Paladin rework on the basic/classic set.
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ShadowAldrius posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: Paladin -
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VanHades21209 posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: PaladinI myself got now 5000 Paladin wins and consider myself a Pala main. I am playing wild, not standard, but even in wild you are right. you lack the identity, the fire and the fun. Paladin is nice, I mean there has to be a reason why I main it. And don't mistake me. I love the new quest. I made a very nice controlling reborn deck myself which works pretty decent. But as you said, the class feels clunky. And fuck yeah, no decent card draw at all. I am playing high defensive hardcontroldecks to win against most things. And that's the best I can do as Controldeck in Pala nowadays. But guess what? Every fucking combo deck eats me. Every fucking hardcore aggressive deck eats me. Every value cheating decks freaking eats me. I create my decks myself, I work at them, I make them unique and good. And I am proud of them. BUT I am suffering that much on ladder sometimes I wanna hang myself already. It's so good damn frustrating. The fifth game in follow against quest mage. You already now you are beaten. Then pirate warrior with perfect curve. Then millrouge with 20.000 N'Zoth. It's disgusting. Pala has several problems and thank God, I am not the only retard who does see this. Thank you for this essay my friend. Highly appreciate it. And no matter what let's keep the Paladin flag high in the wind. I will fight with honor!
PS: And don't you start playing this cancer mech or murloc shit. Then you abandoned the way of light. 😉
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Shaniss posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: PaladinYes our basic/classic set is currently underpowered garbage,remember when tirion was powerhouse ? yes me too,dont saw him in ages.
The fact that pure and libram archetypes got 0 direct support/new cards but instead we got this new clusterfuck of average cards only shows that HS design team either doesnt care or dont have idea,here i just dont understand how 2 promising archetypes which more or less fits paladin identity got ignored. Same with surge of trash legendaries in latest expansions.
I would love to see rework of basic set,and blizz focusing/supporting 1-2 archetypes per year for paladin,last year was clusterfuck trying to support few archetypes and all were meme/below average,hoped it will be different this year.
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Phoesias posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: Paladinwell written criticism.
I unterstand what you said due to the fact that Paladin has a lot of „unfinished“ archetypes.But for now, i rly think this is a great expansions for Paladin with some incredible powerful cards wich supports the already viable Libram / Pure Paladin Decks.
You can easily reach Legend with Paladin these days - without playing Murlocs.
But i agree, that Paladin needs more Love.
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Frijamabob posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: PaladinThis post is on point
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H3rK posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: PaladinIt's not that paladin is weak, it is just too straight forward. You can not draw, that leaves 2 options: Aggro or Curve & pray mid-range, that's it. Libram Paladin is quiet viable and strong in my opinion, but man, it is so sloppy. You are forced to play on curve almost perfectly and get the best value out of your cards, since you know, what you see in your hand, that is what has to finish the game. There wont be battle rage topdeck to draw 4, no galakrond to draw 4 (1) cost cards, no skull of guldan refill or overflow, literally nothig. The deck works, I have a 64% winrate over 60 games with Pure pala, but the deck is so binary and has so low flexibility in actual gameplan, that it is sad.
Every architype paladin get lasts for 1 expansion, kinda similar to shaman. Paladin needs a total basic/ classic sett overhaul like priest for sure, out with the trash secrets and the filler garbage (5 mana ds spell lol) and gice interesting options, like those priest cards. -
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Wiggy_HS posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: Paladin0 mana sunwalker and Alura legandaries are broken for paladin, it's going to be one of the strongest classes in the new expansion.
Why? What's the wincon there?
Devout Pupil is basically better (not even strictly) Anubisath Defender. It probably doesn't come down on curve very often, and it's not game winning. High Abbess Alura seems better in pala than priest (less spells that screw you), but it's hardly game winnning. Certainly not broken.
Paladin might continue to be decent, but it's probably still going to be in aggro form due to their lack of consistent card draw and late game win conditions. Could be because Blizzard gives them something new every exp, like a toddler with zero attention span.
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FrustratedPallyMain posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: PaladinHammer of Wrath is crap at 4 mana, it would see play if it was 3. And so is Call to Adventure. People talked about including it after Aldor Attendant got reworked to 1 mana and it got cut very quickly. If either of them are as good as you guys say, please explain why they doesn't get run in any decks and why even the best players at Legend don't run them.
What's really funny is nothing that I suggested goes outside the boundaries of Paladin identity, yet you're accusing me of wanting cards outside Paladin identity. Plenty of "fast" damage nowadays is minion-based. Just look at Restless Mummy. When Witchwood was first released Paladin got a Rush card along with the other classes, and I believe this is the first expansion post-Witchwood where we've gotten a Rush card that we can use. Paladins have traditionally been about minion combat, Rush uses minions as removal and establishes board at the same time - the mechanics aren't conflicting. Neither is card draw outside Paladin identity, yet you're accusing me of whining and wanting something that shouldn't be available.
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ShadowAldrius posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: PaladinMake one of the best statlines in the game into a Senjin Shieldmasta that doesn't have Taunt is an amazing card, isn't it?
Wait, what?
Using Call to Adventure to pull your 1 drop is pretty. It techs it out fast, it's got a good statline -- 3/5 for 4 is average and because it cycles doesn't really have a card cost, it thins your deck by a card.
It could probably have been a 2 mana card, but it's really not that bad.
The biggest issue is the core set. The secrets (and this applies to Hunter and Mage too) have no focus, and the pay off for them is really arbitrary. Compare that to the Rogue Secrets, which have very clear focuses and the punishments are very clear. Your opponent tries to develop a board, you respond with a 2/3 poisonous minion. They try to play spells to gain value, you draw cards. They try to make effective trades, you replace your minions with bigger ones.
Some of the Paladin secrets don't even make sense or your opponent can punish you for even playing them. And then there are super wonky cards like Holy Wrath. Truesilver Champion is weird too. It's an aggressively stated weapon that heals you. Why? -
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FrustratedPallyMain posted a message on The Paladin class needs a rework.Posted in: PaladinMy post wasn't flaming in the least. It was critical. I even went back and read your OP/rant. All my points stand.
And in libram deck there are 4 draw cards auto include, and 2 cards that refill your hand. Resources are not an issue for paladin ATM.
The only draw cards which are auto includes in Paladin are your two Hand of Adals. Please don't suggest Call to Adventure, that card is garbage. Make one of the best statlines in the game into a Senjin Shieldmasta that doesn't have Taunt is an amazing card, isn't it?
On Lightforged Crusader: let's skip by the problem inherent in Pure (Bombs/Albatross tech utterly ruins it and being forced to use a very narrow and underwhelming card pool) and focus on the card itself, it generates 5 class cards. So you get a bunch of spells and minions. Most of the spells you get from Lightforged don't help. They're usually buffs and Secrets. Buffs don't help swing board states unless you have a token left on board which can attack, Secrets are garbage in general. All the minions in Paladin are slow as fuck. It's a good card to play when your board is ahead but if you fall behind, you can't turn things around with this card unlike the other classes who can pull removals and board clears to pull the board back from a losing position.
The biggest two problems in Paladin right now is lack of good card draw which makes the mini-combos they have useless and inconsistent. Hand of Adal merely replaces itself, it cannot dig for answers. Lay on Hands is too expensive for what it does. Card generation is unreliable and rare; most of it is restricted in ways that make it not very useful, generating tokens for the most part (First Day of School, Bronze Herald, etc) and spell generation (i.e. Vulpera Scoundrel) which in other classes can provide win conditions and removal to flip board states is completely useless because the spell pool is so diluted. This makes it completely impossible to maintain meaningful card advantage.
The second problem is the lack of "fast" damage cards. Warrior, Rogue, Hunter, Mage, Priest, Warlock etc can play Rush minions, destroy cards, damage cards. Paladin gets very little of this (Turalyon is, if I recall, the first Rush card we're getting since Witchwood). When other classes can deal with enemy boards at any time, Paladin has to play your stuff and give up initiative to the opponent to pick and choose their best trades, hope the stuff you played survived, and then try to take advantage of stat manipulation and buffs to get a good trade in. How is a board centric class supposed to maintain board presence without having means to affect the board efficiently? It makes 0 sense.
This expansion was greatly disappointing as Blizzard either seem unwilling or unable to print any cards to alleviate these issues. We got a few good cards like Argent Braggart and Goody-Two Shields, but again no card draw and no way to affect the board outside of solutions that have been tried over and over and have failed (stat sticks and buffs). It's a frustrating class to try and make work.
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God I didn't even talk about the basic and classic set at length but you are so right. Secrets, weird small buffs, that god awful DS card they replaced divine favor with?
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Pretty inflammatory comment for not even reading the post.
Again the class isn't BAD in terms if winrates. It can win. It's bad in terms of design, for the reasons I went into. The support cards this expansion are FINE, but it's more of the same, nothing to shore up the glaring flaws in the class. I said it above but 2 Card maybe clear the board if not sticky minions exist is OK with draw to support it, but there's no draw at all. Also, Pyro can't be played in Pure, the only viable non-aggro paladin list.
I made this thread for real feedback, there's no need to throw insults.
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Welp here comes the feedback, ill try to respond to people I see
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The title says it all. I just hit 3000 wins with Paladin, and I can say unequivocally that it is the worst designed class in the game, possibly in any card game I've ever played. This latest card reveals stream solidified it in my mind that Blizzard has no idea what they're doing when it comes to designing the class, and doesn't care.
Don't mistake this for a 'paladin is bad' thread, HS replay shows that paladin has several competitive decks. What Paladin doesn't have is healthy, fun decks, both to play and to play against. There are several main drawbacks to the class: No card draw, no good aoe, no good way to leverage a good board state, and no win conditions. In this I will go over the major drawbacks of the class, and what needs to change going forward. Apologies if this gets a bit rant-y at times.
And again, I'm not saying the class hasn't had success in the past. But it's success was in large part through unfun and toxic strategies
1. The Draw Problem.
Every game is draw dependant in Paladin, more so than any other class in I believe any other card game, period. They have little to no efficient card advantage, either from draw or other generation effects. This is compounded by the fact that paladin has no 1 card board clear outside of 4 mana deal 2 to all, a classic card that has been power crept out by the meta years ago. Their removal is based on card combos, which is had to do when the class has 0 card draw to get to these removal peices. Historically, that meant shoring up the board clear spot with WIld Pyromancer, but now the only real viable paldin archetype is pure, leaving no room for Pyro to help clear. And when they do hit the equality/libram combo, the removal is less efficient being a 2 for X, and there's no way to restock your hand safely. 7 mana 7/7 generate 5 cards, maybe 3 of them decent, with no direct damage or cheap rush/taunts? 3 mana 3/1 draw 2 bad cards from your deck when it dies? 7 mana 4/6 Get a bunch of buff spells in your hand? All of these options are slow, clunky, or bad, forcing paladin to run high value minions to try and keep up tempo on board and get efficient trades. However, in control decks that leaves their hands far too full of removal combos and large minions to do anything with the bizarre generation effects they do have access to. You can;t get 5 random cards in hand or a hand full of 0 mana 8/8's when you have 2 card board clears in had you're saving for a swing turn. In short, Paladin needs more efficient boardclears, a buff to the clears they already have, and a way to get cards that's in theme for the class. Comparing Paladin to the White color in Magic the Gathering, the developers of that game have admitted that card draw is too important a mechanic to leave out of one class entirely, and the same is true here.
2. Identity Crisis and Lack of care from Blizzard
Divine Shield. Murlocs. Minion Buffs. Handbuffs. Secrets. Big Spells. Healing. Dragons. Reborn. Librams. Pure. Silver hand Recruit. Big minions. 1 Heath minions. Mechs, both small and big magnetic. 2 different OtK decks.
The most telling part of all of this isn't the multitude of archtypes, it is the lack of support from expansion to expansion. Oh so we're doing secrets now? ok, lets o- oh nevermind no good secrets and no refill because Divine Favor is baned. Oh ok, so we're doing a buff theme? great we have plenty of- Oh the quest is slow garbage with an easily removable payoff and we got no more support cards for it? Alright, at least this even deck seems midrange and fun- oh it's the best card was nerfed? cool, how about Reborn? Little out of theme but cool card generation and- oh the best card for the deck rotated and we got 1 new reborn minion in the last 3 expansions? Awesome, how about Handbuffs? make things big and- oh I'm dead already because I played a low tempo game and got cleared when I did finally get my big card out? Alright, how about healing? We use weapons, we can leverage- Oh 0 good cards for healing payoffs, and a deck that only work if you draw 1 legendary and the rest of the deck perfectly? Nice. But what about Dragons. Dragons are big and cool and- Oh I got brawl'd and killed by Dr. Boom value from the hero power, and I can't play anything good till turn 6? nice. Librams are a great new tool though! Few more of those and- oh 0 new libram cards this expansion? Ok. But 1 health minions, now there's where it's at! Fast-paced, tempo draw, with- oh no more 1 health synergy payoff cards printed since? Ok, silver hand recruits can be good! Lets just- oh the buffs are spread out over 3 different expansion blocks and we can't play them in standard? Ok, how about big paladin! Big, meaty cards with duel and- Oh, 0 good payoff cards, 100% draw dependant, super expensive cards that clog your hand, and the opponent kill the card immediately getting a 2 for 1 leaving you even further behind, AND I can't play small minions to stabalize? But come on Pure is gonna be great! Thematic and- oh only 2 supporting cards in 3 expansions, and makes it so you can't run Wild pyromancer? Big MEchas are cool though! Kangors to being back monsters and- Oh the best magnetic cards summon 1/1 tokens that take up resurrect spots, and the only payoff card is 1 legendary spell? Otk is pretty fun, lets try- oh, both types lose to every aggressive deck and was inconsistent as hell? for Ok, so what do we have?
Oh but we found some Murlocs in the corner you can keep, some aggro zoo mechs on the side. He're the most universally hated deck in the game ever, Odd paladin! So easy a monkey can play it. Oh you want something actually fun? Well, just for you, here's a vanilla 6 mana 4/9 with lifesteal for the area, and an unplayable, 7 mana, even worse Duel to get it out with! Not like we printed a card that ignores taunt or anything. Oh and if you're thinking about saving up cards to play these expensive "bombs", don't worry, because demon hunter will force you down to 4 cards anyways while they draw 4! A better Divine favor! You remember Divine Favor right? The best card you had, and the only card draw in the entire base set, that we banned because it was 'too strong'? Good times. Oh, got to go, We've giving mage 10000 spell damage cards to kill you from 30 and Druid infinite mana, enjoy your 8 mana 3/9 maybe kill 1 minion.
This has been said, but the class has 0 identity, 0 support across expansions, and is the last thing Blizzard thinks about every expansion, cobbling together something to fill the card slots. I mean NO librams this expansion? No pure support, I'm not counting OK cards in the class as 'support', I mean payoff cards? None? No card draw, no aoe, hell at least they stopped printing secrets that wasted dust.
The only viable lists have been unfun, toxic aggro decks like 1 drop mech, Murloc, and Odd, braindead strategies that feel bad to play and bad to play against because of their draw dependence. Rare exceptions like Un'goro Silver hand paladin and GvG Midrange existed in the past, proving that the class CAN be fun, but the good decks were far and few between.
This biggest issue with the class isn't it cards, but the fact that Blizzard just flat out doesn't care about Paladin. It's like mainstream media, the class isn't 'sexy' like mage, priest or rouge, who do fun, random, wacky things, wow so cool! Fast-paced, damage, steal your opponent's stuff! Random spells, random minions gogogogo, Playing Paladin is like watching C-Span, boring, and not with the time or thought of the dev team. I can list a million examples. I mean for one, why in the hell did warrior get Restless Mummy instead of Paladin? It fits paladin and reborn so, so much better, and would have gone a long way to making the class much more fun to play. And maybe this one is just me, but why the HELL did paladin get Making Mummies instead of the priest quest? I mean healing a bunch and buffing minions is a PALADIN thing and playing with copies is a PRIEST thing, what gives? Why waste card slots every expansion before these last few with garbage secrets, when 0 paladin decks ran them in the first place? But again, blizzard doesn't care. Hell, Paladin and Druid are the only classes to not get a Hero card since KNIGHTS OF THE FROZEN THRONE. IN 2017. Lord knows druid does enough broken things to get late game value, but the sheer hatred the Dev team shows the paladin class is astounding, and these new reveals really showed that. Druid gets a card that can refill 10 mana and kill you in 1 turn, pre-nerf innervate, DH can draw infinitely, Warrior can clear the board with one weapon swing, hunter has a million and a half ways to kill minions, mage gets more AoE and spell damage synergy, Warlock gets massive new tempo and healing options, Priest gets even more broken resurrect combo's, Rouge gets a 1 mana draw 5, Shaman casts infinite spells, and paladin....plays a 6 mana 4/9 lifesteal. Kills 1 big thing on board for 8. 4 mana 4/2 maybe 2 divine shields. gets 2 1 drops in hand. Gets a guy out for 7 mana with some keywords that gets 2 for 1'd by every removal spell in the game. 5 mana buff a guy and get 2 for 1'd, again.
The class fodder for other decks and classes to pad their win rates against or get mad at for the degeneracy of play. I'm convinced the people who make paladin cards aren't shown what other classes are getting every expansion, the power level isn't even close to comparable. I spend my whole game getting a few 0 mana 8/8 taunt divine shields? Priest kills them all with 1 of 70 cards they have to kill big minions. Then generates a million more with galakrond. Or steals your cards and plays a better paladin deck than you. Rouge saps them, togwaggles gigantic threats over and over again, till you run out of cards. Demon hunter, forget it, you're dead long before you get to play any of them, and they'd ignore your taunts anyways, with efficient removal and insane pressure every turn. Or a shaman snowballs a totem in the early game because you have 0 removal spells and you effectively lose by turn 4. Warlock laughs in your face clears your board and had a full hand to beat you down with every game. Mage freezes them all and kills you with Zepher and face damage from spells.
And paladin got a 6 mana 4/9.
The thing is, paladin got 2 buffs to their cards this expansion, and they missed the mark HARD. Both did nothing to fix the underlying issues of the class, so they know something is wrong but somehow can't see what to fix. They nerfed equality, thinking that they could add better AoE options to the class, then they preceded to add 0 since that nerf. They took away divine favor and added 0 draw back to the class.
Every class has a weakness. Druid can't deal with big minions, Hunter can't restock their hand easily, rouge lacks healing. Paladin lacks card advantage, AoE, tempo, and late-game finishers. The only thing they're decent at is hyper aggression to offset lack of draw, and out healing face damage.
3. Conclusion
The class needs good card generation and AoE. Hell change the cards before this expansion drops, I don't care But don't sit there and give us a crappy duel deck that's another random archtype and think it can in any way keep up with the crazy crap you've given other classes. The class needs a rework to takeaways the secrets and replace them will divine shield synergy and Aoe. Play into the divine shield ability for resource generation like Blood Knight for card draw, rush divine shield minions to take better trades, anything decent that lets paladin set the pace of the game. Maybe deal damage for every divine shield you pop, a libram that gives divine shield and deals damage to all minions, anything to solidify a real identity with the class.
Please let me know any thoughts you have about this, I'm seriously getting tired of Blizzard ignoring the issue and leaving paladin out in the cold.
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This is the single best non legendary minion ever printed for paladin outside the basic cards. this is INSANE. I have 2,500 wins with the paladin class, and control archtype, and what the class needed for the longest time was a second set of equalities for wild pyro and concecration cOmbo's. this could have been 6 mana and it would have been busted. its equality and sunkeeper tarrim and aldor rolled into one card and I love it, THANK YOU BLIZZ :D
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Unfortunately useless against control, horrible against combo, and bad against aggro due to its low stats. It's not even a mech that you can magnetize onto. Healing is a notoriously BAD mechanic for Paladin, as they cannot self damage enough efficiently to make use of the synergy. This is the second clunky legendary focused on healing in a row, and it will see just as little play as Glass Knight imo. At most its what, a firefly that heals you for 4 maximum by itslef? We need to see more support for this to work, and I'm praying we DON'T. Drop healadin blizzard, the archetype AUTO LOSES against 2/3 of the meta. Stick to secrets and divine shield, maybe this new Mech thing
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Marsh Drake to me is too unreliable to kill off the 2/1, so I'd recommend throwing in two copies of Nightmare Amalgam instead, better buff targets with blessing of kings, which as a minion focused deck this should also include I'd say of consecration. Overall, a fun deck design, you'll see me tearing up the rank 5 no star meta with this one
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Can y'all just let paladin be in the spotlight for a while? Shaman was busted, preist was busted, paladin hasn't been "busted" since TgT really, despite what people say about murloc paladin last rotation it was just decent compared to the levels of bs we see from cubelock and saw from raza preist, or god forbid face shaman. Just...just let me have this ok?!?
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I haven't really had this problem on latter at all, I'm a huge pali player but this expansion I moved to Hand Druid, and I dumpster on aggro decks. To be fair, for hand druid its insta-concede against any kind of combo/control deck, but its amazing anti-aggro.
Seriously, if Paladin is your problem, PLAY DRUID. Spreading plague, 5 mana 5/10 taunts, turn 3 8/8, The deathknight!! Super good anti-aggro tools. Play Lunara and when they surrender just hit them with the "I appreciate your efforts" and laugh maniacally
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Looking away from the cards and to the picture, It seems strange that the image shows the legendary, THEN another card, presumably a copy of the legendary, behind it faced down. But that's the thing, legendaries we see in HS always appear alone when compared to other epics, rares, and neutrals, because only one copy is allowed in a deck.
To me, this looks like someone made these in a card-creator, and didn't bother to take away the behind/background cards, then took a shaky picture on their phone
.....orrrrrr maybe its real and I'm nitpicking because that paladin card looks trash and it makes me sad, either way